Speeding in North yorkshire.

[GJH]

You're presumptions, deductions and conclusions are brilliant.. I'm 52 not 92 you know!!!
And i do between 15000-20000 miles a year in total on my 4 bikes, in my two cars and in my motorhome
I have twice had a copper pull out from a side road on me on my bike, the last time a couple of years ago. Fortunately, I was able to take avoiding action.


Anyway, my point was that there is a current understanding that speed=death/destruction and massive resources must be used indiscriminately to target speed.

As an example, we are told that the 94 year old Duke of Edinburgh has pulled across a busy single file road from one side-road to another, and hit a people carrier. The councils response is now in reducing the speed limit !!!! WTF? Where is speed involved? Bad driving, age related physical deteriation, medical issues maybe, but speed?

Without knowing how fast the Kia was going we simply can not know whether or not speed was involved can we?
However, that speed has been a factor in previous collisions is borne out by the fact that the LA has been considering taking action for some time.

 

[peterc10]

The road is 3 lanes wide, 2 running lanes and a central turning lane.

It was a T junction (Edit oops cross roads). And there is plenty of visibility both ways for any car turning out.

 

[pappajohn]

It was a T junction (Edit oops cross roads). And there is plenty of visibility both ways for any car turning out.

Yes, one road being unmade, but still a 3 lane main road.

Apologies for hijacking thread.

 

[nicholsong]

I have no problem with police treating dangerous driving as exactly that, coz that's what running anyone (not just an emotive small child) over is. The issue for me is the disproportionate resources that go into catching and prosecuting those speeding by a small amount - and particularly where the location makes it clear there is little reason for concern...

To use your analagy, would you prefer to tell a young person's family that they got stabbed and you had to scrape him/her off the pool of blood on the pavement coz all the coppers were away on speeding duty - or better still LEZ or congestion charge infringements?

It seems to me we have lost our sense of proportion with drivers right now, preferring to focus on easy transgressions, rather than real issues like homelessness, child poverty, anti-social behaviour, gangs, vandalism, burglary, public transport, low wages etc etc.

It seems to me that a driver doing 10mph too much is a hideous criminal deserving of the full weight of the law, whilst the mugger of an old lady is a victim of their own life and needs support & tax payers cash for rehabilitation

You detract from your point by including the matters I have highlighted which are not police matters, e.g. the LEZ is enforced by TfL, and child poverty etc.

Geoff

 

[EssexBoy]

W

Well of course speed restrictions must be indiscriminate. Unless you would prefer electronic signs that could go up or down as people who think they are great drivers approach. It is a fact that a speeding car which hits a pedestrian at 40 MPH will probably result in very serious injury or death. The same car doing 25 and the pedestrian may well Stand a better chance.

What is your suggestion on how speed should be regulated?

I'm sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear. I never said speed limits are bad or should be removed - although I would maybe challenge the level that has been set on a few round here

My only point is to challenge the notion that speed is the only important factor in preventing accidents and injuries.

The Duke pulled out in front of someone and nearly killed them. This is the only important factor in the accident. He needs to explain why he did it and maybe he should stop driving

The council have implemented the usual obligatory "blunt instrument" speed reduction that comes with any series of accidents. It's no surprise to me

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[PeteH]

Interesting!
If they used all the Tarmac used for sleeping policemen to fill holes would we get FREE pot hole filling

There was a story going round that when John Prescott was Minister of Transport (or roads or whatever these days) He was alleged to have been the "friend" of the contractor in the HULL area putting down hundreds of "Humps". Knowing John, and remembering his "Bar Tricks" from his time in the M-N, I could believe it!

 

[PeteH]

Speed limits are arbitrarily set, probably by office "dicks" in shiny suits, IMV. Consider a main trunk road with no real visibility issues (A1035), the L-A has reduced the limit from 60 to 50mph for long stretches The ONLY effect has been to 1) increase the number of convictions for speeding (luvly jubly) and the fuel costs for many. This works due to the fact that for example, my car is a 6 speed (semi auto) it will NOT engage 6th gear below 52mph.(not even on manual override, allegedly to protect the gearbox) At 50 it shows a consumption of 48mpg. At 54 in 6th the consumption goes to 59 or even 60+. So doing 50 (or less) I am effectively producing more pollution than at 55 or even 60+. Where is the logic in that.

 

[iandsm]

I'm sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear. I never said speed limits are bad or should be removed - although I would maybe challenge the level that has been set on a few round here

My only point is to challenge the notion that speed is the only important factor in preventing accidents and injuries.

The Duke pulled out in front of someone and nearly killed them. This is the only important factor in the accident. He needs to explain why he did it and maybe he should stop driving

The council have implemented the usual obligatory "blunt instrument" speed reduction that comes with any series of accidents. It's no surprise to me

I would certainly agree that speeding is a factor, but only one of many.

 

[GJH]

Speed limits are arbitrarily set, probably by office "dicks" in shiny suits, IMV. Consider a main trunk road with no real visibility issues (A1035), the L-A has reduced the limit from 60 to 50mph for long stretches The ONLY effect has been to 1) increase the number of convictions for speeding (luvly jubly) and the fuel costs for many. This works due to the fact that for example, my car is a 6 speed (semi auto) it will NOT engage 6th gear below 52mph.(not even on manual override, allegedly to protect the gearbox) At 50 it shows a consumption of 48mpg. At 54 in 6th the consumption goes to 59 or even 60+. So doing 50 (or less) I am effectively producing more pollution than at 55 or even 60+. Where is the logic in that.

Or perhaps you might ask "where is the logic in not buying a car suited to the driving conditions of this country?"

 

[GJH]

The council have implemented the usual obligatory "blunt instrument" speed reduction that comes with any series of accidents. It's no surprise to me

You could always write to them detailing your professional engineering qualifications and proving why you know better than their engineers

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[EssexBoy]

You could always write to them detailing your professional engineering qualifications and proving why you know better than their engineers

What makes you suggest it's an engineer's call Graham? As an engineer myself, i design solutions based on the clients parameters. In this case, I would suggest that the LA are so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc...

 

[EssexBoy]

Or perhaps you might ask "where is the logic in not buying a car suited to the driving conditions of this country?"

Or perhaps the car was bought then the goal posts were moved?

 

[EssexBoy]

I would certainly agree that speeding is a factor, but only one of many.

How many roadside vehicle safety checks are made versus vehicle speed checks?

 

[EssexBoy]

You detract from your point by including the matters I have highlighted which are not police matters, e.g. the LEZ is enforced by TfL, and child poverty etc.

Geoff

Bit pedantic, but OK, point taken...

My point was that we spend millions on speed checking - I'd much rather we spent a more proportionate amount on speeding and use it for more serious issues

Just thinking about the 42500 tickets in the original post. No positive safety result whatsoever, but a quick unscientific calculation suggests that at a £30 or £40 processing cost per ticket equals about £150,000 total - how far would that go in reducing knife crime?

 

[iandsm]

How many roadside vehicle safety checks are made versus vehicle speed checks?

I wouldn’t know but some of the contributing factors to crashes and injury are lack of attention, using mobile phones, distraction, alcohol,drugs, failure to anticipate, driver error etc. etc. Not to mention excess speed. And of course drivers who think they are more skilled than they actually are.

I would think that far more accidents are caused directly by drivers than faulty vehicles. One only has to drive for a few miles, particularly in cities to see some really bad examples.

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[PeteH]

Or perhaps you might ask "where is the logic in not buying a car suited to the driving conditions of this country?"

.

It WAS, before some "dick" decided to move the goal posts. After all they have to justify their existence

You could always write to them detailing your professional engineering qualifications and proving why you know better than their engineers

.

Hardly likely to be any (real) Engineer making that sort of decision, it will have been a political decision of the well known "Knee Jerk" variety to make the L-A "look" as though it was doing something. After all that is what ALL (so called) Public Servants are good at. The most accurate programme of that genre was "Yes Minister"!

 

[gus-lopez]

the only way to reduce accidents & to get people concentrating is a prolonged period of offering no assistance whatsoever until the road has been cleared & re-opened. If , due to the publics stupidity, it doesn't have the required effect we will at least have reduced the population by a considerable amount.

but a quick unscientific calculation suggests that at a £30 or £40 processing cost per ticket equals about £150,000 total - how far would that go in reducing knife crime?

i think you've lost a '0'- it's nearer 1,5 million.

 

[GJH]

What makes you suggest it's an engineer's call Graham? As an engineer myself, i design solutions based on the clients parameters. In this case, I would suggest that the LA are so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc...

Because engineers are the staff which LAs use for such work.
As you are an engineer then why not follow my suggestion and prove to the county council that it is "so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc"?

 

[GJH]

It WAS, before some "dick" decided to move the goal posts. After all they have to justify their existence

Long past time to change it then

Hardly likely to be any (real) Engineer making that sort of decision, it will have been a political decision of the well known "Knee Jerk" variety to make the L-A "look" as though it was doing something.
See my post above.

After all that is what ALL (so called) Public Servants are good at. The most accurate programme of that genre was "Yes Minister"!

And there is the real point isn't it?
The usual "Please Mam those other boys won't let me do just what I want and it's not fair".

 

[peterc10]

Because engineers are the staff which LAs use for such work.
As you are an engineer then why not follow my suggestion and prove to the county council that it is "so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc"?

Back in the old days these engineers were usually trained to HND or degree level in civil engineering and many were chartered engineers, being Members of the Institution of Civil Engineers. A few, like me, had done a final year option of highway and traffic engineering in their degree course. Nowadays you can get a degree in highway engineering, and there is now the Institute of Highway Engineers which, like the ICE, also offers professional qualifications registered with the Engineering Council to Chartered, Incorporated and Technician levels.

This work for the local authorities is still done by professionally qualified engineers, but most are now employed by specialist consultancies rather than directly by the authority. Traffic engineering, concerning the flow or traffic and what causes accidents etc was only in its infancy when I was studying it in the late 1960s and early 70s, and it is a much more sophisticated and specialist field nowadays. Just being an "engineer" won't cut it.

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[GJH]

Back in the old days these engineers were usually trained to HND or degree level in civil engineering and many were chartered engineers, being Members of the Institution of Civil Engineers. A few, like me, had done a final year option of highway and traffic engineering in their degree course. Nowadays you can get a degree in highway engineering, and there is now the Institute of Highway Engineers which, like the ICE, also offers professional qualifications registered with the Engineering Council to Chartered, Incorporated and Technician levels.

This work for the local authorities is still done by professionally qualified engineers, but most are now employed by specialist consultancies rather than directly by the authority. Traffic engineering, concerning the flow or traffic and what causes accidents etc was only in its infancy when I was studying it in the late 1960s and early 70s, and it is a much more sophisticated and specialist field nowadays. Just being an "engineer" won't cut it.

Which confirms my point.

 

[peterc10]

Which confirms my point.

It was meant to Graham

 

[GJH]

It was meant to Graham

Thank you

 

[SpeedyDux]

Because engineers are the staff which LAs use for such work.
As you are an engineer then why not follow my suggestion and prove to the county council that it is "so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc"?

It tends to be contracted out to consultancy firms like Mouchel. Our council bod in charge of traffic planning stuff doesn't even have a driving licence (allegedly). The resulting policy decisions seem to be based on whatever the loudest environmental and/or road safety pressure groups keep demanding. That's the impression I get.

 

[tonyidle]

Or perhaps the car was bought then the goal posts were moved?

I don't believe any modern car, large or small, copes well at speeds below cruise. If the engine capacity and gearing is optimised for economy and low emissions it will of necessity be less pleasant and less economical to drive at speeds below optimum. Economy and emissions requirements are being met by very small engines in a relatively high state of tune (even by the standards of 5 years ago) fitted to cars that not long ago would have been fitted with 2 litre power units. Specific outputs for 1000cc or 1200cc engines, both n/a and turbocharged, have increased dramatically. Good engine management alleviates but doesn't entirely remove the narrow range over which usable torque is available hence the need for the 6- and 7-speed gearboxes now commonly in use. None of this means lower speed limits should not be obeyed but it is something that should be considered when planning to implement 50mph limits.

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[GJH]

It tends to be contracted out to consultancy firms like Mouchel. Our council bod in charge of traffic planning stuff doesn't even have a driving licence (allegedly). The resulting policy decisions seem to be based on whatever the loudest environmental and/or road safety pressure groups keep demanding. That's the impression I get.

It may well be contracted out to consultants (as @peterc10 pointed out earlier) but so what? The work is still done by professionally qualified engineers.
They work on real evidence rather than just an "impression" based on what "seems to be".

 

[GJH]

I don't believe any modern car, large or small, copes well at speeds below cruise. If the engine capacity and gearing is optimised for economy and low emissions it will of necessity be less pleasant and less economical to drive at speeds below optimum. Economy and emissions requirements are being met by very small engines in a relatively high state of tune (even by the standards of 5 years ago) fitted to cars that not long ago would have been fitted with 2 litre power units. Specific outputs for 1000cc or 1200cc engines, both n/a and turbocharged, have increased dramatically. Good engine management alleviates but doesn't entirely remove the narrow range over which usable torque is available hence the need for the 6- and 7-speed gearboxes now commonly in use. None of this means lower speed limits should not be obeyed but it is something that should be considered when planning to implement 50mph limits.

Interesting. As a large proportion of the roads on which we all drive are subject to a 30 mph limit (and have been as long as most of us can remember) shouldn't we be able to expect that any car sold in this country would cope well with that speed?

 

[pappajohn]

Because engineers are the staff which LAs use for such work.
As you are an engineer then why not follow my suggestion and prove to the county council that it is "so risk averse that they are massively prioritising low speed limits over traffic flow/environmental protection etc"?

Even I can answer that Graham... Because Essex boy isn't employed by that LA and they would take no more notice of his findings and recommendations than they would of my dead granny even if he was the foremost engineer in the country.

 

[pappajohn]

As a large proportion of the roads on which we all drive are subject to a 30 mph limit

And a far larger, in the extreme, proportion arent.

 

[gus-lopez]

shouldn't we be able to expect that any car sold in this country would cope well with that speed?

No.
Most will not, including the new Tourneo connect I had which wasn't even able to be driven at 30mph in 4th.Only 3rd.The Mpv I had with 4 speed auto box + lock up was impossible to tow at the legal 50mph & they even advised holding it in 3rd when towing!!

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