Top Coat Paint Flaking/Peeling Off Base Coat Sound (1 Viewer)

[GSD]

My 2017 Citroen Relay Panel Van Conversion is generally in good condition paint wise however when the vehicle was new I felt that the paint was not as substantial as it was on my 2012 Relay. The van has been little used since Covid but when stored the top layer of paint has separated and flaked off in a number of areas particularly roof areas where water is inclined to lie and/or run off. I asked a local bodyshop for advice and they said the paint was not adhering to the base coat for reasons they could not understand.They were supposed to come back to me with a quote but have note done so or provided any other comments. Since the problem areas are mainly in places not readily visible I am inclined to remove the most flaky bits of paint gently abrade the lower coat and touch up with a matching coat.
Anyone got any advice please ?
I can post a photo if it helps but the van is in storage.

 

[DBK]

That's what I've done on my 2013 Fiat. A full respray would cost a fortune in labour I fear.

 

[Phill D]

Go very easy and light on the rubbing down, I had a flake the size of my little finger nail within a very very short time it became the size of 2 of my hands...

If you are lucky enough to find solid paint, I undercoated and the top coated with rattle can touch up, then polished in as best I could.

 

[berni109]

It a well known fiat phenomenon the disappearing paint.
I thought it was only on some of the early X250 but obviously wrong.
As Phill D said and you guessed it's out with the rattle cans.

 

[pagey]

Be careful with the rattle cans, the paint on the van is water based but the rattle cans are cellulose and mine reacted had to put a barrier coat on first

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[Nanniemate]

vinyl stickers are working to stop the paint flake expanding if it starts on the sides water will get behind the pain and the tiny flake will become a huge patch in no time I stopped mine 'running' with a strategically placed sticker

 

[Phill D]

vinyl stickers are working to stop the paint flake expanding if it starts on the sides water will get behind the pain and the tiny flake will become a huge patch in no time I stopped mine 'running' with a strategically placed sticker

Just don't take it off...
Mine is on the bonnet so I have done a rattle can job a d put a bonnet bib on until I can get around to have the bonnet resprayed.

 

[Vikdikdok]

Yep, same paint flaking on my Citroen Relay . . . I'm thinking of rubbing down the whole engine bonnet and starting afresh with primer & topcoat

 

[shrek snr]

Vinyl wrap.

 

[GSD]

Thanks for all contributions.
I attach a photo of one of the worse areas. Its on the roof so not really visible.
I get the point about stopping the flaking creeping or indeed making it worse.

Vinyl wrap seems a possible solution and I am familiar with it being applied to an entire vehicle as below (not my car or my house by the way) but how do you apply it to small areas and where do you get it from. How is it attached and how do you colour it etc.

Thanks for any further help.

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[repairer]

The first question, is the paint finish original factory finish or was the paint work "changed" i.e colour change during conversion?

Do you/have you pressure washed the MH?

The issue by the look of your image is the adhesion of the colour basecoat to the primer coat, the only "perfect" solution to this is a repaint of the affected panel/s

However, this solution involves a lot of work, for the repair to be carried out correctly it would require the colour basecoat removing from all the affected panels, so in affect a "strip and repaint", just painting over the panels would not work as you still have the adhesion problem of the paintwork below - as you mention vinyl wrap would be a fix

I used to see these issues many times by various manufacturers in the 70's / 80's - not so common these days.

Just a note, I am assuming from your picture that the panel shown is a steel panel and not plastic? there is a difference in the materials used on metal and plastic.

 

[GSD]

Thanks for these comments.
The paintwork is entirely original and the roof is all metal.
The areas affected are all on the roof except for the drainage channel on each side of the "high roof" I don't pressure wash the van exactly because I was aware of the possibility of taking the very thin paint layer off but I have snow foamed the van. The van is stored at a storage site adjacent to an airport and was unattended for the first long lockdown and little used until recently. As a result water would have been sitting on the roof for long periods possible mixed with fuel residue in the air

Since nearly all the areas are not readily visible the cosmetics are less important but I imagine untreated the problem will just get worse and worse.

 

[Badknee]

Vinyl wrap seems a possible solution and I am familiar with it being applied to an entire vehicle as below (not my car or my house by the way) but how do you apply it to small areas and where do you get it from. How is it attached and how do you colour it etc.

I would think that a whole panel would have to be wrapped.

 

[GSD]

I have arranged for a professional body shop to paint the flaky bits. They come well recommended so although its costing a bit of money (about a days labour etc ) I am confident that I will finish up with a good job and preserve the vehicles value

 

[scottie]

Have a 2008 citroen relay lwbase, converted by devon motorhomes 2013, current mileage about 45 500 miles. Not really used for about 2 years, covid and a hip op. Started a thorough clean last week, inside in good order, but headed up to the roof today and started the dreaded clean, abeit only the bits that can be seen from the ground . Mot tomorrow, and then the long road to roof revival. Noticed in many places that the paint was easilycoming off and down to primer and some cases minor rust in rain channels. Too expensive to have professionally done due to age and resell value of van. So intension is to thoroughly clean roof, metal and ridged, tape off vents and solar, sand and prime, and then a final protective coat, but in black not white. Overall objective is to protect roof,no more flaking of paint, and as isnt in view dosent have to look aesthetically great. Saying that will continue my research and post photos. Any comments or observations appreciated, many thanks.

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[Vikdikdok]

My Citroen Relay suffers the same annoying problem of peeling on The bonnet, ,a 'feature ' with fiat/Citroen paint

 

[Nanniemate]

Mine has the fiat flake if you have a cheap reliable remedy you'll have a que and be able to patientant it please keep the updates going

 

[L' Hobo]

Mine also has the same problem, I have been told by a friend that used to spray RR's and race cars, that the problem started when there was a change over from cellulose to water based paints.

They change the top coat to water based but the undercoat was the Cellulose type and adhesion was poor??

I am thinking about painting mine camouflage colours so can be touched up at different times and the flaking unnoticeable.

 

[PeterCarole29]

This really makes me angry as i have seen it on vans Fiats mainly that are 2001 to now OP of 2017 as end users of a product that the value is high, manufacturers are still dishing out something thats not rocket science thats still not fit for purpose (rant not quite over)

 

[repairer]

Mine also has the same problem, I have been told by a friend that used to spray RR's and race cars, that the problem started when there was a change over from cellulose to water based paints.

They change the top coat to water based but the undercoat was the Cellulose type and adhesion was poor??

I am thinking about painting mine camouflage colours so can be touched up at different times and the flaking unnoticeable.

Manufacturers have used waterborne base coats for a very long time now, very very few ever used cellulose paint on the production line. ( Top marques such as RR used it, but it is mainly used in the “hand built” car sector.)

Usual manufacturer finish was high bake, as opposed to low bake as used in most body shops.

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[Emmit]

It a well known fiat phenomenon the disappearing paint.
I thought it was only on some of the early X250 but obviously wrong.
As Phill D said and you guessed it's out with the rattle cans.

And the X244.
Fiat don't put enough glue in their top coats.

 

[L' Hobo]

Manufacturers have used waterborne base coats for a very long time now, very very few ever used cellulose paint on the production line. ( Top marques such as RR used it, but it is mainly used in the “hand built” car sector.)

Usual manufacturer finish was high bake, as opposed to low bake as used in most body shops.

When you say 'long time now', how long? My vehicle is 2007 and that seems to be about when the problem started.

 

[repairer]

When you say 'long time now', how long? My vehicle is 2007 and that seems to be about when the problem started.

Have a read of this

The Waterborne Leader

us.ppgrefinish.com

PPG was producing water borne for OE lines from as early as 1986, I also know in the UK ICI as was then we’re doing similar,

I remember Ford and BL having paint flaking issues in the 70’s , you would think by now manufacturers would of got a grip of this.

 

[activecampers]

Sevel vans are painted with naff paint!
Converting our Nissan, we knocked it around heavily and never a scratch on it. Outside and what there was left visible inside was pristine after 6y
The MY20 ducato, factory black, marked/scratched vvvvvvvvvvvv easily when building it. Fortunately all covered up inside, but it certainly isn't solid paint. Almost 3yo though and holding up well externally, so can't really moan!

 

[L' Hobo]

Have a read of this

The Waterborne Leader

us.ppgrefinish.com

PPG was producing water borne for OE lines from as early as 1986, I also know in the UK ICI as was then we’re doing similar,

I remember Ford and BL having paint flaking issues in the 70’s , you would think by now manufacturers would of got a grip of this.

Interesting but, although water based paints might have been around, I was still having something called a 'two-pack' done to my Coaches well into the 2020's.
We seemed to have no problems with those but as you may have guessed, I didn't get involved, only paid for it.
(Possibly 'two-pack is not Cellulose?)
I was only repeating something I was told?

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[repairer]

Yes the ”2 pack” refinish system is used more commonly in the vehicle repair sector, car body shops etc.

It was originally a solvent based base coat with a solvent based lacquer, however most body shops now use a waterborne base coat, not sure on the current lacquers being used, been away from it for a while.

 

[L' Hobo]

Yes the ”2 pack” refinish system is used more commonly in the vehicle repair sector, car body shops etc.

It was originally a solvent based base coat with a solvent based lacquer, however most body shops now use a waterborne base coat, not sure on the current lacquers being used, been away from it for a while.

Apparently the law changed and commercial spray bays were no longer allowed to use '2 pack' or so I was told?

 

[garry63]

I have same problem on peugeot boxer paint flake on bonnet and wing panel, got advice about wrapping and told all loose paint would need removing before wrapping as rap would bubble or not stick where paint comes loose after fitting wrap

 

[Woody466]

My 2017 Citroen Relay Panel Van Conversion is generally in good condition paint wise however when the vehicle was new I felt that the paint was not as substantial as it was on my 2012 Relay. The van has been little used since Covid but when stored the top layer of paint has separated and flaked off in a number of areas particularly roof areas where water is inclined to lie and/or run off. I asked a local bodyshop for advice and they said the paint was not adhering to the base coat for reasons they could not understand.They were supposed to come back to me with a quote but have note done so or provided any other comments. Since the problem areas are mainly in places not readily visible I am inclined to remove the most flaky bits of paint gently abrade the lower coat and touch up with a matching coat.
Anyone got any advice please ?
I can post a photo if it helps but the van is in storage.

I have recently purchased a new van, I had a small issue which was rectified by Fiat under the paint warranty.
You will almost certainly have received a paint and anti perforation warranty with the van when new, manufacturers offer different lengths and vary in validation of such.

 

[Nanniemate]

I have recently purchased a new van, I had a small issue which was rectified by Fiat under the paint warranty.
You will almost certainly have received a paint and anti perforation warranty with the van when new, manufacturers offer different lengths and vary in validation of such.

And they use any reason to get out of it unfortunately putting every van right is not a viable option for manufacturers

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