Swapping to Lithium batteries in PVC?

[gerry mcg]

Has anyone swapped to a 100Ah Lithium battery (replacing the 2x95Ah Varta AGM batteries under the driver seat) in a PVC? (Ive a Globecar Revolution 600L). I’ve already got 175w solar via Victron 75/15 MMPT solar controller, Victron BMV700, and VB battery master, with the Schaudt EBL119) & the Fridge is a 12v compressor unit.

I’m exploring the option to fit a B2B to gain from the improved charge rate lithium can cope with for faster charging and an inverter for 230v distribution, but it looks like space for fitting the kit may be an issue (it will also save a 25= kg)

the 100Ah Sterling Lithioum battery is slightly larger (wider) than a single AGM battery, and removal would liberate space in the void left where the second AGM battery would have fitted, but that is about the only space close to the has batteries, And think the B2B could potentially fit in the space under the passenger seat behind the EBL119 .

has anyone fitted an inverter / charger in this location (or anywhere else in a PVC?) and do we have recommendations for B2B and what inverter / charger would be recommended required for a 100ah Lithium battery?

looking at the possibility of A Victron multiplus charger / inverter - the 800/1200/1600 units seem to share the same case, and there is a significant size step up to the 2000, which is causing a siting issue... do these need to be mounted upright? Or can they be fitted rotated?

 

[Millcourt]

If you have not already seen the following two postings, you may find it helpful to know what I did when fitting a couple of Lithium Batteries and an Inverter under the Driver’s seat of my Globecar Campscout, as well as the B2B under the Passenger seat at the rear of the Electroblock.


https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/campscout……-first-10-weeks-plus-recent-lifos-inverter-addition.203904/

LIFOS/Inverter/B2B....... one year on

In an earlier posting (Sept 2019...... https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/campscout……-first-10-weeks-plus-recent-lifos-inverter-addition.203904/ ) I reported on my first 10 weeks of owning our new Globecar Campscout and the addition of a pair of Lifos batteries and an inverter. I had...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

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My installation was not helped by having incorrect advice from the Dealer who supplied the first set of batteries and subsequently expecting too much understanding of how best to proceed from installers who had little or no experience of Lithium installations. The Covid restrictions also seriously delayed getting problems sorted. In the end it has finally worked out to fully meet our needs for extended periods off-grid, with the 250 watts of solar and the B2B coping well with the compressor-only fridge in the Campscout.

I should also mention a problem with the engine battery not receiving adequate charge when I had to abandon our Campscout in storage with EHU for several months last winter due to the Covid restrictions. This has now been resolved, as explained in the following thread with Post No 80 detailing what I did.

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/love-the-lithium’s.234210/page-3

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Rob Kannon Fodda might be able to add his experiences

 

[Millcourt]

Not sure why the second thread mentioned produces an automatic link, but the first and third mentioned do not. May need to cut and paste to see these!

 

[gerry mcg]

Millcourt , thank you very much
Very neat and tidy and interesting and broadly what I am looking to do.
I think My Victron MPPT can be set to a lithium setting and is wired direct to the Leisure batteries, and I think a sterling B2B wired direct to the leisure (avoiding the EBL 119) would be simplest)
How does your EBL Charge the lithium batteries when on hookup? Are you using the Gel charge profile in the absence of a lithium one?
I guess you don't output to the on board 239v sockets via your setup

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[Kannon Fodda]

My setup is quite different as my leisure battery and associated kit is at the back of the van under the bench seat, rather than trying to squeeze under the driver's seats.

Essentially Ah Sterling Lithium replaced the pathetic manufacturer's barely 75Ah lead acid. Sterling B2B unit next to the leisure battery with 35mm sq cables between the engine battery (under floor passenger side seat) to the B2B and rear lithium. Victron MPPT solar replaced the basic PWM solar, retaining existing wiring. A Battery Master allows the leisure to trickle the cab battery if that drops voltage due to alarms and such like. Didn't do anything with the Sargent EHU charger, albeit that doesn't have any lithium or smart profile and has a flat charging current of 13.8V as advised the lithium BMS would prevent overcharge. However, if I'm on a lengthy hook up, just remember to turn off the EHU charger from time to time as a precaution. Did need to have the standard relay isolated (fuse pulled from behind the driver seat) to stop the relay doubling up on the B2B.

I've now added a Victron 375 inverter so I can charge e-bike battery. Plenty for my needs. Larger inverters would need to balance with the max discharge rate the lithium can support.

 

[Millcourt]

gerry mcg

The advice from Schaudt was to use the AGM setting on the Electroblock. This would perhaps not completely recharge the Lithium Batteries on EHU alone, but would do no harm. LIFOS confirmed the same. The Schaudt solar regulator is set to Lithium and will bring the batteries up to 100% in good sunshine. This is plugged directly into the solar input of the Electroblock. The B2B wired directly to the Lithium batteries (and not via the Electroblock, as initially advised by Schaudt) ensures 100% SOC when driving. The inbuilt Battery Management Systems in the 2 batteries seems sufficiently capable of sorting everything out, prevents charging when below 0 deg C, and provides via Bluetooth an informative detail on the Smartphone App about SOC etc.

For our needs, and simplicity of installation, I wired just one 240v Socket with integral RCD to the inverter. This is mounted on the floor behind the drivers seat, next to the opening side door. The inverter remote switch for powering up is mounted on the rear detachable panel under the Driver’s seat. There is a picture of this in the earlier threads I posted. We use this for SWMBO’s hairdryer/tongs, our low wattage 2-slice toaster and from time to time for limited use of our single “ring” induction hob on a table outside under the awning. Without EHU, I decided that any serious energy needs (boiling kettle and cooking) would be best using gas from the Gaslow system we had installed.

 

[cmcardle75]

The advice from Schaudt was to use the AGM setting on the Electroblock. This would perhaps not completely recharge the Lithium Batteries on EHU alone, but would do no harm. LIFOS confirmed the same.

I wouldn't be so sure. An AGM profile will likely have a much higher float voltage than is appropriate for a LiFePO4. You could end up frying the anode if left plugged in. Ideally, your profile should have no float or all, or a much lower one (i.e. 13V) than would be appropriate for any lead acid. It is likely also to have far extended absorbtion phase than required for Lithium, which will cause wear.

 

[gerry mcg]

reading the EBL119 manual, the gel and AGM have the same float voltage of 13.7A

and Lithium (LiFePo4) float voltage on a Sterling BB1260 is 13.6v

my van does not spend extended periods on hookup, so i guess the Solar with a lithium setting will cope with the main charging of the lithium battery, together with the B2B - providing the top up before use - the h/u woukd be occasional / in winter use and even at that - only if we were not planning on driving for more than a short while given the increaced charge rate the lithium and B2B would give - so possibly not a major concern

 

[Googlebot]

I fitted one under the seat, though not in a PVC.

I put it on its side.

Link to the thread is in my signature.

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[gerry mcg]

Millcourt
What capacity / physical size are you 2 lithium batteries? I couldn't see that in your posts..
Interested because of the physical fit under the seat
And where from? Was it
Are they a pair of Lifos68's

 

[Millcourt]

I wouldn't be so sure. An AGM profile will likely have a much higher float voltage than is appropriate for a LiFePO4. You could end up frying the anode if left plugged in. Ideally, your profile should have no float or all, or a much lower one (i.e. 13V) than would be appropriate for any lead acid. It is likely also to have far extended absorbtion phase than required for Lithium, which will cause wear.

On the Solar Technology website the claim for LIFOS is:

Compatible with every charger and DC to DC converter on the market, Lifos is a direct swap for a lead acid leisure battery.​

My understanding is that the inbuilt BMS in each battery takes care of the required charging regime. The voltage from the B2B appears to be higher than the AGM setting on the Electroblock charger output and as this is connected directly to the 2 LIFOS batteries (wired in parallel) and not via the Electroblock (which simply did not work) the B2B output is only being managed by the BMSs. So far no problems.

gerry mcg
The LIFOS are a pair of 68 Ah batteries. When bought in July 2019, there was not a 105 Ah version on the market. I bought them from BBL Batteries in Exeter, as they were on offer with a 100 watt solar panel FOC with each battery. However, I was given incorrect advice about the pre-installation charging necessary to match the pair and there was also a problem with the pair remaining in sync (which Solar Technology later explained was due to them being from different production batches). These two batteries were subsequently exchanged by SMC (which Solar Technology arranged FOC) but these turned out also to be taken at random from SMC’s stock and not from the same batch, and also proved to be mismatched, resulting in one shutting down and going into a self-protection mode. Solar Technology invited me to their premises in Tewksbury where they exchanged the 2 batteries for a matched pair from the same production batch. All has worked well since, giving me 2 x 68 Ah = 136 Ah, which I have run down to around 5% on one occasion to satisfy myself that I have got a usable capacity in excess of 120 Ah if needed, rather than the 50% usable capacity of the single original 95 Ah lead-acid battery supplied from new. Also, I now have the added benefit of much faster charging with the B2B and the ability of the Lithium batteries to absorb this.

 

[gerry mcg]

brought over from here

It can be done but wiring the B2B into the EBL, as suggested by Votronic, avoids several issues. I know I tried it both ways.

i guess it is the Votronic VCC 1212‐45 IUoU‐Li you are referring to?
can you expand on what "issues" in your experienc, it helps avoid over a direct B2B connection to LiFePO4 batteries (bearing in mind my Victron MPPT controller connects direct to my liesure batteries at the moment and does not pass through the EBL?

 

[Pausim]

The main advantage is by feeding the B2B positive output in via B1 it uses the battery cut off relay. If you wire directly to the battery and leave the original wiring in place this relay has to be disabled or disconnected to avoid creating a loop that feeds your B2B back to the engine battery and itself. The easy route is to use the original B1 connection to the engine battery to power the B2B and wire as shown.

 

[gerry mcg]

^Thanks. Useful to know.

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[gerry mcg]

Ive fixed Millcourt ’s links here for ease of finding them

Campscout……. First 10 weeks, plus recent Lifos/Inverter addition

LIFOS/Inverter/B2B....... one year on and

Love the Lithium’s - Post no 80