Topping up the up the underslung LPG tank

[Geo]

Do we have a Most irresponsible post award" Jim
In my view it should be taken down.

In the current situation of shortage in LPG suppliers do you not realise the number of noobies who have no knowledge
of the dangers involved will copy your skills foolhardy practice.
You will never know if the next explosion resulting possibly likely in a fatality was due to a tip from you via Motor Home Fun.
Seriously concerned
Geo

 

[TinaLes]

Paul, theres a Shell LPG garage if you come off the M3 heading South, at Junction 4A to Farnborough/Fleet/Cove.
Follow signs for Fleet and the garage is on the left just before a roundabout (easy to miss as bushes hide sign)
I drove up there couple of weeks back to check they still had an LPG pump, they did, but they had run out of gas
I went in and asked when it would be back in action, they said after the weekend (then) so give em a buzz en-route.
We did fill up at a shell garage down just north of the new forest last year, but the FillLPG app sent us to places that had never sold it before finding that one!
Good luck.
LES

 

[Coolcats]

Good solution, but I would have detoured to an LPG station

Has anyone got a reliable LPG station locator? I have tried several websites and they were not much use. I know there is an autogas pump on the Cobham services of the M25, which might be my nearest

Last month I was at Southdowns MoHo outlet found a Calor Gas outlet about 1/4 mile away and they had an auto gas pump so you may find pumps at other Calor sites with the same particularly if the outlet serves commercial interests

 

[DDJC]

Do we have a Most irresponsible post award" Jim
In my view it should be taken down.

In the current situation of shortage in LPG suppliers do you not realise the number of noobies who have no knowledge
of the dangers involved will copy your skills foolhardy practice.
You will never know if the next explosion resulting possibly likely in a fatality was due to a tip from you via Motor Home Fun.
Seriously concerned
Geo

Problem is that it isn't a 'current' shortage of LPG suppliers. It is an ever-increasing shortage of suppliers.

However, I am neither brave enough nor confident enough to try to refill my own Gaslow system. My question is that my connection is a single Gaslow bottle and a pigtail that can accept a 5 or 10kg Gaslight (homebase type patio gas) as a reserve. If both bottles are open and connected, does the fuller tank (higher pressure) refill the emptier bottle, as in a single supply system?

 

[Coolcats]

No Just a cloud of vapour.



I full understand the differance in cost between Autogas and Calor (had refillable for quite a while now on MH's) and the cost saving and perpetual cost lost of detouring.
Shell motorway services LPG is disappearing at an alarming rate and we had various LPG stations that we have pulled into in the past that have had their Autogas pumps either out of action or the staff do not know how to switch the pump on from the tills counter, so detouring can be a total waste of time and diesel, still with no LPG. As an example, we planned to pull into Birchanger Green services on the M11 for LPG earlier this year as this was on our way to the tunnel but luckily a Funster said that they had pulled in there for LPG and the pump was out of service.
As I said, this is a fall back if needed, not a normal way I will be filling up.

As for risk. didn't come across any risk other that kicking the steps over.

Shell are proactively shutting all the auto gas pumps

edited to say I found this on another site and is dated 2019

Many thanks for your email about the removal of LPG from Shell Forecourts.



Apologies for our delay in responding to you.



LPG is a valuable energy source for numerous business applications in industry and transportation. However, in the UK, customer demand for LPG for domestic transportation is declining and many of our Autogas service stations are increasingly underutilised. As a result Shell are moving towards offering alternative low-carbon transport fuels such as electric vehicle charging or hydrogen, areas where we are seeing increasing customer demand.



The removal of LPG from Shell sites is not a decision they have taken lightly. In the absence of the Shell offering there are still over 1000 Autogas sites throughout the UK.



You may find the following links www.filllpg.co.uk and www.drivelpg.co.uk useful for alternative sites.



I would like to sincerely apologise for any inconvenience that this decision has caused and to thank you again for reaching out to us with your concerns.



Kind regards,



Sam



Samantha Wiggett

Network and Pricing Assistant

Autogas Limited

Brought to you by Calor and Shell



Tel: 01527 895171

Fax: 01527 894123

e-mail: swiggett@autogaslimited.co.uk

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[Geo]

Problem is that it isn't a 'current' shortage of LPG suppliers. It is an ever-increasing shortage of suppliers.

However, I am neither brave enough nor confident enough to try to refill my own Gaslow system. My question is that my connection is a single Gaslow bottle and a pigtail that can accept a 5 or 10kg Gaslight (homebase type patio gas) as a reserve. If both bottles are open and connected, does the fuller tank (higher pressure) refill the emptier bottle, as in a single supply system?

Put simply NO using your method you are simply transfering gas not liquid LPG and are making one bigger tank by joining them
you need to be sure the Gaslow is in fact empty when you open the patio gas cylinder, gas will the flow to the main cyinder and through your regulator to your appliance. BUT
What happens if the gauge or regulator fails indicating no gas, when it is in fact over half full and under more pressure than your patio cyllinder!!!! proper exchange and installed gas systems are the only safe and aproved methods of using LPG
It should be noted a cup full of liquid gas released to the air can create a 30ft Diamiter ball of flame, so keep your hand held extinguisher in your hand but iv'e no idea where you would point it

 

[TinaLes]

Paul, TinaL just phoned the Shell garage off the M3 southbound at Jct 4A, they have Gas so all is well....for now at least.
LES

 

[Coolcats]

Do we have a Most irresponsible post award" Jim
In my view it should be taken down.

In the current situation of shortage in LPG suppliers do you not realise the number of noobies who have no knowledge
of the dangers involved will copy your skills foolhardy practice.
You will never know if the next explosion resulting possibly likely in a fatality was due to a tip from you via Motor Home Fun.
Seriously concerned
Geo

In part I can understand the concern, however,

1) Any type of this activity is to be undertaken by an Adult
2) It is assumed risk
3) As far as I can see the OP used the correct gas pipe and connectors,
4) instead of a MoHo on the end of the pipe its normally a BBQ.......with flames
5) I understand that normally a regulator is fitted for the pressure to the BBQ

So Assuming the correct pipes and connectors are used and a process for connecting and disconnecting the pipe where is the Danger?

Even if the tank that is being filled is 70% full as has been pointed out you can only fill them to 80% anyway due to the cut off valve, unless there is a fault.

Just edited to say, there is probably more gaseous vapour, when I use a petrol can to top up a petrol tank on a car or lawnmower on a warm day

 

[Riverbankannie]

I use the app Mylpg.eu
Whenever I can, I report stations open or closed. I always get a thank you response email where I have to report an error or a closed pump.
If we could all agree to concentrate on one app and keep it updated for those pumps in the area in which we live and travel, we could have a more reliable resource.

 

[Geo]

In part I can understand the concern, however,

1) Any type of this activity is to be undertaken by an Adult
2) It is assumed risk
3) As far as I can see the OP used the correct gas pipe and connectors,
4) instead of a MoHo on the end of the pipe its normally a BBQ.......with flames
5) I understand that normally a regulator is fitted for the pressure to the BBQ

So Assuming the correct pipes and connectors are used and a process for connecting and disconnecting the pipe where is the Danger?

Even if the tank that is being filled is 70% full as has been pointed out you can only fill them to 80% anyway due to the cut off valve, unless there is a fault.

Just edited to say, there is probably more gaseous vapour, when I use a petrol can to top up a petrol tank on a car or lawnmower on a warm day

I cant find the words without appearing rude
Suffice it to say your post also demonstrates your lack of knowledge and common sense as per the OP
Ironic that today is the Start of Gas Safety Week.

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[Camdoon]

Morrisons in St Ives.

 

[jessthedog]

I don't know about the safety of this set up, I don't think it would pass any of the H&S critera for gas filling!!!
The biggest crime I can see for any of the Northerners, Who will be choking on their Yorkshire tea, is putting £3 a Kg gas into a tank that normaly costs less than a £1

 

[Coolcats]

I cant find the words without appearing rude
Suffice it to say your post also demonstrates your lack of knowledge and common sense as per the OP
Ironic that today is the Start of Gas Safety Week.

Well if you do have the knowledge and expertise please share it, or is it you just feel that it is unsafe?

 

[Two on Tour]

Oh great, now Geo is a bloody Ex Spert on LPG, I wounder what he going to be an Ex Spert on next.

 

[cmcardle75]

So Assuming the correct pipes and connectors are used and a process for connecting and disconnecting the pipe where is the Danger?

The main issue is that the 80% refill valve can sometimes stay partially open if filled using low pressure from a liquid gravity feed, they sometimes rely on the collapse in pressure from a pumped source to get a really good tight close. If you then have a leak on the filler pipework, what would have been a gradual leak of the tiny amount of gas on the feed pipe now has access to the entire tank contents.

However, any such leak would be very gradual, as the 80% valve will be mostly closed, just cracked open a little.

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[Two on Tour]

Ok Geo, do you accept that it is okay, responsible and safe to use a Gaslow reserve cylinder connection hose connected to a LPG tank/cylinder fill point on a van and propane slave cylinder in it's normal upright position ?

 

[Two on Tour]

The main issue is that the 80% refill valve can sometimes stay partially open if filled using low pressure from a liquid gravity feed, they sometimes rely on the collapse in pressure from a pumped source to get a really good tight close. If you then have a leak on the filler pipework, what would have been a gradual leak of the tiny amount of gas on the feed pipe now has access to the entire tank contents.

However, any such leak would be very gradual, as the 80% valve will be mostly closed, just cracked open a little.

Have you experienced this, because I certainty have not.
As I said in my earlier post " as the level reached 77% you could hear the internal 80% safety shut off closed with a slight bang and every thing went quite", why would I or anybody else then try to continue with the transfer process and leave a propane cylinder for a long period of time, it's job done ?

 

[Coolcats]

I cant find the words without appearing rude

If you are struggling for words, I have always found the Collins English Dictionary helps

https://www.waterstones.com/book/collins-english-dictionary/9780007382330

And I would add any safety advice based on expertise is always welcomed.

 

[Two on Tour]

The main issue is that the 80% refill valve can sometimes stay partially open if filled using low pressure from a liquid gravity feed, they sometimes rely on the collapse in pressure from a pumped source to get a really good tight close. If you then have a leak on the filler pipework, what would have been a gradual leak of the tiny amount of gas on the feed pipe now has access to the entire tank contents.

However, any such leak would be very gradual, as the 80% valve will be mostly closed, just cracked open a little.

Sorry I do not get your logic on the 80% shut off valve.
The 80% shut off valve resembles and works in the same way as the float shut off valve in a toilet cistern in the images I have seen of the 80% shut off valve. and as such an increase in fluid level will only put more pressure to close off the incoming fluid.
Surly higher pressure from a pumped supply at an Autogas pump is more likely to force fluid pass 80% shut off valve than a cylinder with lower pressure that the Autogas pumped supply.

If you are experiencing lpg gradually seeping past your 80% shut off valve then it is faulty and you will need to address the problem as that is potentially very dangerous.

 

[tonyidle]

The main issue is that the 80% refill valve can sometimes stay partially open if filled using low pressure from a liquid gravity feed, they sometimes rely on the collapse in pressure from a pumped source to get a really good tight close. If you then have a leak on the filler pipework, what would have been a gradual leak of the tiny amount of gas on the feed pipe now has access to the entire tank contents.

However, any such leak would be very gradual, as the 80% valve will be mostly closed, just cracked open a little.

The 80% lock-off stops liquid/vapour entering the tank. The one-way valves on the filler connection and on the tank inlet itself prevent anything leaving the tank. I can't imagine any of the three relying on pump shut-off to operate correctly.

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[cmcardle75]

The 80% lock-off stops liquid/vapour entering the tank. The one-way valves on the filler connection and on the tank inlet itself prevent anything leaving the tank. I can't imagine any of the three relying on pump shut-off to operate correctly.

Apparently, some non-return valves are prone to sticking if they close very slowly. I can't remember if it was a specific brand that was susceptible, or even where I heard this. But the gist was that the pump shutting off provided a sufficient shock to fully close the valve.

 

[dulvil]

Well if you do have the knowledge and expertise please share it, or is it you just feel that it is unsafe?

If it was safe, calor would have made a video with detailed instructions

 

[Two on Tour]

If it was safe, calor would have made a video with detailed instructions

Can you post use a link to the instructional videos that Calor have released please.

 

[Coolcats]

If it was safe, calor would have made a video with detailed instructions

Probably not, if you were Calor would you? just because they have not does not mean it is unsafe, how do you get mains or bottled gas to your cooker........have you seen the size of a Gas Mains, and how it hisses as Gas flows through particularly in high demand in the winter. then it comes through my Gas metre and connect to a supply hose to my cooker.

So I am still asking the question why would it be unsafe to transfer Gas from a Bottle to a tank, as the other method of transferring from a pump to a tank seems acceptable and both would require suitable connectors one on the bottle and one on the tank.

 

[Geo]

If you are struggling for words, I have always found the Collins English Dictionary helps

https://www.waterstones.com/book/collins-english-dictionary/9780007382330

And I would add any safety advice based on expertise is always welcomed.

Thanks for the link
The word I was looking for is in there
"Imbecile" however you will have to work out the context I am using it in as ot may be wrongly construed personal.
There is a video circulating of a woman filling a carrier bag with petrol on a four court, are you related ?

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[Puddleduck]

Has anyone tried heating gas / oil suppliers for LPG ?

Johnston Oil in Newtown St Boswells (just off the A68) has an LPG pump

Scottish Borders Depot | Johnston Oils | Local contact details |

Scottish Borders Depot - Earlston Road, Newtown St.Boswells, TD6 0SD. Call us on 01835 823001.

johnston-oils.co.uk

and perhaps others also have the same facility.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

There will be a difference between gas in it's liquid form (which means it is compressed and higher pressure) than when in vapour form (lower pressure). It must be noted that gas pressures when air temperatures are cool will be less than once warm. Your cylinder, hoses and pipework need to handle those differences. I'm sure someone will look up the relative pressures.

Gas in your house mains supply, before and after the meter is supplied in vapour form. It is pressurised, just not at the levels needed to be liquid. The same in your motorhome, once it leaves the tank / cylinder to the appliances, where it has effectively "boiled off" within the storage cylinder. So downstream of the onboard tank cylinder all hoses to the cooker, water heater, and external BBQ point only need to handle the lower vapour gas.

Upstream of the cylinder, on it's inlet side, the liquified gas will need more robust couplings, pipes and hoses to handle the liquid, and keep it liquid. If it were to vapourise, the expansion required is substantial, no doubt one of the reasons for the 80% limit.

The adaptor hose and connectors used by the OP was designed by manufacturer for connection of a Calor type external cylinder to the tank inlet. It will have been tested for that purpose i.e. a regulator on the external cylinder to enable transfer of the gas vapour into the empty on board tank. Vapourisation occurs at the external cylinder in this application, and does not repressurise within the onboard storage.

Whilst the OP "got away" with turning the calor external cylinder upside down and was able to transfer the LPG in liquid form, the hose and connectors used were not designed for that pressure and purpose. There must be safety risks with a liquid transfer in this manner, particularly in the absence of controls to keep the gas in liquid form and control temperatures. The OP may be prepared to accept those risks, but comments in this thread should show the practice is at best unwise. The internet will be full of examples of people trying similar methods, notably examples of how to self refill the portable calor type cylinders with LPG, again with hoses and adaptors never intended for that purpose..

 

[DDJC]

Thanks for the link
The word I was looking for is in there
"Imbecile" however you will have to work out the context I am using it in as ot may be wrongly construed personal.
There is a video circulating of a woman filling a carrier bag with petrol on a four court, are you related ?

I hope it was a Bag for Life. Carrying petrol in those flimsy 5p placcy bags would be unwise.

 

[Coolcats]

Thanks for the link
The word I was looking for is in there
"Imbecile" however you will have to work out the context I am using it in as ot may be wrongly construed personal.
There is a video circulating of a woman filling a carrier bag with petrol on a four court, are you related ?

Geo, I am genuinely interested in why the Gas exchange In your opinion is so dangerous, if you can explain this I am happy to Listen and learn, if you cannot then that is fine too as you hold such a strong view.

 

[Coolcats]

There will be a difference between gas in it's liquid form (which means it is compressed and higher pressure) than when in vapour form (lower pressure). It must be noted that gas pressures when air temperatures are cool will be less than once warm. Your cylinder, hoses and pipework need to handle those differences. I'm sure someone will look up the relative pressures.

Gas in your house mains supply, before and after the meter is supplied in vapour form. It is pressurised, just not at the levels needed to be liquid. The same in your motorhome, once it leaves the tank / cylinder to the appliances, where it has effectively "boiled off" within the storage cylinder. So downstream of the onboard tank cylinder all hoses to the cooker, water heater, and external BBQ point only need to handle the lower vapour gas.

Upstream of the cylinder, on it's inlet side, the liquified gas will need more robust couplings, pipes and hoses to handle the liquid, and keep it liquid. If it were to vapourise, the expansion required is substantial, no doubt one of the reasons for the 80% limit.

The adaptor hose and connectors used by the OP was designed by manufacturer for connection of a Calor type external cylinder to the tank inlet. It will have been tested for that purpose i.e. a regulator on the external cylinder to enable transfer of the gas vapour into the empty on board tank. Vapourisation occurs at the external cylinder in this application, and does not repressurise within the onboard storage.

Whilst the OP "got away" with turning the calor external cylinder upside down and was able to transfer the LPG in liquid form, the hose and connectors used were not designed for that pressure and purpose. There must be safety risks with a liquid transfer in this manner, particularly in the absence of controls to keep the gas in liquid form and control temperatures. The OP may be prepared to accept those risks, but comments in this thread should show the practice is at best unwise. The internet will be full of examples of people trying similar methods, notably examples of how to self refill the portable calor type cylinders with LPG, again with hoses and adaptors never intended for that purpose..

Thank you, so what we are talking about regarding safety, is possibly a different hose, possibly different connectors and maybe a regulator of some description. So if it is established that those items are changed out for the ‘correct type’ it would not be an issue.

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