Starter and Leisure Batteries dead after weekend hooked up at campsite

[dayman1]

Hi all,

We just spent a weekend at a campsite in our van. When we arrived to the campsite, reception was closed and we could not hook up to the mains power, and I am not that familiar with our Dometic fridge. I tried to switch it on with the switch for 12v. I left it on for a short while, less than an hour, and then we managed to get plugged in to the mains at the campsite so I then switched the fridge on to that.

We then spent the weekend and everything worked fine. We checked out yesterday, and parked a short distance away, went for lunch and came back about 3 hours later to find the battery light in our Elektroblock power unit flashing red, and the van was dead and would not start at all. I managed to jump it with a boost pack, and we drove home for 2 hours on the motorway, but when we got home the battery is still dead and the light still flashing. The leisure battery is also dead.

I'm really not sure what might have happened, but it maybe seems as if something is draining the batteries now that we are not on the EHU, any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Welcome to the Fun

12V fridge, assuming the three way gas, mains, 12V type rather than compressor should only be on 12V whilst driving. It will flatten batteries quick so on site use gas or mains.

On many vehicles the 12V fridge will come from the engine, so flattens that battery. Make sure the fridge is now off.

 

[Jofang]

Although we have 450W solar we seldom use fridge on 12V when parked, as it can drain the batteries (2x120AH) to below 12.0V overnight. Unless we have EHU we always use gas when parked, as it is more efficient and useage is minimal, very little more than a pilot light on a stove.

 

[ChrisL]

Now you're home put your batteries on charge immediately, the longer they are left in a discharged state the more likely it is that they will be damaged beyond saving, assuming they are a lead acid variant, the next thing to do would be to get a multimeter (preferably a true RMS DC clamp meter) and check the voltage of the batteries whilst they are being charged so you can ascertain if the charging systems are working properly and then once charged use the clamp meter to find out how much current is being drawn from which battery whilst you are off hookup. If the fridge is an AES type it should be possible to leave it set at automatic, this means that it will automatically switch between power sources so if 240v is present it will use that, if not it will use gas but automatically switch to 12v when the engine is running, if you override the automatic selection and select 12v it will flatten the battery quite quickly.

 

[autorouter]

If your fridge has Automatic Energy Selection (AES), it will switch to gas when parked when there is no mains hookup. If hookup is available, it will switch to 240V mains. When the engine is running, it will switch to 12v - it will be powered from the alternator, which will also be charging the batteries at the same time.

When the engine stops, it switches back to gas automatically (there is a safety delay of about 15 minutes, to avoid the gas flame firing up when you stop for fuel)

It's a good idea to stick to this, if you are switching manually, unless there is a very good reason to change it.

Switching to '12V' when the engine isn't running will flatten the batteries in a few hours. It is useful on rare occasions, like on a ferry when you have to shut off the gas. But usually something to avoid.

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[Lenny HB]

Sounds like you may not have had the mains charger turned on.
I don't think you have an Elektroblock they don't have any flashing lights.
I wouldn't expect the starter battery to go flat as well unless you were using the head unit a lot as they are normally wired to the starter battery.

 

[autorouter]

You say there is an Elektroblock 12V distribution box, what make/model is it? Is it a Schaudt EBL type, or a different brand like Sargent, CBE, Nordelettronica, BCA etc?. They often have a switch that allows the habitation items to be powered from the starter battery in an 'emergency'. But this switch is easy to get wrong, especially for newbies, so you end up with a flat starter battery.

Normally great care is taken to ensure that the vehicle will start OK even if the habitation battery is totally flat. But it looks like this safeguard has been bypassed in your situation.

 

[dayman1]

Welcome to the Fun

12V fridge, assuming the three way gas, mains, 12V type rather than compressor should only be on 12V whilst driving. It will flatten batteries quick so on site use gas or mains.

On many vehicles the 12V fridge will come from the engine, so flattens that battery. Make sure the fridge is now off.

Thanks, we are loving it since we got our van last year this is the first major issue we have run into, but I'm relieved beyond belief that I had a booster pack with me to get us home! yes the fridge is three way, although not automatic switching unfortunately. The fridge is now off until I figure out the problem.

Now you're home put your batteries on charge immediately, the longer they are left in a discharged state the more likely it is that they will be damaged beyond saving, assuming they are a lead acid variant, the next thing to do would be to get a multimeter (preferably a true RMS DC clamp meter) and check the voltage of the batteries whilst they are being charged so you can ascertain if the charging systems are working properly and then once charged use the clamp meter to find out how much current is being drawn from which battery whilst you are off hookup. If the fridge is an AES type it should be possible to leave it set at automatic, this means that it will automatically switch between power sources so if 240v is present it will use that, if not it will use gas but automatically switch to 12v when the engine is running, if you override the automatic selection and select 12v it will flatten the battery quite quickly.

First thing I'll do now is go get a charger and charge up the batteries, the leisure is charging via the solar panel but I'm going to disconnect the engine battery and bring it inside to charge up. I'll check the voltage and see if it is charging ok, hopefully it isn't completely destroyed. Unfortunately the fridge is not automatic but I think I'll be sticking with using it only on mains for now. It is quite old, and I could not get it to start on the gas so I think I may need to get the fridge looked at in any case.

 

[dayman1]

You say there is an Elektroblock 12V distribution box, what make/model is it? Is it a Schaudt EBL type, or a different brand like Sargent, CBE, Nordelettronica, BCA etc?. They often have a switch that allows the habitation items to be powered from the starter battery in an 'emergency'. But this switch is easy to get wrong, especially for newbies, so you end up with a flat starter battery.

Normally great care is taken to ensure that the vehicle will start OK even if the habitation battery is totally flat. But it looks like this safeguard has been bypassed in your situation.

It's a Schaudt EBL263-5, and I am now wondering if I accidentally switched the power to the starter battery accidentally and that has run the battery down.

Foolishly enough I actually didn't think that switched power sources, I thought it was merely an indicator of battery charge for the batteries.

Sounds like you may not have had the mains charger turned on.
I don't think you have an Elektroblock they don't have any flashing lights.
I wouldn't expect the starter battery to go flat as well unless you were using the head unit a lot as they are normally wired to the starter battery.

The image above is the unit we have, the red light is flashing consistently. How would I know if the mains charger was on or off, I didn't know this was a possibility?

Thanks

 

[autorouter]

It is quite old, and I could not get it to start on the gas so I think I may need to get the fridge looked at in any case.

They can be a bit temperamental on gas, especially if it's not been used on gas for a long time. It takes time to purge the air from the gas pipes, spark electrode might be mis-positioned, the gas burner jet might need cleaning etc. But once it's working it should work OK. Our old fridge (2006) still works fine on gas, mains and 12V. Usually you can get access to the burner by the lower external fridge vent, so servicing is fairly easy, no fridge removal required.

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[dayman1]

They can be a bit temperamental on gas, especially if it's not been used on gas for a long time. It takes time to purge the air from the gas pipes, spark electrode might be mis-positioned, the gas burner jet might need cleaning etc. But once it's working it should work OK. Our old fridge (2006) still works fine on gas, mains and 12V). Usually you can get access to the burner by the lower external fridge vent, so servicing is fairly easy, no fridge removal required.

Ah, I will look at the external vent to see if I can get in, thanks for the info. Ours is a 2008 and the gas hasn't been used for at least a year probably a bit longer.

 

[Jofang]

If you're going to investigate the gas side of your fridge, I've found it's very simple to do a basic clean to get the gas flame working. I am no way an expert on this, but I've twice had the problem of dust, fluff or small particle blocking the spark igniter from operating. When the van outer wall cover is removed, the spark igniter can be observed and carefully cleaned if necessary.

 

[autorouter]

I noticed that the Waste Water heating switch appears to be on - the LED indicator looks like a very dull yellow rather than properly off. That's the left-hand switch on the lower right panel. It takes 6A, which is quite a high drain, enough to flatten a battery if left on overnight. Its purpose is to stop the waste tank freezing, and typically you would be on mains hookup in that situation. I guess this weather it's been left on inadvertently.

Note that the switch is wired like a European switch, not a UK one, so to UK users it might appear to be off when it is in fact on. Press the bottom of the rocker switch to switch it off.

 

[dayman1]

If you're going to investigate the gas side of your fridge, I've found it's very simple to do a basic clean to get the gas flame working. I am no way an expert on this, but I've twice had the problem of dust, fluff or small particle blocking the spark igniter from operating. When the van outer wall cover is removed, the spark igniter can be observed and carefully cleaned if necessary.

Good to know, thanks I will take a look at the spark igniter as well back there.

I noticed that the Waste Water heating switch appears to be on - the LED indicator looks like a very dull yellow rather than properly off. That's the left-hand switch on the lower right panel. It takes 6A, which is quite a high drain, enough to flatten a battery if left on overnight. Its purpose is to stop the waste tank freezing, and typically you would be on mains hookup in that situation. I guess this weather it's been left on inadvertently.

I will double check but I don't think these LEDs are on, my phone took a long exposure photo because it was dark and I think it looks dimly lit as a result but I will double check this to be 100% certain, thanks for pointing it out!

 

[Lenny HB]

It's a Schaudt EBL263-5, and I am now wondering if I accidentally switched the power to the starter battery accidentally and that has run the battery down.

Foolishly enough I actually didn't think that switched power sources, I thought it was merely an indicator of battery charge for the batteries.

View attachment 940046


The image above is the unit we have, the red light is flashing consistently. How would I know if the mains charger was on or off, I didn't know this was a possibility?

Thanks

Not seen a control panel with the Elektroblock name on it before normally labelled Schaudt. We normally refer to the distribution unit as the Elekroblock.

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[autorouter]

How would I know if the mains charger was on or off, I didn't know this was a possibility?

When the mains charger is on, the indicator light in the top left panel will be on. All the time. Enough to get annoying at night. So I think someone's stuck something over it. Same with the '12V' indicator nearby. The mains indicator is an output of the charger, so the charger is definitely on if that light is lit.

 

[autorouter]

Foolishly enough I actually didn't think that switched power sources, I thought it was merely an indicator of battery charge for the batteries.

It's only a test indicator, it doesn't actually switch the power source. Other brands often do, but Schaudt Elektroblocks don't.

There should be a 30A fuse next to the starter battery, and another 30A fuse next to the leisure battery. Both of those fuses have to be good for the leisure battery to be charged from the alternator when the engine is running.

 

[PlacidoD]

Returning to gas operation:

1. I believe there is a circa 15 minute window when the gas on the fridge will not work when switching from 12 volt as a safety feature. The purpose is to stop people switching to gas while the engine is switched off in a PFS given the naked flame.
2. Some fridges have piezo spark devices. Others (including mine) have an AAA battery. In a noisy environment it can be quite difficult to hear the igniter firing away.
3. Much like the gas hob you have to hold the knob in. Once ignited the thermo-coupler device will eventually register the flame.

It took quite a while for me to be sure mine was working properly. All is well for me (Except I still have not found out how to change the battery in the igniter. The manual says something like twisting the button through 90 degrees but I realised it was working before I got round to checking that feature)

 

[rb62]

The red light is flashing because the habitation is below 10.8v,at least that what the manual says!

SCHAUDT EBL 263-5 OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS MANUAL Pdf Download

View and Download Schaudt EBL 263-5 operating instructions manual online. EBL 263-5 power supply pdf manual download. Also for: 911.056.

www.manualslib.com

 

[ChrisL]

dayman1 unfortunately if you haven't subscribed you only get 5 free posts, subs are only £20/year and you could make that back in discounts and advise saving you money. It's well worth the investment.

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[L' Hobo]

Welcome to the Fun

12V fridge, assuming the three way gas, mains, 12V type rather than compressor should only be on 12V whilst driving. It will flatten batteries quick so on site use gas or mains.

On many vehicles the 12V fridge will come from the engine, so flattens that battery. Make sure the fridge is now off.

Interesting what you have to say about 3 way fridge.

I have one in my Murvi and I was under the impression that there was a relay in the circuit that disconnects by 12v power to the fridge immediately the engine is turned off so no drain on any battery, is this not correct?

Naturally, If on site but not on EHU I do manually turn it to gas otherwise it would stop keeping cool but otherwise, when I get home for instance, the control switch I leave wherever?

 

[L' Hobo]

Thanks, we are loving it since we got our van last year this is the first major issue we have run into, but I'm relieved beyond belief that I had a booster pack with me to get us home! yes the fridge is three way, although not automatic switching unfortunately. The fridge is now off until I figure out the problem.


First thing I'll do now is go get a charger and charge up the batteries, the leisure is charging via the solar panel but I'm going to disconnect the engine battery and bring it inside to charge up. I'll check the voltage and see if it is charging ok, hopefully it isn't completely destroyed. Unfortunately the fridge is not automatic but I think I'll be sticking with using it only on mains for now. It is quite old, and I could not get it to start on the gas so I think I may need to get the fridge looked at in any case.

I find if the fridge hasn't been used on gas for some time, the quickest way to purge the air from the gas system is to light the gas rings on the stove at the same time as the fridge.

 

[autorouter]

Interesting what you have to say about 3 way fridge.

I have one in my Murvi and I was under the impression that there was a relay in the circuit that disconnects by 12v power to the fridge immediately the engine is turned off so no drain on any battery, is this not correct?

You are correct, that is exactly how it is supposed to work, using the fridge relay. This model of EBL does not have the extra wiring that allows the fridge to run on 12V from the leisure battery, as is possible on my EBL101 for example. So the fridge is only ever on 12V when the engine is running.

I'm still not convinced we've found the cause of both of the batteries becoming flat. Those possible causes mentioned so far turn out not to be possible.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Interesting what you have to say about 3 way fridge.

I have one in my Murvi and I was under the impression that there was a relay in the circuit that disconnects by 12v power to the fridge immediately the engine is turned off so no drain on any battery, is this not correct?

Yes that is how it is supposed to work in most vans with 3 way fridges. But some have done wiring alterations, there can also be faults that allow the fridge to work off 12V, and if the van has (or perhaps could have had) a compressor fridge there would be a permanent 12V supply.

Weirdly my pathetic Autotrail's wiring controller (before I changed stuff) allowed me to select either the leisure or the engine battery to power the habitation side, as well as to select which battery the solar charged. So quite possible that issues with the habitation side can take out the engine, or vice versa.

To get back to the OP's issue, if the fridge wasn't supposed to be running on 12V, once the engine was stopped, there is the possibility that the charging relay system has got stuck open, which would cause both batteries to drain.

 

[dayman1]

dayman1 unfortunately if you haven't subscribed you only get 5 free posts, subs are only £20/year and you could make that back in discounts and advise saving you money. It's well worth the investment.

Thanks, I've subbed now so can finally reply!

A update for everyone, so I charged both the starter and leisure battery last night and this morning, and have now put them back in the van, all appears to be functioning as expected right now, engine started no problem and the 12v system is working fine. I've switched everything off and will see if the batteries drain again or if they hold their charge now.

Still none the wiser as to what might have caused it but the batteries cont seem to be the problem anway

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[autorouter]

Are you sure that waste tank heater is definitely switched off? It takes 6A, which will drain your batteries if left for hours.

 

[dayman1]

Are you sure that waste tank heater is definitely switched off? It takes 6A, which will drain your batteries if left for hours.

Yeah I checked and it is off, I switched it on and the light is clearly on, and then it goes off once I switch the switch off

 

[dayman1]

Another update for you all, I left the van for five or six hours, came out and the engine battery is flat as a pancake again. The leisure battery and 12v system seems to still be absolutely fine, so now it seems as if the engine battery is the problem, as it isn’t holding a charge.

I guess there is a chance that something is still draining the battery though.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Try and charge the engine battery again. Use a clamp meter to see if there is any current flowing from it. Will at least tell you if it's the battery that is goosed, or if there is something causing a drain.

 

[Jofang]

If you don't have a clamp meter to measure the current you can check for anything taking power from the battery by attaching the positive cable to the battery and then approach the negative terminal with the negative/earth lead very slowly and watch for a tiny spark. This best done in the dark, as the spark will be very small but visible if there is anything taking power from the battery.

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