Sorry, another Lithium battery thread

[Pausim]

The fairly well documented risks associated with most lithium battery technologies... or at least as i understood it ...
Ie the electrolite is known to be a flammable mix

There are different types of lithium batteries and referring to “most lithium battery technologies” isn’t helpful. There have been some issues with cobalt-oxide and manganese-oxide cathode batteries where heat is produced if the chemical bonds break down. Lithium leisure batteries are of a different type with iron phosphate cathodes (LiFePO4) which are chemically and mechanically stable i.e. they do not overheat if overcharged or physically damaged. The LiFePO4 batteries do not pack as much energy into the same space and weight as other lithium battery types so are not suited to some uses. However, they do stack up well against other leisure batteries being of comparable size and about half the weight.

 

[andy63]

thanks for the replies..
I take the points that have been made about the different technologies, and the main one been talked about ie the LiFepo4 not having the same energy density as some of the others and been generally more stable, but I'm still of the opinion it carries some risk peculiar to lithium technology...

I suppose it depends what article you read but my reading still indicates that the electrolyte in just about all the technologies is flammable and the charging and maintenance regime chosen for each technology is not just about longevity of the cell but also to stop damage from a safety point of view.. ie the prevention of internal short circuits and swelling of the cathode ...causing rupture .
ill leave it at that and keep reading what I think is an entertaining thread..
Andy

 

[funflair]

This https://www.amumot.de/lipo-lithium-batterie-wohnmobil/ is an interesting read BUT in German, I read it in Google Chrome with auto translate on, interesting that this guy explains that Lithium cells dont like 100% charge for best lifespans so they need a bit of nursing.

Martin

 

[Pausim]

This https://www.amumot.de/lipo-lithium-batterie-wohnmobil/ is an interesting read BUT in German, I read it in Google Chrome with auto translate on, interesting that this guy explains that Lithium cells dont like 100% charge for best lifespans so they need a bit of nursing.

Martin

I haven’t read the article because I am having download issues this morning. However, I was aware that for my LiFePO4 long term storage at 80% was recommended. The advantage of this is that during winter storage, where I do not have mains power, I don’t have to worry about topping up the battery every time I use it. My understanding is that the life of the battery is affected very little by fully charging it in normal use.
I will try again to download the article later.

 

[BillandHelen]

@nickvanbitz could I go back to my original question please?!! Regarding not charging the Li in sub zero temperatures, which we have quite often up here in Scotland, does the BMS have an external temperature sensor to stop this either from solar in storage or from b2b on startup and driving? Assume it does, so apologies again for amateur question!
Thanks Nick
Bill

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[NickandClair]

Hi Bill,
I cannot quote on other manufacturer's Li with built-in BMS, but the Li we offer does all the necessary management internally. This is another reason we use them, thus saving grief for the end user. The Li offered here is deliberately down-rated (The AL100ah has in fact 115ah of power, but keeps back 15ah for battery management) , as it holds back a certain amount of capacity for the BMS and charge conditions. The operating temperatures are -30 deg C to +60 deg C.

Lithium cells dont like 100% charge for best lifespans so they need a bit of nursing.

You are spot on, Li does require correct charging when using them, but it does go back to the manufacturer of the Li where this has to be either managed by yourself or if of a good quality, done by the Battery's BMS/Control components. Also as Li needs to be charged correctly by the vehicle when driving along, it is important that a good quality DC-DC/B2B unit is used. I believe this has been mentioned previous, but having a DC-DC/B2B charger will benefit you far more than just charging the Li alone!!

 

[ChrisL]

@nickvanbitz could I go back to my original question please?!! Regarding not charging the Li in sub zero temperatures, which we have quite often up here in Scotland, does the BMS have an external temperature sensor to stop this either from solar in storage or from b2b on startup and driving? Assume it does, so apologies again for amateur question!
Thanks Nick
Bill

Having read the article that funflair linked to and doing some googleing it seems there is more than one kind of Lithium Phosphate battery chemistry, LiFePO4 and also LiFeYPO4, the Y stands for Yttrium the addition of which to the cathode allows the cells to speed up electron transfer especially at cold temperatures, so it is perhaps this kind that vanbitz sell (I'm sure other dealers sell them as well) as they appear to have good cold weather performance. So it would pay to take extra care in purchasing if you are going to be using them in low temperature areas.

 

[Wissel]

Having read the article that funflair linked to and doing some googleing it seems there is more than one kind of Lithium Phosphate battery chemistry, LiFePO4 and also LiFeYPO4, the Y stands for Yttrium the addition of which to the cathode allows the cells to speed up electron transfer especially at cold temperatures, so it is perhaps this kind that vanbitz sell (I'm sure other dealers sell them as well) as they appear to have good cold weather performance. So it would pay to take extra care in purchasing if you are going to be using them in low temperature areas.

As far as I understand this, the lower temperature stated for LiFeYPO4 is just an operating temperature. Charging should still be greatly reduced at temps below zero.

My own cells are Winston, who own the patent on LiFeYPO4. Victron (and others) are as well, as they use Winston cells inside their batteries. This is from the Victron spec sheet:

This is from the Victron manual:

Warning: setting this temperature below 5°C voids the warranty. Charging a lithium iron phosphate battery below 5°C permanently damages the chemistry; reducing capacity

EDIT: I found a few more charging temp recommendations for different LiFePO4 batteries.
Relion:

Epsilon:

EZA:

NDS:

I couldn't find this info for the Sterling.

EDIT 2: Although most manufacturers state the lower temps that they recommend charging, it seems most of their BMS systems don't protect against this?

This seems a bad idea to me as how would anyone know if charging were safe?
Maybe I've just missed the info and they do protect against this.

My own BMS has a programmable cutoff for low temps, plus my charger monitors the battery and greatly reduces the current if temps are low, until the temps are above zero, then reverts back to full charging. Pretty sure this is what a Tesla super-charger does as well?

 

[Pausim]

I believe the BMS in the Relion RB100 shuts off charging if the battery is below temperature. They have also introduced a low temperature battery the RB100-LT which when below charging temperature diverts the initial incoming charge to heating elements, when up to temperature the charging proper begins. Not sure if this battery is currently available in the UK but it was launched last September in the USA.

 

[Wissel]

I believe the BMS in the Relion RB100 shuts off charging if the battery is below temperature.

I'm not so sure Paul. It isn't mentioned here in the documentation?

They have also introduced a low temperature battery the RB100-LT which when below charging temperature diverts the initial incoming charge to heating elements, when up to temperature the charging proper begins. Not sure if this battery is currently available in the UK but it was launched last September in the USA.

That's an interesting solution. I know for years some DIY LiFePO4 builders have been adding heat-mats, similar to in reptile cages, under their cells. I guess Relion has built this in on the LT.

EDIT: I've not seen ANY BMS that reduces the charge current in case of low temperature. They may exist, but I've not seen one

Even with the full Victron system I believe the BMS only switches the current off, which is all my own BMS can do as well.

This was one of my main reasons for choosing the charger I did - it was the only reputable charger I found that does supply a lower current at temps below zero.

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[ChrisL]

@Wissel can you tell us which charger you are using please, thanks in advance.

 

[Wissel]

@Wissel can you tell us which charger you are using please, thanks in advance.

Sure, I use a Votronic VBCS 60/40/430

It's not cheap, but as it's a combined B2B, MPPT and 240v charger, not overly expensive. Plus it has some great features - especially for LiFePO4. RoadPro are the UK importer, here's a link:


All the specs and manual are available here, on the Votronic website:
https://www.votronic.de/index.php/e...s-vbcs-triple/standard-version/vbcs-60-40-430

 

[TheDogMan]

The only lithium-ion phosphate industrial battery


CE and Intertek approved in the UK

Significant advances in battery technology are changing the way people think about portable power. Transporter Energy lithium-ion phosphate industrial batteries are the safe, reliable and efficient way to power your leisure time, from motorhomes and boats to golf buggies and horseboxes.

Extensive research and testing ensures our products achieve the highest levels of safety and consumer confidence.

If you have any doubts about your battery capacity, size, compatibility or more, please contact us or call on 01323 405 375. Transporter Energy will not take responsibility for our batteries being ordered and turning out incompatible.

Built-in battery management system
Built-in with no extra purchase required

• 100 Amps continuous
• 200 Amps surge for 30 seconds
• 1/2 second surge for larger loads
• High/low voltage protection
• Short circuit protection
• High/low temperature protection
• Automatic cell balancing

It gets very technical, its enough to get me worried about what I have had fitted

 

[andy63]

Automatic cell balancing

Another question
I didnt think the commercially available batteries had individual cell maintenance ... I thought or last time i was reading that cells were chosen with as near similar characteristics as possible and put together in a string and treated that way..
Anyone ??

 

[Pausim]

Another question
I didnt think the commercially available batteries had individual cell maintenance ... I thought or last time i was reading that cells were chosen with as near similar characteristics as possible and put together in a string and treated that way..
Anyone ??

Some use cell matching, some use cell balancing and some have both. My Relion has both and makes the following claim “Tests show that the cells are so precisely matched, batched together with high conformity and passive assembly design that the balancing function will remain innactive for most of the battery life.“

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[Wissel]

The only lithium-ion phosphate industrial battery


CE and Intertek approved in the UK

Same batteries as Battle Born in the USA (and Dragonfly).

They get quite good write-ups from what I've read (which isn't a massive amount). There's load of videos on YT etc about Battle Born.

As long as it's connected to suitable chargers, I wouldn't worry.

Well, depending on how the E-Mark question pans out at least - that may be an issue for all of us - but no more for us than anyone who has a cheap inverter or MPPT etc fitted.

There's a lot of them. If insurance companies do have a crackdown on non E-Marked products, I think they and this forum will be getting a lot of traffic

 

[Millcourt]

When I revived this thread last Monday to report the response I had received from the UK Vehicle Certification Agency, I highlighted their statement that "There is no need for an E-mark under automotive legislation on a battery". (This is not the same a the CE mark - see earlier postings.) However, @nickvanbitz has drawn attention to the probable need for this to satisfy insurance requirements and the potential dangers of using non-compliant (usually less expensive) products.

I was interested to have a look at the "Transporter Energy" products to which @TheDogMan refers in his recent posting. ( https://www.transporterenergy.co.uk/ ). This makes interesting reading and I notice that they make strong reference to CE marking, but their is no mention of E-marking or certification, which I presume means that either this is unnecessary or their Lithium Battery offerings are non-compliant.

All very confusing to me!

 

[TheDogMan]

I will see how mine perform over easter ( as long as its not a washout ) I want to try with no hook up just my solar panels, 5 or 6 nights

 

[BillandHelen]

@TheDogMan, as @Wissel says the Transporter lithium battery is the European brand name of Battle Born batteries which is a subsidiary of Dragonfly which do lithium for a wide variety of uses. Unusually all are manufactured and tested in the States, there are great you tube videos of their manufacturing plant.
If you have the time I’d recommend the you tube interview with the CEO and COO of the company, very informative, also clarifies that their BMS does not allow charging at low temperatures, which was one of my own worries, also some good advice on warming blankets and pads!!
Think you’ve bought a great product and hope your having a fabulous sunny bank holiday.
Bill

 

[tonyidle]

Electromagnetic radiation is covered by FCC

The Federal Communications Commission? Their regulations apply only to the US.

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