Van electrics, help please!

[Downsie]

I am in dire need of information regarding the electrical set up in my Wildax Pulsar please.

It is nearly 3 years old and was supplied with one 110Ah Banner wet lead acid battery which needs periodic topping up. It has a CB516 charger, CBE PC380-BS control panel, and a Votronic VCC 1212-30 B2B.

The van was a pre order and I’m not sure whether the solar panel was supplied by Wildax or Southern Motorhomes. The solar controller is PWM for sealed, flooded or gel batteries made by EP solar. I was told if 2 lights were flashing it’s working fine! I have no documentation about the solar panel, think it might only be 60w. (Van only 5m, not a lot of room.)
I did ask to have an inverter fitted, as an absolute essential is daily use of a hairdryer! I was amazed to see they put in a NDS Smart-in 2000w inverter which I think is pure sine wave. It is wired to a dedicated socket nearby and is usually unplugged. I have been very loath to use it given the battery set up though I did test it when at home by running for 5 min which didn’t seem to have any effect of control panel voltage. I have no way of seeing amp hours available.

Usually I use EHU but would love to have sufficient confidence in the system to go off grid.
After much reading on Fun I do at least now understand most of the terminology but please be very gentle!
Best possible scenario would be to be able to slot a Fogstar lithium battery in, together with some way of knowing the state of the battery and the solar panel.

Opinions please.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

It's not a great idea to run an inverter off a lead acid battery. Your inverter could draw 160 to 200 amps from the battery at full power. I hope it's been fitted with some very thick leads and a fuse. The battery is not designed for that kind of load.

The good news is that the Votronic can be set for Lithium.

The bad news is that you'll need to change the solar controller, and (probably) the CBE mains charger.

Roadpro supply all the electrical equipment to wildax, and would be a first place to get a quote for the changes you want.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

Is this your solar controller? There's a manual at the link. https://midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/pwm-solar-regulators/LandStar-5A-USB-port

 

[Downsie]

Is this your solar controller? There's a manual at the link. https://midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/pwm-solar-regulators/LandStar-5A-USB-port

No, it’s as in the photo below.
I’m glad someone else agrees that battery isn’t suitable for the inverter! The wires are all very sturdy but it is permanently disconnected as I’m not happy with it connected.
I have looked at Roadpro but they are eye wateringly expensive just to connect a hairdryer!! The hairdryer is 1200w so I assume a draw of about 120amps for 5min?). I don’t use a TV or any other 240v electrical items. (Fridge when on EHU but could easily use gas) Fogstar look a bit more affordable. or could gel be ok? Thank you for replying.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

No, it’s as in the photo below.
I’m glad someone else agrees that battery isn’t suitable for the inverter! The wires are all very sturdy but it is permanently disconnected as I’m not happy with it connected.
I have looked at Roadpro but they are eye wateringly expensive just to connect a hairdryer!! The hairdryer is 1200w so I assume a draw of about 120amps for 5min?). I don’t use a TV or any other 240v electrical items. (Fridge when on EHU but could easily use gas) Fogstar look a bit more affordable. or could gel be ok? Thank you for replying.

View attachment 803802

That's a very common controller, sold under lots of brand names. eg. https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...roller--regulator-for-12V--24V-batteries.html From a quick scan of the manual, I don't think it would damage a lithium battery. It might not get it to 100% either, but I'm assuming that's less of a worry.

Do you have the manual for the CBE 516 charger with your van? If it's a 516-3, then that can't be used with lithium. If it's an earlier one you could be OK.

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[Just smiffy]

I would buy a smaller wattage hairdryer, there’s plenty out there and do the same job. As long as you know your going to top up the battery by either driving EHU or lots of sun on the solar on the day it will be fine.

To upgrade easily and cost effectively would be to replace the controller for a mppt model, then a bigger solar panel or if it fits another battery… if your only using the hairdryer for a short while you’ll be fine providing it’s a smaller wattage. Another battery will instantly double your capacity but you have to charge them both…

It doesn’t need to be difficult or technical..

 

[Downsie]

Yes, I have the manual. Nowhere does it state it’s a 516-3 so I hope it’s the earlier one. I think the conversion was done early 2021 as it arrived at the dealer in February.
So hopefully the Lithium could drop in?

 

[autorouter]

If you are thinking of a lithium battery like the Fogstar, then it will have a built-in battery monitor system (BMS) which will tell you all knids of things including the % state of charge and Ah remaining, and the amps flowing in or out at any time. Usually on a Bluetooth app on your smartphone. So getting a separate battery monitor might not be worthwhile. The cheaper ones have a 100A shunt which is a bit low for monitoring a 2000W inverter.

To give you an idea of the amount of energy involved, a 1000W hairdryer running for 6 minutes (1/10 of an hour) will take 1000 x 1/10 = 100Wh, which in terms of Ah from a 12V battery is 100/12 = 8.3Ah. In reality that will be at least 10Ah. Your 100Ah wet lead-acid battery has a usable capacity of only 50Ah, so 10Ah is a large portion, but not impossible if you are careful with other usage. If you for example mostly sit outside chatting with friends rather than watching TV all evening, then you should be fine. A 100W panel will give you 30Ah to 40h in reasonable weather in the summer, and if you can manage with that, as many people do, then you will be fine.

A 100W panel and 110Ah battery are common, and are OK for an overnight stop, even a weekend if you are careful. But they are best used when driving for some time during the day to top up the battery with the B2B from the engine.

 

[Downsie]

Just smiffy , there speaks a man! A smaller wattage won’t work!! 1200w is very small for a hairdryer!
Also small is the roof, whole van only 5m long. Just wish I had an idea of wattage.

 

[Just smiffy]

Like I said you will be fine with the hairdryer if you consider how your putting the charge back in on that day…

First thing I would do is to get the flexible panel replaced on the roof for a more energy efficient one and I feel you could get a better bigger one on there…

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[Downsie]

Hmmm, thank you all very much indeed, does all seem possible without replacing lots of other stuff. Nobody is suggesting that the solar panel is too small to be a waste of time. The BMS on Fogstar is a huge positive aspect for me, I do need to know the state of play. (Even I find it hard to believe I once taught some physics but never needed to know about amp hours! ) Also at the last hab check I was told the Banner wasn’t as good as it once was. Now I just need to know of a reliable installer within reach of Essex preferably.

 

[Downsie]

Like I said you will be fine with the hairdryer if you consider how your putting the charge back in on that day…

First thing I would do is to get the flexible panel replaced on the roof for a more energy efficient one and I feel you could get a better bigger one on there…

Point taken re hairdryer, thanks.
Probably a silly question but how do you know that panel is not energy efficient?

 

[Just smiffy]

Point taken re hairdryer, thanks.
Probably a silly question but how do you know that panel is not energy efficient?

Flexible panels don’t have a good reputation of reliability and performance and it looks like the wiring is covering a small portion too, to be honest it looks cheep.. the good news is that it appears to be connected my mc4 connections but I can only see one in the picture, there should be two..? If it’s got 2 mc4 connections then it’s a simple job of replacing just the panel. Of course it would have to be fitted properly.

New panels are giving more punch per size now…

 

[Downsie]

Flexible panels don’t have a good reputation of reliability and performance and it looks like the wiring is covering a small portion too, to be honest it looks cheep.. the good news is that it appears to be connected my mc4 connections but I can only see one in the picture, there should be two..? If it’s got 2 mc4 connections then it’s a simple job of replacing just the panel. Of course it would have to be fitted properly.

New panels are giving more punch per size now…

If an mc4 connection is the white plug thing on the roof, then that’s the only one I can see. I’m beginning to see a plan going forward to get a Fogstar Li battery in, then at least I will know what the solar panel is producing from the BMS (yes?) and decide if it is worthwhile or needs replacing. Thank you.

 

[Just smiffy]

If an mc4 connection is the white plug thing on the roof, then that’s the only one I can see. I’m beginning to see a plan going forward to get a Fogstar Li battery in, then at least I will know what the solar panel is producing from the BMS (yes?) and decide if it is worthwhile or needs replacing. Thank you.

The mc4 connections is the black long thing, it could be a two in to one connector …?

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[Just smiffy]

If an mc4 connection is the white plug thing on the roof, then that’s the only one I can see. I’m beginning to see a plan going forward to get a Fogstar Li battery in, then at least I will know what the solar panel is producing from the BMS (yes?) and decide if it is worthwhile or needs replacing. Thank you.

Hmm, going lithium you will have to change a few things to get the most out of it, it’s going to be expensive…

That’s an expensive hairdryer….

 

[ChrisL]

The budget alternative is a towel turban and finish off with a spin around the block with the windows open

 

[Downsie]

Hmm, going lithium you will have to change a few things to get the most out of it, it’s going to be expensive…

That’s an expensive hairdryer….

True, but I think I’m going to need a new battery anyway. I really don’t have faith in that one cos I don’t know what’s happening apart from voltages that seem to be all over the place. What about gel?

 

[autorouter]

(Even I find it hard to believe I once taught some physics but never needed to know about amp hours! )

Here, we measure electric charge in amp-hours (1Ah = 3600 Coulombs), and energy in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours (1 kWh = 3600000 Joules). They are very convenient units for everyday use.

What about gel?

Gel are not the best for use with a high power inverter. The gel electrolyte is not as good at dissipating heat as a liquid acid electrolyte. You'd need to keep the amps down to C/5 or less, where C is the capacity in Ah. so for 80A into the inverter you would need 80 x 5 = 400Ah of gel batteries. One of the many advantages of lithium is it can take higher discharge currents, up to C/2 or even C. So many 100Ah lithiums are OK with an 80A discharge. But not all, it is limited by the BMS sometimes, so you need to check.

 

[Downsie]

The mc4 connections is the black long thing, it could be a two in to one connector …?

Ok, so as it’s you who achieves goodness knows what, I’ll get the steps in there in the morning!! How would I know there are two in there. Can I feel through the black tape?

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[Just smiffy]

True, but I think I’m going to need a new battery anyway. I really don’t have faith in that one cos I don’t know what’s happening apart from voltages that seem to be all over the place. What about gel?

Gel are good, I have 2 exide gels

Ok, so as it’s you who achieves goodness knows what, I’ll get the steps in there in the morning!! How would I know there are two in there. Can I feel through the black tape?

Black tape..? This is a mc4 connection…
Take a picture of yours if you can

 

[Downsie]

Here, we measure electric charge in amp-hours (1Ah = 3600 Coulombs), and energy in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours (1 kWh = 3600000 Joules). They are very convenient units for everyday use.

Ah, now you’re talking. I used to know about coulombs and joules!

 

[Downsie]

Gel are good, I have 2 exide gels


Black tape..? This is a mc4 connection…
Take a picture of yours if you can

View attachment 803892

Will give it a go tomorrow, thanks.
Do gels have a BMS so you know what it’s all doing?

 

[Downsie]

Here, we measure electric charge in amp-hours (1Ah = 3600 Coulombs), and energy in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours (1 kWh = 3600000 Joules). They are very convenient units for everyday use.

Gel are not the best for use with a high power inverter. The gel electrolyte is not as good at dissipating heat as a liquid acid electrolyte. You'd need to keep the amps down to C/5 or less, where C is the capacity in Ah. so for 80A into the inverter you would need 80 x 5 = 400Ah of gel batteries. One of the many advantages of lithium is it can take higher discharge currents, up to C/2 or even C. So many 100Ah lithiums are OK with an 80A discharge. But not all, it is limited by the BMS sometimes, so you need to check.

I knew this wasn’t going to be straightforward! Thank you.

 

[Just smiffy]

Will give it a go tomorrow, thanks.
Do gels have a BMS so you know what it’s all doing?

No, but if you buy a new victron mppt controller with Bluetooth that will…

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[Just smiffy]

I knew this wasn’t going to be straightforward! Thank you.

It’s a motorhome….. nothing ever is….

 

[Downsie]

No, but if you buy a new victron mppt controller with Bluetooth that will…

So if the solar is properly updated maybe a new battery isn’t needed? But the battery is no good for the inverter

 

[Just smiffy]

So if the solar is properly updated maybe a new battery isn’t needed? But the battery is no good for the inverter

As autorouter said for the amount of time you spend with the hairdryer agm battery is ok. Agm does not get favoured opinions here but on my previous hymer I had two and a big inverter for over 7 years…

But… if you want to do a bit more days “off grid” and still want the power to do the necessary things like drying hair then you’ll need to retune your set-up and a battery is only as good as the power you can refill it with…

Do you have room for two batteries..?

 

[Downsie]

Yes, there would be room. I haven’t a clue as to the relative costs of agm and gel. I understood that I would only need 1 lithium as it can cope with greater discharge? Choices, choices……

 

[Lenny HB]

So if the solar is properly updated maybe a new battery isn’t needed? But the battery is no good for the inverter

Correct, to run a 1200 watt hair dryer with lead batteries you would need 500 ah of batteries.
If the hair dryer is really important go the Lithium route preferably with 200 ah of Lithium.

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