Underslung LPG violent valve failure and discharge in forecourt.

[tv-77]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

 

[JockandRita]

Sorry to learn of your experience.
As you are in N Yorks, Autogas Leisure 2000 at Thirsk would be an excellent point of contact, with Charlie and Steve able to assist.

Give them a call.

Contact

We have a wealth of knowledge in the leisure industry for LPG/Autogas systems. If its an underslung tank or cylinders, we can assist you!

autogasshop.co.uk

Good luck

Jock.

 

[Basildog]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

Hi
Sorry to hear about your problem , my first question is have you always had a cap on the filler point ?
We can certainly help you , we are at Thirsk North Yorkshire so not far , give the office a call on 01845523213.
Or make your way over to Autogas 2000 Leisure Ltd
Carlton Miniott , Thirsk , YO7 4NJ.
Charlie

 

[Lenny HB]

As said get your van over to Autogas 2000, Charlie's team will sort you out.
Sounds like you have some grit jamming the non return valves.

 

[Nanniemate]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

Basildog at Thirsk

Edit should read a thread but l9oks like everyone is in agreement

That will be a first

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[DavidG58]

They also sell LPG, so not only will your confidence be restored, you will be ready to go

 

[DABurleigh]

Just an easy thing to try yourself first - check the large nut on the high pressure hose joint AT the tank isn't loose.

Dave

 

[IRHP]

This is the 2nd time I've heard
of this within a couple of months. Last one was on a forecourt in Falkirk. The guy managed to put the nozzle back on to stop the gas escaping but had to wait for a Morrisons LPG team to come and help him. Is it possible there's some faulty valves? Anyone else heard of it happening?

 

[Gover]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

Hi, this happened to me on a French Motorway Filling Station. The problem was caused by their gas tank being near empty and some sort of sediment from the bottom of their tank jammed the valve. I now always use a small brass filter on the end of the filler connection. You can buy these from Gaslow.

 

[Brains]

Hi, this happened to me on a French Motorway Filling Station. The problem was caused by their gas tank being near empty and some sort of sediment from the bottom of their tank jammed the valve. I now always use a small brass filter on the end of the filler connection. You can buy these from Gaslow.

One of these ?

In which case, for at outlay of £17, it seems well worth the money

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[Hobo]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

I’ve had 3 gas leaks on site before with my under carriage tank and I know the feeling, terrifying! it amazes me how there aren’t more gas accidents/disasters. Totally agree with the comment below, the gas guys in Thirsk, say hi to Charlie from me, they’re the only ones I trust, brilliant

 

[GrahamPye]

Hi, this happened to me on a French Motorway Filling Station. The problem was caused by their gas tank being near empty and some sort of sediment from the bottom of their tank jammed the valve. I now always use a small brass filter on the end of the filler connection. You can buy these from Gaslow.

I've had (probably still have, like the OP haven't dared try filling again!) the same problem with one of my Gaslow bottles. Gaslow Technical Support were very helpful and suggested that because there are less LPG places these days, the ones that are left are being used more and getting towards the end of their tanks, hence the grit problem as Gover describes he experienced. In theory the next fill ought to (might...) wash the grit out of the non-return valve and fix the problem.

I will be ordering one of those Gaslow filters for sure - great tip!

 

[Brains]

Blimey!
At £10 to post the Gaslow Filter,
I'll wait until I have to replace my gas bottle, or I'm next passing Loughborough!

(This is a small part, and I'm not in a hurry, What is wrong with normal letter or parcel post?)

 

[peterc10]

One of these ?

In which case, for at outlay of £17, it seems well worth the money


View attachment 1003373

Looks like delivery would be a tenner. Does anybody know other outlets who would stock it? Can't find it on Basildog site or Ebay or Amazon.

 

[Basildog]

The vast majority of these events are caused by the owner / operator not having a cap on the filler point at all times in our experience.
Another one this morning has caused mayhem on an airbase
I will post separately about filters and possibly another reminder about the importance of the filler point cap .

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[1090alex]

After filling up my lpg as I have done many times before. The valve somehow stayed open and all the gas from my tank discharged into the forecourt. Absolutely terrifying considering no one including myself knew what to do. I’m a live aboard and now without gas and too terrified uo attempt a refill.

My hunch is that bring -8 yesterday a small amount of moisture got into the tank and caused the tank to gasify. Or that the tank was overfilled due to valve cut off failure.

I’d also like to get my system checked over but not sure how to g do o thst or who to contact? I’m based near Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

It’s still pretty cold and not having a cooker or the confidence to light my fire is pretty hard.

Thank you

We sold vans with Propex underslung lpg tanks.
One thing the manufacturer was adamant about was when filling the tank if the pump clicks off never ever try to put more gas in. Failure to do so could cause the pressure relief valve on the tank to open

 

[DucatoMan2]

On a similar note my ES adaptor blew half way thru a fill. I now tighten with mole grips and it's worked to date.

 

[Just smiffy]

The importance of saving your wine corks, they screw-in the filler perfectly, giving dust protection….

 

[Markman]

On a refinery i worked on we got a 1.5 mm pin hole leak on a liquid propane line at about 6bar, coming out as a constant boiling jet. Modelling indicated that the flammable gas cloud extended about 5m before the concentration of propane diluted below the Lower Flammability Limit (LFL). Loosing a tank through the full line, of about 6mm, would give a far bigger flammable zone, so important to keep all ignition sources away, including hot surfaces such as an engine exhaust. So the forecourt should be immediately closed to cars coming to fill up.

 

[Basildog]

On a refinery i worked on we got a 1.5 mm pin hole leak on a liquid propane line at about 6bar, coming out as a constant boiling jet. Modelling indicated that the flammable gas cloud extended about 5m before the concentration of propane diluted below the Lower Flammability Limit (LFL). Loosing a tank through the full line, of about 6mm, would give a far bigger flammable zone, so important to keep all ignition sources away, including hot surfaces such as an engine exhaust. So the forecourt should be immediately closed to cars coming to fill up.

Most forecourt operators do call the emergency services to be honest .
Normally fire service attends but we have know the police to shut the road on occasions.
As I have said it’s nearly always caused by dirt in the filler points often from missing cap .
Having spoken to many industry professionals they don’t recognise the problem of sediment / grit and older tanks etc .

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[Markman]

Having spoken to many industry professionals they don’t recognise the problem of sediment / grit and older tanks etc .

Strange because there's no such thing as a dry refinery tank. They all have water in them and need draining, some more often than others. Steam is added to most distillation columns to aid separation, and steam/water dissolves in hydrocarbons, not much but more than after it cools in a tank, so it drops out as liquid water. All refinney tanks, and propane spheres and bullets, have to be opened and inspected regularly, typically every 5 years but can go to 10 years or max 20 years if enough historical data. Corrosion occurs. I agree propane tanks corrode less than heavy hydrocarbon containing tanks, but not zero. So I wonder who the professionals were you spoke with.

 

[bubble63]

I have had exactly the same experience as the OP
Disconnected the filler and liquid LPG shot out emptying the whole tank onto the garage forecourt
Emergency services attended and the station was closed for over an hour
My supposition was that there was moisture that froze keeping the valve open
I think my Gaslow kit has two one way valves one at both ends of the fill pipe

 

[Markman]

I have had exactly the same experience as the OP
Disconnected the filler and liquid LPG shot out emptying the whole tank onto the garage forecourt
Emergency services attended and the station was closed for over an hour
My supposition was that there was moisture that froze keeping the valve open
I think my Gaslow kit has two one way valves one at both ends of the fill pipe

That's exactly what happened, outer valve freezing open, in Feyzin in 1966, the leak then catching fire, heating the tank so it exploded in a BLEVE killing 18 people who were too close (< 350m away).

Even if your cloud ignited the tank probably wouldn't BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) because it would have emptied before overheating, but would have burned out your motorhome.

I don't think Emergency Services would have solved anything. The flammable gas cloud would have largely disipated by time they got there (and risked igniting it with their engines). The forecourt should have their own Emergency response plan to close it immediately.

Feyzin disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Basildog]

Strange because there's no such thing as a dry refinery tank. They all have water in them and need draining, some more often than others. Steam is added to most distillation columns to aid separation, and steam/water dissolves in hydrocarbons, not much but more than after it cools in a tank, so it drops out as liquid water. All refinney tanks, and propane spheres and bullets, have to be opened and inspected regularly, typically every 5 years but can go to 10 years or max 20 years if enough historical data. Corrosion occurs. I agree propane tanks corrode less than heavy hydrocarbon containing tanks, but not zero. So I wonder who the professionals were you spoke with.

Strange because there's no such thing as a dry refinery tank. They all have water in them and need draining, some more often than others. Steam is added to most distillation columns to aid separation, and steam/water dissolves in hydrocarbons, not much but more than after it cools in a tank, so it drops out as liquid water. All refinney tanks, and propane spheres and bullets, have to be opened and inspected regularly, typically every 5 years but can go to 10 years or max 20 years if enough historical data. Corrosion occurs. I agree propane tanks corrode less than heavy hydrocarbon containing tanks, but not zero. So I wonder who the professionals were you spoke with.

Yes I understand the dryness of lpg and its ability to carry both free and dissolved water.
Perhaps I worded it badly as what I was saying that the industry has seen for many years cases of filler valves and non return valves sticking open, there hasn’t suddenly been an increase with older tank installations as like you rightly say they all undergo testing @ 10 years and complete refurbishment at 20 years.
We see plenty of heavy ends in older cylinders / tanks , which is why it beggars belief those advocating inverting Moroccan LPG cylinders to fill tanks
I feel adding a filter and additional filler point adaptor that results in a significantly increased release of liquid state LPG on releasing the gun is potentially more dangerous.(people have managed to burn hands without adding to the discharge)

 

[Markman]

Yes I understand the dryness of lpg and its ability to carry both free and dissolved water.
Perhaps I worded it badly as what I was saying that the industry has seen for many years cases of filler valves and non return valves sticking open, there hasn’t suddenly been an increase with older tank installations as like you rightly say they all undergo testing @ 10 years and complete refurbishment at 20 years.
We see plenty of heavy ends in older cylinders / tanks , which is why it beggars belief those advocating inverting Moroccan LPG cylinders to fill tanks
I feel adding a filter and additional filler point adaptor that results in a significantly increased release of liquid state LPG on releasing the gun is potentially more dangerous.(people have managed to burn hands without adding to the discharge)

Fully agree with both your points.
Particularly like the second one, to not add a filter due to the extra LPG vented on release. The law of unintended consequence happily still alive and going strong, solving one problem to create another.

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[bubble63]

That's exactly what happened, outer valve freezing open, in Feyzin in 1966, the leak then catching fire, heating the tank so it exploded in a BLEVE killing 18 people who were too close (< 350m away).

Even if your cloud ignited the tank probably wouldn't BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) because it would have emptied before overheating, but would have burned out your motorhome.

I don't think Emergency Services would have solved anything. The flammable gas cloud would have largely disipated by time they got there (and risked igniting it with their engines). The forecourt should have their own Emergency response plan to close it immediately.

Feyzin disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again exactly the same outcome on the garage forecourt
It was the young ladies first few days as cashier
She push all the emergency buttons which switched off whole station, made the evacuation announcement on the tannoy system and we all evacuated the station, cones went out on the entrance, text book event as she had only done the training days before
Fire officer who attended just observed the liquid gas and white clouds from the street
A lot went down the drains as liquid
Scary

 

[swemmy666]

Fully agree with both your points.
Particularly like the second one, to not add a filter due to the extra LPG vented on release. The law of unintended consequence happily still alive and going strong, solving one problem to create another.

always use gardening gloves?

 

[JockandRita]

always use gardening gloves?

I don't think they are available anymore, but I bought a couple of pairs of these for the job.

Wilko Medium Heavy Duty Rubber Gloves | Wilko

Shop for Wilko Medium Heavy Duty Rubber Gloves at wilko - where we offer a range of home and leisure goods at great prices.

www.wilko.com

Most UK Autogas pumps have a protective neoprene, rubber, or plastic hand guard at the trigger, but many abroad don't.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[swemmy666]

always use gardening gloves?

and safety glasses

 

[stewartwebr]

On a refinery i worked on we got a 1.5 mm pin hole leak on a liquid propane line at about 6bar, coming out as a constant boiling jet. Modelling indicated that the flammable gas cloud extended about 5m before the concentration of propane diluted below the Lower Flammability Limit (LFL). Loosing a tank through the full line, of about 6mm, would give a far bigger flammable zone, so important to keep all ignition sources away, including hot surfaces such as an engine exhaust. So the forecourt should be immediately closed to cars coming to fill up.

I guess it could be argued that the inventory escaping at 6mm is going to be harder to ignite as the UFL is much greater. But completely agree, any kind of leak should be treated very seriously. Interestingly, if you read the emergency procedures on a forecourt it advises to activate the emergency shutdown button. Given the equipment, including the said emergency shutdown button does not appear to be hazardous area equipment with suitable “Atex” protection then you may induce a spark and subsequent explosion. It opens the old million dollar question, do you shutdown or remain as is. A bit like the deluge question, do you deluge or don’t you. Some professionals and some companies advocate some don’t. Biggest risk in my mind would be hot engines as you rightly identify and the starting of any vehicles. Get everyone out and to a safe location as soon as possible and let the emergency services manage it.
RAF Spadeadam have some great videos showing this kind of scenario. I have been a few times and only until you actually witness this kind of explosion with very little inventory do you fully appreciate the dangers.
Edit - to add link

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