Sub 3500 kg vans

[jopparocks]

Looks like a bit of hit and run posting from Graham. Not one reply to any of the responses. One might even describe it as trolling.

 

[two]

I have a 3500 kgs pvc and I am an idiot, although for many reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with motorhoming.

I, too, have a 3500kg motorhome, so must be an idiot.
I didn't know but, obviously, I wouldn't...

 

[nicholsong]

I'd love to see a dealer prosecuted under the the CPRs (The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008).

Misleading omissions​

Regulation 6 prohibits giving insufficient information about a product. It is a breach of the CPRs to fail to give consumers the information they need to make an informed choice in relation to a product if this would cause, or be likely to cause, the average consumer to take a different transactional decision - for example, in order to make an informed decision about whether to buy or how much to pay, the average consumer buying a car needs to know whether the car has previously been an insurance write-off; the trader therefore has to disclose this information, whether or not the consumer asks for it.

Traders must give information to consumers in a timely manner. It should be provided to assist the consumer in making an informed choice. Supplying information too late could constitute an omission.

It is a breach of the CPRs to:

• omit material information
• hide material information
• provide material information in a manner that is unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely
• fail to identify the commercial intent (unless this is apparent from the context)

'Material information' means information that the consumer needs to make an informed transactional decision and generally any information required to be given by law.

From: https://www.businesscompanion.info/...ctice/consumer-protection-from-unfair-trading

I would say that it is a breach if a customer buys a motorhome which can only reasonably be used in an overweight state. Or where they can only pack the very lightest child and leave the others at home

I found dealers to very cagey when asked about weights

I agree that this could be used against a dealer, but the problem comes with the evidence to prove that the payload is inadequate.

If the dealer sells a MH for which even the weighbridge weight empty is below the MAM, then his defence would be 'It is up to the buyer what he puts in it.

To overcome that defence one would need to state, in writing, the purpose and weights that one intended to put the vehicle to (e.g we are a family of 4 and want to leave home with full tanks and 4 bicycles). I think that at that point the dealer would lose interest in the sale of most 500kg vehicles. Even if one specified 2 persons, bicycles and full tanks.

Most buyers do not ask enough about payload.

Often dealers will take delivery of a ex-factory vehicle which has been fitted with extras like an awning, because that is all the converter is offering, then quote the MIRO ex-factory without the extras. That obviously would breach the Regulation quoted.

Geoff

 

[nicholsong]

I weigh my Carthago Compactline ( marketed as "super lightweight") on a worse case scenario. Full water & fuel. It was bang on 3500. When I bought it I weighed it empty bar about 20L of fuel and water plus the two of us. It came to 2940 IIRC. 560KG to play with - no problems I thought. Surprising how the "essentials" add up. 3500Kg does enable you to avoid traffic restrictions in many places, particularly France.

I have always taken the practical, not legal, view that these restrictions were imposed to prevent 7.5 tonners access to narrow streets and that us MHomers who could be under or just over that, but the same dimensions, would not cause a problem. I have not heard of local police stopping a MH and checking the plate.

Geoff

 

[nicholsong]

Having been stopped and weighed (under phew!!) just outside Limoges got chatting to one of the traffic officials not a policeman he just. Checked the weights. He reckoned over the last few weeks percentage wise more French vans were overloaded compared to other countries as many vans are sold as below 3500 kg but if they get dirty they will be over weight.

This is often an interesting topic about whether those conducting weight checks refer to the weight plate or V5c. I know that in UK DVSA will use the plated-weight.

Please tell us what the French check used.

Thanks, Geoff

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Graham of Madrid]

Looks like a bit of hit and run posting from Graham. Not one reply to any of the responses. One might even describe it as trolling.

?? I don't understand you ??

I only asked wat people thought.

What are you talking about trolling - ??

 

[chaser]

?? I don't understand you ??

I only asked wat people thought.

What are you talking about trolling - ??

Has anyone on here commented negatively on your van.?
Don't know how they would know how heavy it is.

 

[Graham of Madrid]

No Chaser, why ? With respects, it was just a question about what people thought. Nothing more.

 

[chaser]

No Chaser, why ? With respects, it was just a question about what people thought. Nothing more.

Just wondered why you needed to ask the question because I have never seen anything even hinted at before.

 

[Jamesh]

Of course there is snobbery from the C1 drivers towards the 3500kg lightweights.
No payload, vans are sold are unusable etc!!!

Happens in all walks of life.

Power tools / hand tools

Road Vs mountain bikes

Detached Vs semi Vs terrace.

Public Vs private sector

Cheers James

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[deleted79651]

Of course there is snobbery from the C1 drivers towards the 3500kg lightweights.
No payload, vans are sold are unusable etc!!!

Happens in all walks of life.

Power tools / hand tools

Road Vs mountain bikes

Detached Vs semi Vs terrace.

Public Vs private sector

Cheers James

As the owner of a terraced property [that has been converted to a pair of flats, so I don't even have the house ...] who drives a 3500kg m/home and who worked in the public sector [and, worse still, the Third Sector] before retirement, I have been trebly disadvantaged ... Worse still, this revelation comes on the day that I discover that the State Pension Triple Lock is to be abandoned for next year, so I face being plunged into abject poverty and shall have to limit my m/home speed to 37mph even on dual carriageways so that I can squeeze every drop of economy from each skyrocketing priced litre of diesel. Bet they'll stop selling it by the 1/2 litre tomorrow, just you wait and see. Oh, woe is me, O me miserum, what further depradations must I suffer in this wretched life?

Still, mustn't grumble, eh? Worse things happen at sea. Which reminds me, I shall have to cancel the Ferry Crossing as well ...

Steve

 

[Jonno1103]

I agree that this could be used against a dealer, but the problem comes with the evidence to prove that the payload is inadequate.

If the dealer sells a MH for which even the weighbridge weight empty is below the MAM, then his defence would be 'It is up to the buyer what he puts in it.

To overcome that defence one would need to state, in writing, the purpose and weights that one intended to put the vehicle to (e.g we are a family of 4 and want to leave home with full tanks and 4 bicycles). I think that at that point the dealer would lose interest in the sale of most 500kg vehicles. Even if one specified 2 persons, bicycles and full tanks.

Most buyers do not ask enough about payload.

Often dealers will take delivery of a ex-factory vehicle which has been fitted with extras like an awning, because that is all the converter is offering, then quote the MIRO ex-factory without the extras. That obviously would breach the Regulation quoted.

Geoff

If you buy a British van with a factory fitted awning it's reflected in the Mass In Service on the V5... It denotes the weight of the vehicle as it leaves the factory including 75kg for the driver and 90% fuel.
You'll also find in most cases that they'll also be below what is advertised on websites and in brochures because the online and print media is designed to cover the builders liability.

Where cost option awnings are not factory fit the literature will state 'dealer fit' this signifies that the addition will need to be added to your Mass In Service and deducted from your remaining payload.

How many mainland Euro built motorhomes actually have a mass in service - figure 'G' on the V5 when sold in the U.K.? Very few, if any. This is why there is so much debate surrounding payload.

British motorhomes seem to have less payload because European built motorhome brochures and websites advertise weights of base vehicles with nothing added, on many that even includes leisure batteries. European motorhome configurators aren't reflective of models built for the U.K. market.

Our 7.3m 2/4 berth 3500kg Auto Trail F Line F70 is stated on line and in print media as weighing 3000kg with 500kg payload. It actually weighs 2868kg after two option packs including cab air con and a 6 speed auto box were fitted.

As Marchie I too have a weight breakdown of everything we carry even down to what 15 T shirts & 15 pairs of boxers weigh.

I'd also argue that no motorhome built this century has solid wood furniture, most will be a mix of 10mm, 12mm & 15mm ply. It's the ones that use the thinner 8mm that need to be watched. Hardly any motorhomes are built using aluminium skins and wood frames either which also significantly lowers the weight of the conversion.

This adage of 'built to last' is a myth... they're simply built using the most cost effective viable materials available at the time. Technology moves on. People don't. Solid wood attracts and retains moisture, personally I wouldn't want a motorhome built using the stuff.

 

[deleted79651]

If you buy a British van with a factory fitted awning it's reflected in the Mass In Service on the V5... It denotes the weight of the vehicle as it leaves the factory including 75kg for the driver and 90% fuel.
You'll also find in most cases that they'll also be below what is advertised on websites and in brochures because the online and print media is designed to cover the builders liability.

Where cost option awnings are not factory fit the literature will state 'dealer fit' this signifies that the addition will need to be added to your Mass In Service and deducted from your remaining payload.

How many mainland Euro built motorhomes actually have a mass in service - figure 'G' on the V5 when sold in the U.K.? Very few, if any. This is why there is so much debate surrounding payload.

British motorhomes seem to have less payload because European built motorhome brochures and websites advertise weights of base vehicles with nothing added, on many that even includes leisure batteries. European motorhome configurators aren't reflective of models built for the U.K. market.

Our 7.3m 2/4 berth 3500kg Auto Trail F Line F70 is stated on line and in print media as weighing 3000kg with 500kg payload. It actually weighs 2868kg after two option packs including cab air con and a 6 speed auto box were fitted.

As Marchie I too have a weight breakdown of everything we carry even down to what 15 T shirts & 15 pairs of boxers weigh.

I'd also argue that no motorhome built this century has solid wood furniture, most will be a mix of 10mm, 12mm & 15mm ply. It's the ones that use the thinner 8mm that need to be watched. Hardly any motorhomes are built using aluminium skins and wood frames either which also significantly lowers the weight of the conversion.

This adage of 'built to last' is a myth... they're simply built using the most cost effective viable materials available at the time. Technology moves on. People don't. Solid wood attracts and retains moisture, personally I wouldn't want a motorhome built using the stuff.

It was going so well until I reached the penultimate sentence of your post. You've got me worried about my head now, specifically the brain ... Might explain some of my recent confusion, though ...

Steve

 

[Southdowners]

Of course there is snobbery from the C1 drivers towards the 3500kg lightweights.
No payload, vans are sold are unusable etc!!!

That's not snobbery... it is people giving their opinions and/or stating facts.

It does appear that some motorhomes do have very little payload. Isn't it better this is pointed out rather than someone buying a vehicle and finding out that doesn't suit their needs.

 

[deleted79651]

That's not snobbery... it is people giving their opinions and/or stating facts.

It does appear that some motorhomes do have very little payload. Isn't it better this is pointed out rather than someone buying a vehicle and finding out that doesn't suit their needs.

Dunno, but as an ex resident of West Sussex, is the weather poor down there just now? Every second post seems to emanate from that neck of the woods today

Steve [who once graced County Hall with his presence, until they worked out where the problem lay]

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Southdowners]

Your point being?

 

[gus-lopez]

Looks like a bit of hit and run posting from Graham. Not one reply to any of the responses. One might even describe it as trolling.

Graham often has a day between posts. some have to work.

ow many mainland Euro built motorhomes actually have a mass in service - figure 'G' on the V5 when sold in the U.K.? Very few, if any. This is why there is so much debate surrounding payload.

Yet here they have to show an 'unladen weight ' on the logbook?

 

[Graham of Madrid]

Graham often has a day between posts. some have to work.

It's my 6 year old (approx 25 kg - please don't quote me !) - she's back at school

I know my payload but I have not weighed Peppa Pig yet !!

 

[Northernraider]

I do, Lenny, but I am a total anal retentive!

I'm happy with our 693kg payload for the purposes of legality and safety [I weighed everything individually, 'cos I'm an anal retentive; have I mentioned that?], and made sure that I would be road legal with a full tank of diesel and a full tank of fresh water and all the food, clothes, tools etc. My grouse is that the 130bhp Euro 5 engine at anything above about 3300kg drinks diesel like a Derv dipsomaniac, and acceleration is measured in hours [I must be the only m/home driver to have been stopped for loitering with intent when driving flat out ...], rather than seconds

But we all have our crosses to bear; and I am Elaine's [as she reminded me only this morning ...]

Steve

Im just curious whether being "anally retentive " has the same meaning down south as it does up here ?

Cos in Scotland ...at least in fife if someone says youre anally retentive it means you're full of shit

And ive yet to see anyone actually admit to or indeed be proud of that title

 

[glenn2926]

Of course there is snobbery from the C1 drivers towards the 3500kg lightweights.
No payload, vans are sold are unusable etc!!!

Happens in all walks of life.

Power tools / hand tools

Road Vs mountain bikes

Detached Vs semi Vs terrace.

Public Vs private sector

Cheers James

Now listen here, how am I supposed to keep up with who looks down on who without guidance?
I have a 4tonne van, do I look down on 3.5tonne vans or do they look down on me?
I need the rules on the snobbery bit explaining.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Northernraider]

Now listen here, how am I supposed to keep up with who looks down on who without guidance?
I have a 4tonne van, do I look down on 3.5tonne vans or do they look down on me?
I need the rules on the snobbery bit explaining.

I suppose that will depend on the suspension and if fully loaded or not lol. My 7.5 t van certainly sits higher than those piddly 3.5t ones so i look down on those

 

[deleted79651]

Im just curious whether being "anally retentive " has the same meaning down south as it does up here ?

Cos in Scotland ...at least in fife if someone says youre anally retentive it means you're full of shit

And ive yet to see anyone actually admit to or indeed be proud of that title

You may have noticed that I live in Fife, but I am certainly not full of excrement, because I enjoy a very high fibre diet that requires the Van toilet cassette to be emptied at least every 24 hours for both weight and volume reasons after my daily deposit. My diagnosis as a 'complete anal retentive' was made by a former Senior Social Worker colleague, and is therefore not derived from a pejorative term. Rather, it describes my need to gather the minutiae of data and to then undertake analysis purely for the sake of analysis, and to recall some derived fact or figure from analysis I completed some 30 to 40 years ago. It does no harm and it keeps me at peace.

True to my condition, I shall conclude by pointing out that you have still to see anyone admit to being an anal retentive since we have never crossed paths. I also never claimed any pride in being an anal retentive, I offer the admission to explain my obsession with the minutiae of life because my behaviourial traits can make some folk a wee bit uneasy. Finally, in the spirit of my anal retentive traits, I would point out that 'anally retentive' has the same definition, irrespective of the geographical region of the UK in which it is used. The slang connotations can, and do, vary from region to region.

Steve

 

[Graham of Madrid]

The idiots are the manufacturers who produce 3500kg vans with payloads so small they are unable to be used legally. A lot of people buy vans without knowing anything about payloads, same with cars how many check the payload when they buy a car.

The manufacturers seem to be doing quite well considering you say they are idiots. I wonder what that says about the people buying them ?

I truly understand that some manufactures are less than transparent about payload and people need to know about the pitfalls but there seems to be an abundance of opinion and a lack of fact on this matter considering recent improvements in vehicle design meaning they are now lighter and have more payload

More than half the members on this forum are using 3500kg vans. I wonder how many are being used illegally ?

Is this honestly all about informing new members about payload or informing over half the members on this forum that they may have made the wrong choice ?

 

[Northernraider]

You may have noticed that I live in Fife, but I am certainly not full of excrement, because I enjoy a very high fibre diet that requires the Van toilet cassette to be emptied at least every 24 hours for both weight and volume reasons after my daily deposit. My diagnosis as a 'complete anal retentive' was made by a former Senior Social Worker colleague, and is therefore not derived from a pejorative term. Rather, it describes my need to gather the minutiae of data and to then undertake analysis purely for the sake of analysis, and to recall some derived fact or figure from analysis I completed some 30 to 40 years ago. It does no harm and it keeps me at peace.

True to my condition, I shall conclude by pointing out that you have still to see anyone admit to being an anal retentive since we have never crossed paths. I also never claimed any pride in being an anal retentive, I offer the admission to explain my obsession with the minutiae of life because my behaviourial traits can make some folk a wee bit uneasy. Finally, in the spirit of my anal retentive traits, I would point out that 'anally retentive' has the same definition, irrespective of the geographical region of the UK in which it is used. The slang connotations can, and do, vary from region to region.

Steve

Ive always just called that being anal about something...

But not analy retentive about it

I mean there are things im anal about and that just means im strict/thorough etc .

Different meanings though.

 

[Lenny HB]

The manufacturers seem to be doing quite well considering you say they are idiots. I wonder what that says about the people buying them ?

More than half the members on this forum are using 3500kg vans. I wonder how many are being used illegally ?

On this forum not many but in the big wide world probably many thousands.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Graham of Madrid]

I understand that more than half the members on here are 3500kg owners. Have they all made the same mistake ?

 

[Jonno1103]

Yet here they have to show an 'unladen weight ' on the logbook?

In the U.K. you get [Y]: Revenue weight 3500kg Gross. F.1: Max. permissible weight, 3500kg & G: Mass in service 2868kg.

 

[Larrynwin]

I understand that more than half the members on here are 3500kg owners. Have they all made the same mistake ?

Probably not a mistake but an unavoidable choice due to circumstances for many .

 

[Northernraider]

I understand that more than half the members on here are 3500kg owners. Have they all made the same mistake ?

I don't think its a case of making a mistake its more a need of necessity in most cases. If you can only drive up to 3500kg for whatever reason including choice ...you just have to be that bit more careful not to overload.

Personally as long as i hold a c1 license ill buy over 3500kg because i dont want the additional worry about being overweight and because the road tax is cheaper on phgv than it is below 3.5t

 

[Jim]

I understand that more than half the members on here are 3500kg owners. Have they all made the same mistake ?

Buying a 3.5 ton motorhome is not a mistake. Buying any motorhome that does not have enough payload for your requirement is big a mistake.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}