Victron controller ?

[PhilandMena]

My EC500 with factory fitted controller works fine and I'm happy with it's performance. However, I have never had anything else so possibly not competent to judge strengths and weaknesses. I just know mine has been working flawlessly since I fitted the S.P. a few years ago.

 

[aandncaravan]

Yes I understand your point but it is incorrect to speak of a battery master as a generic term and claim to have read the instructions

You are right, just that particular device has become the term for the genre, just like I refer to the workshop vacumn cleaner as a Hoover, when it's a Panasonic.

 

[eddie]

You are right, just that particular device has become the term for the genre, just like I refer to the workshop vacumn cleaner as a Hoover, when it's a Panasonic.

However, as you are a trader, posting against the rules you should be more careful about giving incorrect information, or mixing up products

 

[aandncaravan]

Vanbitz write:
"Some people in the trade come on these threads, as "members" despite the rules and make sweeping, incorrect statements, one can only assume for an ulterior motive".

Please can you explain exactly, what those, "sweeping, incorrect statements" are and what you think our ulterior motive is?

We made a claim about generic battery theft devices being less efficient when used with Solar, because they in themselves actually consume some of the power the user is trying to save.

We used the term 'Battery Master' to describe the way most of these work, when the actual 'Battery Master' product uses a voltage differential. That was the only 'error' that has been pointed out so far?

What we described was how these devices work, as oppossed to how people perceive them. That description applies to both those that trigger above a certain voltage and those that operate in the voltage difference principal.

In fact the devices that trigger above a certain voltage, like the CBE, are more efficient as they are only 'watching' one battery from which current is being drawn. The ones that watch both batteries looking for a difference in voltage of 0.75v, consume power from both batteries, even the one it is trying protect.
I just said there are better ways of doing it. Which is fact.

It is fact that in almost all situations the Battery Theft device is now not the best option.

Nobody has yet taken issue, and provided the evidence to back that up, with anything we said. JUST that we used the wrong 'name' when applied to the likes of the CBE, etc.
So not sure what you see as a sweeping incorrect statements that require you to make derogatory insinuations about our motives?

We openly state we are a trader.
The very fact we don't advertise any of our products on the Forum shows that our motive is not for commercial gain.
It is clear from the posts so far this month that there is zero commercial intent, all about help.

Most of our posting is on Batteries. WE DON'T SELL BATTERIES, but have removed thousands from Motorhomes and Caravans and have extensive experience with fault finding batteries and battery charging.

I would suggest your comments are both unfair and unfounded?

 

[EssexBoy]

My point was about the type of device, not a particular product, that they trigger not at the battery voltage, but the voltage at the battery, whether it is a voltage point or a voltage difference, they don't work as most people think. I said :
"But in reality as soon as any charging system starts charging the habitation battery, that will be the voltage at the battery terminals, so the trigger voltage will be 'seen' by the Battery master".

A battery theft device that starts passing current at a trigger voltage will do so when it 'sees' that trigger voltage at the battery terminals to which it is connected.
So even if the habitation battery is at 10v, if 14v is applied by any charger to the habitation battery terminals, the Battery theft device that uses a voltage trigger will starting stealing current when you may not want it to.
The description in most of the brochures talks about, "the battery voltage", but it is not always. That was the point I was making, the current doesn't always go where you would like it to.

The fact that some battery theft devices use a voltage threshold of differing voltage makes no odds, it will trigger when charging takes place as none of them can 'see' a batteries true voltage, only the voltage at the battery.

If the Starter battery is at 12.7v, and the habitation battery gets a 14.4v charge the theft device will trigger whether you want it to or not, regardless of it's trigger mechanism. Maybe not what you want if the actual Habitation battery voltage is 10v and you want to maximise everything to the Habitation battery.


Try it : run your battery down to 12.3v, put on a voltmeter and then put on the charger and watch the battery go up to 14.4v. Then try and use the multimeter to 'see' the batteries true 12.3v?
A higher voltage will 'swamp' a lower voltage so that all you can sample is the voltage at the terminals, which will be the charge voltage.


A duo battery Solar controller can accurately deliver the optimum charge to each battery and you won't end up with the situation where one battery is 0.75v more discharged than the other. There will also be lower losses.
It is a much more efficient process where BOTH batteries get the optimum and not one potentially 0.75v more discharged than the other. The charging priority is decided by charger, not two places.


Don't forget that any device that is actively 'watching' two battery voltages will be taking power from BOTH batteries. It may not be much a day, but over 6 months it will be.
This one fact makes them less efficient than a single Solar controller solution, and that was the point I made they are not now the most efficient way of getting Solar to the Starter battery.
But the standby current draw aside, every charger absorbs some of the energy to pass that power. I don't know how much is lost in the charge process, but it won't be 100%, so a 'double loss'.

When every tiny bit of power is important with Solar charging, to have something drawing off power unnecessarily, just doesn't make sense to me?


Philandmena, your option would be cheaper initially but not as efficient, so more expensive in the long term.
If he opts for a MPPT, it is the same as fitting a 25% bigger Solar Panel.
If he then later fits a second panel he can do so without the cost of a second Solar Charger.
Bypassing the Sargent, which can be located a fair way from the batteries often using thin gauge cable, will probably gain him another few tenths of a volt, which on a Winters day can make a difference.
.

I think I'm happy with the notion that a battery master type device gets triggered by an incoming voltage rise, but the bit that I don't understand is why it's "stealing" charge for the starter?
Surely if the starter needs charge it'll be given it (& I want it to have it) and if it's already fully charged then all the charge goes to the hab battery
A less-than-full starter is no use to me, surely ....

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[eddie]

Vanbitz write:
"Some people in the trade come on these threads, as "members" despite the rules and make sweeping, incorrect statements, one can only assume for an ulterior motive".


The very fact we don't advertise any of our products on the Forum shows that our motive is not for commercial gain.

You've got a bloody funny name then!

Your in the caravan and motorhome business trading under your name, supplying and repairing electrical chargers and solar controllers

 

[Spanner]

Inside the EC500 there is a C1210 aftermarket regulator, which your connecting to when you plug your solar panel into the rear of the EC500

I've just taken a photo of the external C1210 controller, I can't imagine Sargeant fitting another inside the EC500

 

[Techno]

Not even made in Taiwan like all good electronics
Bin it

 

[aandncaravan]

I think I'm happy with the notion that a battery master type device gets triggered by an incoming voltage rise, but the bit that I don't understand is why it's "stealing" charge for the starter?
Surely if the starter needs charge it'll be given it (& I want it to have it) and if it's already fully charged then all the charge goes to the hab battery
A less-than-full starter is no use to me, surely ....

Because it can be taken when you don't want it to be, hence the theft name.
For example if you have been on 'Habitation battery' all evening watching the Footie, when the sun comes up next day, you probably want maximum to go into the habitation battery? The Starter battery should get it's bit later in the day, once the Hab battery is charged.

A Starter battery that may already be 0.75v below the habitation battery (how is that good?) that is running an Alarm or has supplied the Radio the evening before, might be low. Not always fully charged. There are any number of scenarios. Don't forget that overnight the battery theft device is running down the Starter battery as well while you sleep.
When it does trigger, some of the charge will be consumed by the theft device in just passing the current. When we are only talking about small numbers of amps in the Winter, surely wasting any of it isn't what you want?


If you have one Solar controller charging both batteries, then 100% of the charge goes to the priorities YOU set. Nothing else consumes the power or changes the priorities.

Whether that works best for you or not, is your choice, but the Duo battery Solar solution will be more efficient.
Especially if it bypasses the EC500 and sits right next to the battery, rather than 5 metres away at the end of 'thin' cables.

When you could only buy a single battery Solar Controller 10 years ago there was no option but a battery theft unit.
But highly efficient MPPT dual battery regulators at affordably prices changed all that.



Eddie, Now I'm confused?
First you say we are acting covertly on here pretending to be non Traders with ulterior motives and now you are saying we are advertising ourselves via our AandNCaravan name??

If our name is so obviously Trade then your suggestion we are doing something wrong, stinks. Smacks of mud slinging to descredit the posters technical credentials?

For the record we haven't done Solar Controllers for a long time and have not done Solar Installations for a couple of years. Exactly as it says on the web site : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php on which page you will also find a distinct lack of commercial, but a lot of help.

.

 

[Spanner]

Not even made in Taiwan like all good electronics
Bin it

I can't see a downside to replacing the original controller with a Victron 10 amp MPPT controller and adding an extra panel.

This way the new controller will automatically limit the maximum solar energy to 10 amps to protect the Sargent EC500 which directs power to the required battery (both vehicle and leisure batteries) intelligently and I can still monitor the load and solar output via the EC480 display.

Taken from the Victron site

1a) If more PV power is connected, the controller will limit input power to the stated maximum.

I looked at the Taiwanese option but the smallest controller has a potential output of 20 amps
Link Removed

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[eddie]

Because it can be taken when you don't want it to be, hence the theft name.
For example if you have been on 'Habitation battery' all evening watching the Footie, when the sun comes up next day, you probably want maximum to go into the habitation battery? The Starter battery should get it's bit later in the day, once the Hab battery is charged.

A Starter battery that may already be 0.75v below the habitation battery (how is that good?) that is running an Alarm or has supplied the Radio the evening before, might be low. Not always fully charged. There are any number of scenarios. Don't forget that overnight the battery theft device is running down the Starter battery as well while you sleep.
When it does trigger, some of the charge will be consumed by the theft device in just passing the current. When we are only talking about small numbers of amps in the Winter, surely wasting any of it isn't what you want?


If you have one Solar controller charging both batteries, then 100% of the charge goes to the priorities YOU set. Nothing else consumes the power or changes the priorities.

Whether that works best for you or not, is your choice, but the Duo battery Solar solution will be more efficient.
Especially if it bypasses the EC500 and sits right next to the battery, rather than 5 metres away at the end of 'thin' cables.

When you could only buy a single battery Solar Controller 10 years ago there was no option but a battery theft unit.
But highly efficient MPPT dual battery regulators at affordably prices changed all that.



Eddie, Now I'm confused?
First you say we are acting covertly on here pretending to be non Traders with ulterior motives and now you are saying we are advertising ourselves via our AandNCaravan name??

If our name is so obviously Trade then your suggestion we are doing something wrong, stinks. Smacks of mud slinging to descredit the posters technical credentials?

For the record we haven't done Solar Controllers for a long time and have not done Solar Installations for a couple of years. Exactly as it says on the web site : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php on which page you will also find a distinct lack of commercial, but a lot of help.

.

I'm not arguing with you, you come on and slag off our Battery Master, giving incorrect advice

Your in the trade and the rules are very clear, so no mud slinging, just making it obvious to the boys and girls that your not just a member of the public

It's a simple concept that the Battery Master is tried and tested with 1000's and 1000's of them working with very happy owners

I know that your primarily "caravan services" which perhaps explains the fact your struggling to understand this, but the Battery Master is designed to ensure that you can start the Motorhome. Most of us would happily sacrifice a few milliamperes from our solar charge to guarantee this.

 

[eddie]

I've just taken a photo of the external C1210 controller, I can't imagine Sargeant fitting another inside the EC500View attachment 134583 View attachment 134584 View attachment 134585

No your right, if yours is outside then that will be the only one.

Many are fitted inside, with a plug onto the main imput.

 

[vin0114]

Some people in the trade come on these threads, as "members" despite the rules and make sweeping, incorrect statements, one can only assume for an ulterior motive

bit concerned here @eddievanbitz , people may think you are referring to me

 

[eddie]

bit concerned here @eddievanbitz , people may think you are referring to me

LOL Not at all. Just the trader that posted using his trading name, against the rules and quoted my product name with incorrect information about how it operates and then went on to explain why it wasn't the best way to do something (which is why ours doesn't work that way lol)

Eddie

 

[angusboy]

Would not be with out mine fitted by vanbitz

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[vin0114]

LOL Not at all. Just the trader that posted using his trading name, against the rules and quoted my product name with incorrect information about how it operates and then went on to explain why it wasn't the best way to do something (which is why ours doesn't work that way lol)

Eddie

Ta for that @eddievanbitz. Had lousy dull and very wet weather here over the last week and the van has been stood since we got back from Whitby on 6th November. Bugger-all amps coming from my 2x100w panels charging 3x90amp leisure bats through 30a MPPT but.....vehicle bat still being maintained 12v plus via the Battery Master It is amazing how much draw is taken by the EC500 monitoring and the vehicle's alarmed systems. We usually have to mains boost once a month during the Winter months and fortunately its up our drive so no hassle.

 

[PhilandMena]

Ta for that @eddievanbitz. Had lousy dull and very wet weather here over the last week and the van has been stood since we got back from Whitby on 6th November. Bugger-all amps coming from my 2x100w panels charging 3x90amp leisure bats through 30a MPPT but.....vehicle bat still being maintained 12v plus via the Battery Master It is amazing how much draw is taken by the EC500 monitoring and the vehicle's alarmed systems. We usually have to mains boost once a month during the Winter months and fortunately its up our drive so no hassle.

How odd! I too have 2x100 Ah leisure batteries and a 125 W S.P. I have recently fitted a bluetooth battery monitor and this shows when everthing is switched off there is no discharge from the leisure batteries.

 

[vin0114]

How odd! I too have 2x100 Ah leisure batteries and a 125 W S.P. I have recently fitted a bluetooth battery monitor and this shows when everthing is switched off there is no discharge from the leisure batteries.

My EC500 shows a permanent draw 0f -0.4amps which I believe is normal? Its dull again this morning and my panels are only putting in 0.9amps at the moment. I have not tried switching off the EC500 which presumably you do? which would indicate no discharge.

 

[Spanner]

My EC500 shows a permanent draw 0f -0.4amps which I believe is normal? Its dull again this morning and my panels are only putting in 0.9amps at the moment. I have not tried switching off the EC500 which presumably you do? which would indicate no discharge.

If you switch off the EC500 using the left button marked "system shutdown " that removes the drain, but note all the solar power goes only to the leisure batteries and if your are on hookup the EC500 needs to be on for mains charging to work.
Just now it's very sunny and a clear blue sky, our 80watt panel shows just 1.1 amp !

Apparently according to Sargent a drain of 0.2-0.4 amp is considered normal

 

[PhilandMena]

Right ! Just back from motorhome and have established the following with my Sargent system.
When the kill switch is switched in (off !) the 12 Volt system is isolated. No readout on control panel, No hab lights etc, etc, but i do have 240V at the sockets. Not sure if charger still works as I never have the kill switch in the off position.
With the kill switch on I have a draw of 0.2 Amps on the leisure battery according to my control panel, confirmed by switching S.P. over to cab battery and using my Bluetooth battery monitor. I have not seen this before because this small drain has been cancelled out by the S.P.

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[vin0114]

If you switch off the EC500 using the left button marked "system shutdown " that removes the drain, but note all the solar power goes only to the leisure batteries and if your are on hookup the EC500 needs to be on for mains charging to work.
Just now it's very sunny and a clear blue sky, our 80watt panel shows just 1.1 amp !

Apparently according to Sargent a drain of 0.2-0.4 amp is considered normal

That's what I thought you had done. I was concerned that shutting down the EC500 would affect my Battery Master because the solar charge controller that I fitted is wired directly to my leisure bats but they are wired in turn into the leisure bat connections inside the EC500. So maybe I'll try shutting down the EC500 and monitor both the leisure and vehicle bats. Got nice sunshine now

 

[vin0114]

Right ! Just back from motorhome and have established the following with my Sargent system.
When the kill switch is switched in (off !) the 12 Volt system is isolated. No readout on control panel, No hab lights etc, etc, but i do have 240V at the sockets. Not sure if charger still works as I never have the kill switch in the off position.
With the kill switch on I have a draw of 0.2 Amps on the leisure battery according to my control panel, confirmed by switching S.P. over to cab battery and using my Bluetooth battery monitor. I have not seen this before because this small drain has been cancelled out by the S.P.

Noticed same on mine when on mains with charger switched off still have live mains sockets.

 

[Gromett]

s, but the Battery Master is designed to ensure that you can start the Motorhome. Most of us would happily sacrifice a few milliamperes from our solar charge to guarantee this.

Got a Battery Master on my system which works exactly as advertised and does the job perfectly. I happily sacrifice the small amount of power to ensure my engine will start the next day.