Topped up in Spain now heating not working?

[Jon Stewart]

Always wonder how effective they are though 'cause there ain't any heat in the cylinder to start with to keep in!

But there is heat to keep in.

I find that many kids have a bit of an 'ahah!' moment when they finally get why temperatures are measured in Kelvin, not Celsius, for thermodynamic calcs, and that even in very low temperatures, particles still have significant energy.

 

[Jon Stewart]

If you do take the risk PLEASE do go out and buy a CO detector TODAY (€10-20 in UK from Srewfix, Argos, B&Q type stores).

B&Q was £25 for a Kidde carbon monoxide detector, and a smoke detector in one pack, a few weeks ago.

 

[Gellyneck]

Agreed but given the inefficiency of these types of covers it doesn't take long for the thing being insulated to cool to ambient temperature. Or have I got it wrong?

 

[Jon Stewart]

Agreed but given the inefficiency of these types of covers it doesn't take long for the thing being insulated to cool to ambient temperature. Or have I got it wrong?

I'd say you have it right.

The problem that I haven't seen mentioned is that when the LPG (liquid) evaporates (to gas), it absorbs a certain amount of energy.

This cools down the immediate environment (ie the 'gas' tank and the contents).

You need to replace that energy lost as well as compensating for external temperature fall.

(Similar to why the LPG filler gets cold when you're topping up your gas)

 

[jumar]

I'm very sceptical that the difference in weight compared with the 'average' for air will cause any striation.

CO is the same weight (RFM) as N2 (28), which is 79% of the air.

Brownian motion will ensure complete mixing, as demonstrated by the oxygen molecule (RFM 32).

I don't disagree with the rest, and the important point is definitely that floor vents will do nothing to remove carbon monoxide.

I posted a very lay answer in an attempt to get the message across...I totally agree with your more accurate addition, thank you for adding this..

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[MichaelT]

0. EMPTY
1. we are here
2. 1/4
3.
4. 1/2
5.
6. 3/4
7.
8. FULL

I actually meant the technology

 

[Peavy]

I actually meant the technology

Ah ok
There is a float that moves a lever that, depending on its position, modifies an electrical resistance. This value (ohms) is then transmitted to the LED display.
The dealer had a bottle with a section cut out to expose the mechanism.
Works like an electrical transmitter, but with ohms instead of mA.

 

[MichaelT]

Ah ok
There is a float that moves a lever that, depending on its position, modifies an electrical resistance. This value (ohms) is then transmitted to the LED display.
The dealer had a bottle with a section cut out to expose the mechanism.
Works like an electrical transmitter, but with ohms instead of mA.

Ok thanks so it's not something I could buy then?

 

[Nanniemate]

The gauge on mine is I've just filled so it's full.
Then it's filled it the other day so it will be fine
Then it's oh dear not as much in there as I thought.

 

[Reallyretired]

On the subject of keeping warm in bed. We have electric blankets on our single beds in the van. Running off inverter they are less than 100w on max, much less on a low setting. They live on the beds permanently under a mattress protector and a fitted sheet. Obviously we don't turn them on in warmer weather.

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[Minxy]

We did lost all the water because we reached 4°C inside (we have a very warm bed duvet) and I only woke up when I heard water being dropped.

I can beat that! It was so cold one night coming down through France that at our overnight stop we actually had ice on the inside of all the windows! We don't have heating on overnight but in all the years we've done winter MHing we've never had that. We slept through it though as we have lovely warm duvets to snuggle under and our water didn't drop as we have a double floor so the water tank is more protected than with a single floor.

But they are using refillable so you are at mercy of the mix in the garage which may be a lot of butane in Spain.

We topped up in Spain and have had near freezing temperatures at times but no issues at all with the gas.

 

[Jon Stewart]

We slept through it though as we have lovely warm duvets to snuggle under....

You failed to mention the shared bodily warmth. Very important in a survival situation!

 

[Minxy]

You failed to mention the shared bodily warmth. Very important in a survival situation!

Er, nope I didn't, hubby has the front drop-down bed and I have the rear one ... We each have dogs with us but they hide under the duvets and don't cuddle ... probably don't want to sleep next to smelly snoring humans!

 

[Jon Stewart]

Er, nope I didn't, hubby has the front drop-down bed and I have the rear one ... We each have dogs with us but they hide under the duvets and don't cuddle ... probably don't want to sleep next to smelly snoring humans!

 

[Palough]

Nanniemate. Ditto to Martin's post above. We've never experienced problems using Spanish Autogas over winter with overnight temperatures in minus figures. If the same symptoms occur with the changeover to the UK filled cylinder, then it's a flow problem as previously suggested. Good luck getting it sorted.


Another ditto, and I can't believe others in their posts above advocating such a practise. Cooking with ventilation is a totally different scenario to heating a large closed space for habitation comfort. Your CO alarm (if installed) will soon be warning you of the lower oxygen levels when it kicks off. It's a "NO NO" without adequate ventilation.

For those referring to floor vents, both our quality German built MHs from the Hymer Group, have had no floor vents whatsoever.

Regards,

Jock.

Burning LPG also produces Formaldehyde (HCHO) and Nitros Oxide (NO²).

Both are highly toxic deadly gases and heavier than air

So, they accumulate at floor level and like the ocean tide coming in, rise in the MH.

Carbon Monoxide is lighter than air and rises to the ceiling, and as the volume of Carbon Monoxide increases, then the depth increases downwards without adequate roof ventilation to compensate.

So, if the Carbon Monoxide (CO) doesn't get you, the Formaldehyde and Nitros Oxide just might

And Formaldehyde intoxication has long term detrimental health effects.

I'd echo other informed comment here that's it's not "Safety First"

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[Jon Stewart]

Burning LPG also produces Form

Both are highly toxic deadly gases and heavier than air

So, they accumulate at floor level and like the ocean tide coming in, rise in the MH.

Carbon Monoxide is lighter than air and rises to the ceiling, and as the volume of Carbon Monoxide increases, then the depth increases downwards without adequate roof ventilation to compensate.

So, if the Carbon Monoxide (CO) doesn't get you, the Formaldehyde and Nitros Oxide just might

And Formaldehyde intoxication has long term detrimental health effects.

I'd echo other informed comment here that's it's not "Safety First"

Burning LPG also produces Formaldehyde (HCHO) and Nitros Oxide (NO²).

Both are highly toxic deadly gases and heavier than air

So, they accumulate at floor level and like the ocean tide coming in, rise in the MH.

Carbon Monoxide is lighter than air and rises to the ceiling, and as the volume of Carbon Monoxide increases, then the depth increases downwards without adequate roof ventilation to compensate.

So, if the Carbon Monoxide (CO) doesn't get you, the Formaldehyde and Nitros Oxide just might

And Formaldehyde intoxication has long term detrimental health effects.

I'd echo other informed comment here that's it's not "Safety First"

This is basically complete BS, as it ignores Brownian motion.

Nitrogen dioxide has a higher rfm than most other elements or compounds in air, and carbon monoxide has a lower RFM than most other elements and compounds in air, but Brownian motion thoroughly mixes them from top to bottom of your motorhome.

Any accumulation of either will ultimately cause fataility, but not for the nonsense stated above.

Get a carbon monoxide and smoke detector in your MH if you haven't already.

£25 from B&Q, about 3 weeks ago.

 

[Palough]

This is basically complete BS, as it ignores Brownian motion.

Nitrogen dioxide has a higher rfm than most other elements or compounds in air, and carbon monoxide has a lower RFM than most other elements and compounds in air, but Brownian motion thoroughly mixes them from top to bottom of your motorhome.

Any accumulation of either will ultimately cause fataility, but not for the nonsense stated above.

Get a carbon monoxide and smoke detector in your MH if you haven't already.

£25 from B&Q, about 3 weeks ago.

What Jon Stewart says is correct, Brownian motion does occur, it's a natural phenomenon where there is no prefered direction of motion when gases mix, but this highly unlikely to be the case as there Will be a preferred direction of motion since the MH is not an airtight box and there will be some ventilation resulting a preferred direction of motion depending on whether ventilation is greater at the ceiling or at the floor or somewhere else

Nevertheless, mixing of the gases will still occur by whatever mechanism

However, this was not intended to be a lecture in theoretical physics and mathematics, but a simplistic explanation that all could grasp without a University degree, that gases are produced which are deadly without adequate ventilation.

A gas detector could we'll save lives.

 

[Palough]

What Jon Stewart says is correct, Brownian motion does occur, it's a natural phenomenon where there is no prefered direction of motion when gases mix, but this highly unlikely to be the case as there Will be a preferred direction of motion since the MH is not an airtight box and there will be some ventilation resulting a preferred direction of motion depending on whether ventilation is greater at the ceiling or at the floor or somewhere else

Nevertheless, mixing of the gases will still occur by whatever mechanism

However, this was not intended to be a lecture in theoretical physics and mathematics, but a simplistic explanation that all could grasp without a University degree, that gases are produced which are deadly without adequate ventilation.

A gas detector could we'll save lives.

I might also add that Brownian molecular mixing of gases refers to the mixing of gases in a completely sealed environment where there are no external influencing effects on the mixing of the gases, such as a preferred direction of air flow

i.e., in a sealed Perspex flask in a laboratory.

The inside of a MH is not even remotely relevant, as there are innumerable prefered directions of airflow, such as but not limited to, the huge vortexes created by the burning of hot gas on the hob creating turbulent air flow throughout the interior of the MH completely overwhelming and negating the Brownian effect.

In addition, since the bathroom door is not built by a submarine manufacturer and not completely air tight, air will flow under the bathroom door and out through the bathroom ceiling vent, (chimney effect), goodbye Brownian effect influence.

I could go into the thermodynamic effects of expanding hot gases influencing air flow but enough said

The roof vents and windows are also not built by a submarine manufacturer and will be a source of ventilation, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The simple act of 2, or more people breathing inside the MH creates turbulent air, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The front cab of the MH around sliding side windows, and in dash air vents will provide air leakage creating preferred directions of air flow, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The inside of a MH does not equate to a sealed Perspex flask in a laboratory observing the mixing of gases under no influencing external effects.

So, let's keep it simple, like Occams Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

Burning LPG inside the MH on a gas hob is not a great idea.

It produces toxic gases that, if not adequately ventilated can result in fatality, or health issues.

In the absence of sufficient ventilation, a multi-gas detector would seem a prudent idea.

 

[Peavy]

Ok thanks so it's not something I could buy then?

It's pretty standard. Is part of the LPG installation. The wires go to the head of the bottle where the gauge would be placed, I believe.

 

[Markman]

So you don't cook in your van.

No. We cook all the time and eat out rarely (I hate paying for a meal of worse quality than I can prepare myself so reserve the budget for good (expensive) restaurants).

I don't go to sleep when cooking and keep a window & roof vent open.

The issue is to not leave the open flame burning when going to sleep because you won't notice the CO poisoning (starts with a headache) before the CO reaches fatal levels.

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[Minxy]

We cook all the time and eat out rarely (I hate paying for a meal of worse quality than I can prepare myself so reserve the budget for good (expensive) restaurants).

Don't think you meant that as the way I read it unless you really are a crap cook!

 

[Basildog]

I might also add that Brownian molecular mixing of gases refers to the mixing of gases in a completely sealed environment where there are no external influencing effects on the mixing of the gases, such as a preferred direction of air flow

i.e., in a sealed Perspex flask in a laboratory.

The inside of a MH is not even remotely relevant, as there are innumerable prefered directions of airflow, such as but not limited to, the huge vortexes created by the burning of hot gas on the hob creating turbulent air flow throughout the interior of the MH completely overwhelming and negating the Brownian effect.

In addition, since the bathroom door is not built by a submarine manufacturer and not completely air tight, air will flow under the bathroom door and out through the bathroom ceiling vent, (chimney effect), goodbye Brownian effect influence.

I could go into the thermodynamic effects of expanding hot gases influencing air flow but enough said

The roof vents and windows are also not built by a submarine manufacturer and will be a source of ventilation, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The simple act of 2, or more people breathing inside the MH creates turbulent air, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The front cab of the MH around sliding side windows, and in dash air vents will provide air leakage creating preferred directions of air flow, goodbye Brownian effect influence.

The inside of a MH does not equate to a sealed Perspex flask in a laboratory observing the mixing of gases under no influencing external effects.

So, let's keep it simple, like Occams Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

Burning LPG inside the MH on a gas hob is not a great idea.

It produces toxic gases that, if not adequately ventilated can result in fatality, or health issues.

In the absence of sufficient ventilation, a multi-gas detector would seem a prudent idea.

I don’t think most owners actually really realise that the manufacturers are supposed to do ventilation calculations that are all laid out in :

BS EN 721:2019​

Leisure accommodation vehicles. Safety ventilation requirements​

This is the reason why many of the roof lights appear to be missing their seals ( they are specifically designed to provide high level ventilation) .
There should also be low level ventilation for the habitation area , not just gas drop outs .

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[Lenny HB]

I think Nanniemate has done a runner probably given up on this thread, she only wanted to know if anyone could help her with her heater not working.

 

[jumar]

I think Nanniemate has done a runner probably given up on this thread, she only wanted to know if anyone could help her with her heater not working.

I'm using it as a diversion from the Lithium con thread..

 

[Riverbankannie]

I can reassure all those worried above that IH vans come fully fitted with CO2, Smoke and LPG detectors.

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[Jon Stewart]

I might also add that Brownian molecular mixing of gases refers to the mixing of gases in a completely sealed environment where there are no external influencing effects on the mixing of the gases, such as a preferred direction of air flow

Brownian motion is not limited to this context at all.

Any external influence only accelerates the mixing of gases.

Love your enthusiasm though.

 

[Markman]

I can reassure all those worried above that IH vans come fully fitted with CO2, Smoke and LPG detectors.

I hope and presume you mean CO rather than CO2 detectors.
IDLH (immediate danger to life or health)
CO = 1,200 ppm
CO2 = 40,000ppm

 

[Riverbankannie]

I hope and presume you mean CO rather than CO2 detectors.
IDLH (immediate danger to life or health)
CO = 1,200 ppm
CO2 = 40,000ppm

Yes, I do, thanks. carbon monoxide detector.

 

[Nanniemate]

I think Nanniemate has done a runner probably given up on this thread, she only wanted to know if anyone could help her with her heater not working.

Still lurking and been reading the technical stuff with interest.

I can reassure all those worried above that IH vans come fully fitted with CO2, Smoke and LPG detecto rs.

I replaced the co detector last year and the smoke alarm is fully functional as anyone who has been round me when I'm cooking(a rare event) knows

I'm on ehu now and the sun is shining so relying on rhe trusted and tested method of fingers crossed it will be fine and I'm keeping the UK gas for the colder part of the return journey.

If that fails I may get a puppy. There's a really cute one here but he don't woof in English

 

[NPea]

We had this last week in Germany. I thought that the Germans used close to 100% propane through the winter. Driving from North to South on the motorway, filled up in a 'lowland' service station. A couple of nights later the truma -I'm not coping light came on- It was only about -15 overnight but I thought wow we have blown through the gas fast. On opening the locker to switch the reserve on I was confronted with an ice cube with a clear demarkation line across the in use bottle. I clicked that there must have been butane in the filling station so just swapped to the known propane tank and no further problem.
So lesson learned, dont fill up in the lowlands.

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