The future of full timing based in the UK?

[PeteH]

I'm looking to pick up a van in about 8 weeks time, and I was going to fit (or have fitted) a gaslow or underslung system, before the winter arrives.
Hearing about LPG facilities closing did make me pause, but I'll go ahead with gaslow because there are still plenty of LPG refill locations, and you would imagine there wont be too many lost in the next 10 years.
I do like the look of the refillable bottles though (eg Safefill), because you can see instantly and exactly how much gas is left in the bottle. I used to have a butane heater as a backup, and I can remember swilling the bottle around to try to get a rough idea how much gas was left.

IF I was was in any danger of going back "En Continent", which will not happen due to medical insurance (lack of). I too would still likely fit at least one re-fillable. Or more likely an underslung tank, which would release space in current gas locker to move some weight forward. But we are losing some LPG outlets in the UK. that is a fact. It`s a use it, or lose it facility, and the "promotion" of Electric Vehicles as being "more climate friendly" can take most of the blame.

 

[TonyC123]

IF I was was in any danger of going back "En Continent", which will not happen due to medical insurance (lack of). I too would still likely fit at least one re-fillable. Or more likely an underslung tank, which would release space in current gas locker to move some weight forward. But we are losing some LPG outlets in the UK. that is a fact. It`s a use it, or lose it facility, and the "promotion" of Electric Vehicles as being "more climate friendly" can take most of the blame.

Fingers crossed we dont lose too many in the next few years, I guess...
As an alternative for the water heating part, I wonder if you could use an Eberspacher diesel water heater?
But what do you do for the fridge, and the cooking.....?
It has to be gas, doesnt it?
I guess once the LPG stations get too scarce, you could buy three of the refillable LPG bottles, so your supply last a lot longer. Then you could fit the LPG refuelling stops into your travelling route, and are less likely to be wasting diesel by dashing around the country for scores of miles to find an LPG petrol station.

 

[PeteH]

Fingers crossed we dont lose too many in the next few years, I guess...
As an alternative for the water heating part, I wonder if you could use an Eberspacher diesel water heater?
But what do you do for the fridge, and the cooking.....?
It has to be gas, doesnt it?
I guess once the LPG stations get too scarce, you could buy three of the refillable LPG bottles, so your supply last a lot longer. Then you could fit the LPG refuelling stops into your travelling route, and are less likely to be wasting diesel by dashing around the country for scores of miles to find an LPG petrol station.

On the R-V. I had what is called and Extenda-stay. What that was, is a fitting in the line from the supply tank. into which you screw a High pressure hose. This allows you to shut off the tank and couple up a cylinder to supply the `van. In Spain I had it coupled to a Repsol cylinder, which I could get swapped out (and was actually quite cheap) Mine was by "Camco" and was imported from the USA.

 

[Gromett]

A Minimum of 500plus miles.

400 today, in 15 years by the time of the ban 500 will be trivial and cheap...

 

[PeteH]

400 today, in 15 years by the time of the ban 500 will be trivial and cheap...

But still, 3 to 4 times the time to refill?. therefore needing 3 to 4 time the number of outlets and parking to get the same through put as a petrol station?. And at what cost when government decide to add Tax plus Vat?

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[Jim]

But still, 3 to 4 times the time to refill?. therefore needing 3 to 4 time the number of outlets and parking to get the same through put as a petrol station?

But imagine how small the queues at petrol stations would be if we all had a petrol pump at home and left the house with full tanks.

 

[PeteH]

But imagine how small the queues at petrol stations would be if we all had a petrol pump at home and left the house with full tanks.

The queue at Tesco` recently when I thought I would fill the Motorhome was bad enough. Imagine trying to recharge at Motorway services?. You would need thousands (well Dozens, far more than the current number of Pumps). of outlets!. Charging overnight at home is not the issue. It`s the refilling "en route". And with a scattered family, I always have to "recharge" at some point. It may work, but I am totally unconvinced, The proposed pace of change is IMV at least a couple of Decades too fast. Get the Tech done and proven in scale, then look at change. I also remain unconvinced by the "shooshing" noises made by the proponents of this electric revolution. The cost to the environment is far greater than they are "telling". Rare minerals need mining, and the costs including human life is only now being seen small scale, ramp up production and see what the true costs are. By comparison, admittedly the costs of getting/using Hydrogen, are High. But the source is right now, and easy to get at with a Pump. With the right Tech; might even be possible to combine with Desalination and solve some water supply issues as well?.

 

[maz]

I'm looking to pick up a van in about 8 weeks time, and I was going to fit (or have fitted) a gaslow or underslung system, before the winter arrives.
Hearing about LPG facilities closing did make me pause, but I'll go ahead with gaslow because there are still plenty of LPG refill locations, and you would imagine there wont be too many lost in the next 10 years.
I do like the look of the refillable bottles though (eg Safefill), because you can see instantly and exactly how much gas is left in the bottle. I used to have a butane heater as a backup, and I can remember swilling the bottle around to try to get a rough idea how much gas was left.

The gauges on refillable cylinders vary a lot in their accuracy from Gaslow clip-on ones (hopeless) to Alugas cylinder top ones (accurate to within 1 litre). See this thread:
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/alugas-lpg-cylinder-gauge-accuracy.185038/

BTW, my van has just gone up for sale - might suit you.

Broken Link Removed

 

[Jim]

magine trying to recharge at Motorway services?.

With an average journey time by car of 11 minutes and the majority charging at home. There won't be many at service stations. And I'm sure the number of chargers will grow with need.

 

[CamperJack]

But #vanlife is absolutely massive and while youngsters can't get mortgages and rents are ridiculous, the movement is going to explode.

I have to admit the appeal of getting a van has something to do with this. It will enable faster saving because I spend most of my money on "stuff this moments" when I go away for a weekend and spend money on hotels or B&Bs. Having the van will hopefully cut this cost and enable cheaper breaks.

As a single guy saving for a mortgage deposit is a struggle to say the least!

Mum and Dad payed about £45K for their house in the late 90s. I'd need to save about £20K to get a mortgage for that house in today's market. And they had a 25 year mortgage to pay that £45K.

On the other hand I'd have to raise £20K cash in advance and then have the same 25 years to pay off the remaining £100K +. That's the scale of the problem. That's how hard home ownership has become.

It seems an impossible at times but I'm determined not to pay rent forever. Dead money. Pay more than a mortgage would be and never own a single brick? No thanks. But it's far from easy!

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[PeteH]

With an average journey time by car of 11 minutes and the majority charging at home. There won't be many at service stations. And I'm sure the number of chargers will grow with need.

Which goes further to make it a NO for my usage?. After you factor in the large extra cost of the EV. Even with subsidy, the whole thing becomes unviable. And I remain totally sceptical about the so called Costings of Power production. I am old enough the remember the promise of the golden age when all would be bright and light with the coming on stream of all the wonderful Nuclear Power plants. Even got HMQ to open a couple. Nuclear Cars?. Buy one never have to refuel again?. The ad men had a field day with that one, ever where we sold a Pup?. EV`s are in the same "Jam Tomorrow" category. Prove the technology, prove the Environmental costs. Then Us sceptics might? be persuaded, in the meantime I am as happy as laddie with my modern (relativly) cost effective and efficent Diesel. Further I also have a 1971 car whose "Whole Life" cost must by now be down to pennies.

 

[Jim]

Which goes further to make it a NO for my usage?. After you factor in the large extra cost of the EV. Even with subsidy, the whole thing becomes unviable. And I remain totally sceptical about the so called Costings of Power production. I am old enough the remember the promise of the golden age when all would be bright and light with the coming on stream of all the wonderful Nuclear Power plants. Even got HMQ to open a couple. Nuclear Cars?. Buy one never have to refuel again?. The ad men had a field day with that one, ever where we sold a Pup?. EV`s are in the same "Jam Tomorrow" category. Prove the technology, prove the Environmental costs. Then Us sceptics might? be persuaded, in the meantime I am as happy as laddie with my modern (relativly) cost effective and efficent Diesel. Further I also have a 1971 car whose "Whole Life" cost must by now be down to pennies.

Yeah them and those new fangled automobiles....they said they would get petrol from deep under ground in foreign lands, or even from the bottom of the sea, then ship it half way around the world and get it delivered to a new petrol station in every village in the land...... Mr Arse, come on Dobbin, lets go get some oats,

 

[tacr2man]

VW just announced electric van , all electric range 82 miles

 

[TonyC123]

The gauges on refillable cylinders vary a lot in their accuracy from Gaslow clip-on ones (hopeless) to Alugas cylinder top ones (accurate to within 1 litre). See this thread:
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/alugas-lpg-cylinder-gauge-accuracy.185038/

BTW, my van has just gone up for sale - might suit you.

Broken Link Removed

OMG, that thing is a beast. Its incredibly tempting, and yes it has got me thinking. It won't be around for long, either way. Why are you flogging it, if you dont mind me asking?

 

[maz]

OMG, that thing is a beast. Its incredibly tempting, and yes it has got me thinking. It won't be around for long, either way. Why are you flogging it, if you dont mind me asking?

It’s kind of a long story but in a nutshell I split up with my partner in August last year. We had both been living fulltime in the Burstner. We have now got back together but in the meantime my partner had bought himself another motorhome. So we now have two motorhomes between us - which is one too many!

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[TonyC123]

One of the things I mentioned was the increasing opposition by governments to driving ICE cars, and their efforts to encourage us to drive electric cars.
That's not likely to go away, and I do have a nagging doubt that over the next 10-15 years, they could impose increasing taxes on petrol and diesel, to the point that travelling around the UK as a full timer might get pretty expensive.
My nagging doubt is that increasing diesel prices will make both cars and MHs less desirable. It's one thing to take a hit on the resale value of a £15k car, but how would rising fuel prices damage the value of say a 50k motorhome?
Could MHers be landed in say 10-15 years with vehicles that are really expensive to run, but can't be sold except at rock bottom prices?
In 5 years time we will have a choice of electric MHs, and that will increase as time goes on. And those will be ones people will move towards, surely?
Its hard to imagine there being an option of swapping a new electric motor into your MH, so are people worried that future governments might try to price them off the road?
This made me wonder if a caravan was a viable option, on the basis that if they make ICE vehicles too expensive to run, you could move to an electric towing car much easier than you could sell a big motorhome and swap to an electric one.
A caravan would make wild camping very difficult a lot of the time, but if the Highland council really do go ahead with a daily charge for motorhomes, won't it be worth just using CLs and CSs anyway?
If you can get a cheap CS for £10 a night, and they're going to charge £5 or £10 a day for motorhomes, why not use the CLs?
For people contemplating new MHs at 40k plus, are you concerned that in 10 years time you might not be able to run them because of say road tax or fuel tax increases?

 

[TonyC123]

It’s kind of a long story but in a nutshell I split up with my partner in August last year. We had both been living fulltime in the Burstner. We have now got back together but in the meantime my partner had bought himself another motorhome. So we now have two motorhomes between us - which is one too many!

Blimey, your chap must have one hell of a motorhome if you've opted to sell that Burstner

 

[maz]

Blimey, your chap must have one hell of a motorhome if you've opted to sell that Burstner

N+B

 

[TonyC123]

N+B

I hope you won't mind me prying, but the Burstner is an off-grid wildcamping extravaganza of amazingness.
So do you guys do a lot of wildcamping?
In something like that, wildcamping in England or Europe, I'd spend the whole night laying awake listening for the slightest sign of an attempted beak-in to steal my precious. Or rather, my preciousssss..... Because I would get like that about it
Not to mention the gas.
But we don't mention the gas, do we?

 

[maz]

I hope you won't mind me prying, but the Burstner is an off-grid wildcamping extravaganza of amazingness.
So do you guys do a lot of wildcamping?
In something like that, wildcamping in England or Europe, I'd spend the whole night laying awake listening for the slightest sign of an attempted beak-in to steal my precious. Or rather, my preciousssss..... Because I would get like that about it
Not to mention the gas.
But we don't mention the gas, do we?

Not so much wild camping as just off-grid. In the UK we’ve spent lots of time on THSs - cheap way of travelling around the country and often in great locations but minimal facilities. Normally from Easter to mid-October in the UK we’d be off-grid, and the Burstner (and my previous van, the Hobby) have both been kitted out to do this. From the end of October we’d either be in southern Europe and still off-grid or, if in the UK, on hook-up on CMC sites where you can run all the heating and water heating on electric that’s included in the price - and CMC prices are at their lowest.

Having said that, I’ve done the odd night wild camping ever since I set off solo fulltiming back in 2011. I’d just choose my spots carefully and never had any problems. However I wouldn’t choose to make a career out of wild camping. It’s just something I would do if there wasn’t a suitable THS or CL where I needed to be. With a Strikeback alarm and dead locks on all doors I can honestly say I’ve never been nervous.

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[nicholsong]

In something like that, wildcamping in England or Europe, I'd spend the whole night laying awake listening for the slightest sign of an attempted beak-in to steal my precious. Or rather, my preciousssss..... Because I would get like that about it

Surely same with a N&B, but we mostly do Aires and wildcamping in an N&B in UK and Europe and never had a worry in 11 years.

What sort of Wuss are you?

Geoff

 

[TonyC123]

Surely same with a N&B, but we mostly do Aires and wildcamping in an N&B in UK and Europe and never had a worry in 11 years.

What sort of Wuss are you?

Geoff

A joking one

 

[maz]

What sort of Wuss are you?

I think maybe a smiley or two would have softened the tone a bit? We all know you’re a pussycat really.

 

[Gromett]

But still, 3 to 4 times the time to refill?. therefore needing 3 to 4 time the number of outlets and parking to get the same through put as a petrol station?. And at what cost when government decide to add Tax plus Vat?

Bigger batteries come with a much faster rate of charge. When battery prices drop and their density increases a 500 mile battery will be trivial. This also means a 10 minute charge could put 200+ miles in your "tank" with the new high speed chargers being rolled out now.

You might find this an interesting read.

How Elon Musk aims to revolutionise battery technology

Could the least exciting bit of Elon Musk's empire end up being the most transformative?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[PeteH]

Bigger batteries come with a much faster rate of charge. When battery prices drop and their density increases a 500 mile battery will be trivial. This also means a 10 minute charge could put 200+ miles in your "tank" with the new high speed chargers being rolled out now.

You might find this an interesting read.

How Elon Musk aims to revolutionise battery technology

Could the least exciting bit of Elon Musk's empire end up being the most transformative?

www.bbc.co.uk

To me it`s still all "Jam Tomorrow". AND. To my mind, worryingly. The factory making the batteries is in? China!, THE source of our current issues! . The article too, has an awful lot of "Might", and "Maybe", in the text too. The proof of, any, pudding will be in the eating. We saw this "new dawn" back in the 50`s with Nuclear. That is without taking into account the still questionable means of accessing the needed minerals?.

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[Gromett]

To me it`s still all "Jam Tomorrow". AND. To my mind, worryingly. The factory making the batteries is in? China!, THE source of our current issues! . The article too, has an awful lot of "Might", and "Maybe", in the text too. The proof of, any, pudding will be in the eating. We saw this "new dawn" back in the 50`s with Nuclear. That is without taking into account the still questionable means of accessing the needed minerals?.

CATL is just one provider of batteries. Tesla is possibly looking at a UK base as well as ones currently either being built or are in planning in Germany and the U.S. The Telsa battery developments are very fast moving.

As for 50's nuclear. That is a poor comparison. We are talking about a consumer product that can be iterated rapidly and has little downside. If you look again at what I said earlier. Tesla has gone from a 250 mile battery to a 400+ mile battery in the same car without redesigning the car. That is 250-400+ miles in under 8 years. They have since started developing their own battery tech and will be making their own batteries, these will be better by quite some distance according to bits of info Musk has already given away.

We are not talking about Jam tomorrow. We are looking at steady technological progress that will most certainly put us in a position where these cars are usable by the vast majority of people within the 15 year deadline if not sooner.

Oh and if you say that is just Tesla. What is stopping other manufacturers from achieving the same thing as Tesla has. The laws of Physics certainly aren't. I look to Tesla because they are a leader in this field and we just need the rest to pick up the ball and run with it. The rest have 15 years to achieve what Tesla has achieved in 8.

 

[PeteH]

CATL is just one provider of batteries. Tesla is possibly looking at a UK base as well as ones currently either being built or are in planning in Germany and the U.S. The Telsa battery developments are very fast moving.

As for 50's nuclear. That is a poor comparison. We are talking about a consumer product that can be iterated rapidly and has little downside. If you look again at what I said earlier. Tesla has gone from a 250 mile battery to a 400+ mile battery in the same car without redesigning the car. That is 250-400+ miles in under 8 years. They have since started developing their own battery tech and will be making their own batteries, these will be better by quite some distance according to bits of info Musk has already given away.

We are not talking about Jam tomorrow. We are looking at steady technological progress that will most certainly put us in a position where these cars are usable by the vast majority of people within the 15 year deadline if not sooner.

Oh and if you say that is just Tesla. What is stopping other manufacturers from achieving the same thing as Tesla has. The laws of Physics certainly aren't. I look to Tesla because they are a leader in this field and we just need the rest to pick up the ball and run with it. The rest have 15 years to achieve what Tesla has achieved in 8.

I must admit I love your Optimism. You really believe in this dont you?.

 

[Gromett]

I must admit I love your Optimism. You really believe in this dont you?.

I just look at the trends. I have been in technology all my life. It is not only my work it is my hobby and interest.

The science says this is possible, there is now impetus and public demand for it. Where these things combine in technology they move very, very fast.

Oh and the reason I like the idea so much is I hate man made noise. I look forward to having peace and quiet restored when all these ICE vehicles no longer make their raucous noises. Also having cleaner air to breathe will be lovely too of course.
I am not a fan because I am some sort of climate catastrophist. I am a fan because I think the tech is better and will allow us to improve our environment.

 

[Silver-Fox]

But imagine how small the queues at petrol stations would be if we all had a petrol pump at home and left the house with full tanks.

I guess they will re wire all the cabling to houses then.

Ohh and mind you don’t trip over the cables in a street of terraced houses

 

[thebriars]

Mum and Dad payed about £45K for their house in the late 90s. I'd need to save about £20K to get a mortgage for that house in today's market. And they had a 25 year mortgage to pay that £45K.

On the other hand I'd have to raise £20K cash in advance and then have the same 25 years to pay off the remaining £100K +. That's the scale of the problem. That's how hard home ownership has become.

Its not always been that easy. I started working in 1970 as a graduate earning £1000 a year. 4 bed houses nearby were selling for £3500, which was the then standard 3.5 times earnings, had I had enough for the deposit. A year later my salary had grown to £1100 a year - not bad 10% rise. However, the same houses were now selling for £12,000.

Later on in life we were faced with interest rates at 15%. Imagine that on your mortgage.

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