SOMEONE HAS TO GO FIRST - Motorbike and trailer choice

Forgot to add, the actual towbar supplied by Witter to the approved fitters looked very basic and to be honest I could of fitted the actual bar as it was only 4 bolts each end. NO drilling as all holes already there on the frame, definitely not worth £795 for being type approved. The electrics is a different matter as that took a long time for them to wire in but dont have an issue with that.
 
As promised here are some pics of where my towbar bent after using the Hydratrail to drive a couple hundred yards, no curbs/pot holes etc. I am assuming it is because of how long the Delaware is and the force it uses when turning a corner with the wide swing (even with the dolly wheels as in theory there should not be a lot). Of course there is not a lot to stop the actual bar from bending in the first place.
 

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Wow, I was expecting to see something that looked weak and insubstantial. The bar they fitted is certainly not what I would call a weak or poor design. The forces required to bend those plates must have been very high as they are a similar size to my discovery tow bar which is rated at 3.5t.
I certainly think there is a serious issue if you have had to have it strengthened.
Out of interest, what capacity is the tow bar plated at?
 
The MH is plated to tow up to 1.25t with the type approved towbar, the owner / maker of the hydratrail explained to me why it bent. Now this could of been to divert my attention from the fact the hydratrail does not work as it does others with my motorhome. Either way it should not now bend but the hassle i have gone through to get to this point, i would not go through again given what i know now.
 
On those figures the tow bar (which is type approved) has a safe margin of over 3 times the Hydratrail capacity plus its tare weight.
Please would you state what Mr Hydratrail said caused the damage to the tow bar as it looks to me as what would be called a catastrophic failure as the stem is bent almost 45 degrees from its design.
Flat plate of such sizes having a slight curve would be worrying but they look like a truck has driven into them.
I do wonder what Witter would have so say about the need to have it strengthened after all the testing and r&ad they have done to ensure it is fit for purpose and safe to use.

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Derbyshire wanderer said:
On those figures the tow bar (which is type approved) has a safe margin of over 3 times the Hydratrail capacity plus its tare weight.
Please would you state what Mr Hydratrail said caused the damage to the tow bar as it looks to me as what would be called a catastrophic failure as the stem is bent almost 45 degrees from its design.
Flat plate of such sizes having a slight curve would be worrying but they look like a truck has driven into them.
I do wonder what Witter would have so say about the need to have it strengthened after all the testing and r&ad they have done to ensure it is fit for purpose and safe to use.
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For normal towing i could not agree more, but the way the Hydratrail works is not normal towing and it appears the Delaware does not work well with it. I watched the owner of the Hydratrail make up a bar, he slotted it into the bracket on the back of the motorhome and bent it back just by pulling on it. To me that and i am by no means and expert proves just how weak these things are, he explained that there was not support on either side of the mount just 2 flanges that come out approx 10mm thick. This is why he said it bent, like i said he may of been trying to divert my anger as i was not happy at having a brand new towbar which has been working fine for months towing the normal conventional way suddenly bend as soon as i attach the Hydratrail to it and put a scooter on it. I drove it to Manchester with no scooter on and it was ok, put a scooter on it (193kg) and go a couple hundred yards and it bends. Good job i have a back camera that I can put on all the time else i would not seen it straight away.

The actual towbar does not need strengthening for normal towing, so witter would not need to do anything to make this work the way it should. That said the overhang on the Delaware is quite substantial which I am assuming plays a part in all this with more pressure being put on the sideways movement when turning. ( i appreciate this is not supposed to happen given the dolly wheels on the Hydratrail, but there really is no other explanation other than faulty towbar twice which is highly unlikely, or Delaware not designed to work with Hydratrail without being strengthened).
 
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TheTwoOfUs said:
Can I ask, are those arms that were deformed solid or box section?
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Sorry not sure what you mean, there is a long solid bar going across the back of the motorhome which attaches directly to the alko chassis, in the middle of this are 2 10mm thick flanges (Y shaped that are welded onto the solid bar) this is what has actually bent with virtually no pressure at all.

Witter did swap out the first one but i certainly would not try that again knowing it was the fault of the Hydratrail.
 
zzzzac said:
For normal towing i could not agree more, but the way the Hydratrail works is not normal towing and it appears the Delaware does not work well with it. I watched the owner of the Hydratrail make up a bar, he slotted it into the bracket on the back of the motorhome and bent it back just by pulling on it. To me that and i am by no means and expert proves just how weak these things are, he explained that there was not support on either side of the mount just 2 flanges that come out approx 10mm thick. This is why he said it bent, like i said he may of been trying to divert my anger as i was not happy at having a brand new towbar which has been working fine for months towing the normal conventional way suddenly bend as soon as i attach the Hydratrail to it and put a scooter on it. I drove it to Manchester with no scooter on and it was ok, put a scooter on it (193kg) and go a couple hundred yards and it bends. Good job i have a back camera that I can put on all the time else i would not seen it straight away.

The actual towbar does not need strengthening for normal towing, so witter would not need to do anything to make this work the way it should. That said the overhang on the Delaware is quite substantial which I am assuming plays a part in all this with more pressure being put on the sideways movement when turning. ( i appreciate this is not supposed to happen given the dolly wheels on the Hydratrail, but there really is no other explanation other than faulty towbar twice which is highly unlikely, or Delaware not designed to work with Hydratrail without being strengthened).
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I have assumed that when you say the Delaware does not work well with it, it is because of the long overhang behind the axle. Long overhangs are very common on motorhomes, so if this is the problem, there are a lot of users that could have this happen.
Speaking as an engineer, any tow bar that needs strengthening is either
A) Poorly designed and therefore not fit for purpose and possibly dangerous. (I believe Witter fully test their kit to meet all requirements to ensure both safety and not damage the tow vehicle).
B) Being used for a purpose that it was not designed for.
I would be very interested to see what testing Hydratrail have done to establish the loading screen transmitted to the mounting plate (I.e. Tow bar is a part of this).
You said he pulled it back easily with a bar? A long bar would make this easy especially as the metal is now distorted I.e. Weakened.
Of a similar recent debate about towing, the A frame thread recently running (ignore the legal arguments) has attracted lots of comments about the fixings and safety after a Ford Ka almost detached. Loads of comments about possible failure but no one has found damage to either the frames or towbars. Only the tin work of the vehicles have shown failures.
As the Hydratrail is effectively an extension to the vehicle ( not a trailer), the problem you have had TWICE is really worrying.
 
Derbyshire wanderer said:
I have assumed that when you say the Delaware does not work well with it, it is because of the long overhang behind the axle. Long overhangs are very common on motorhomes, so if this is the problem, there are a lot of users that could have this happen.
Speaking as an engineer, any tow bar that needs strengthening is either
A) Poorly designed and therefore not fit for purpose and possibly dangerous. (I believe Witter fully test their kit to meet all requirements to ensure both safety and not damage the tow vehicle).
B) Being used for a purpose that it was not designed for.
I would be very interested to see what testing Hydratrail have done to establish the loading screen transmitted to the mounting plate (I.e. Tow bar is a part of this).
You said he pulled it back easily with a bar? A long bar would make this easy especially as the metal is now distorted I.e. Weakened.
Of a similar recent debate about towing, the A frame thread recently running (ignore the legal arguments) has attracted lots of comments about the fixings and safety after a Ford Ka almost detached. Loads of comments about possible failure but no one has found damage to either the frames or towbars. Only the tin work of the vehicles have shown failures.
As the Hydratrail is effectively an extension to the vehicle ( not a trailer), the problem you have had TWICE is really worrying.
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Absolutely, it would be good to hear from any other Delaware owners although as i said this was the first one he had sold for our type of van. The van is plated at 4.5t and able to tow 1.25t. I would not go through this again though, i have invested quite a lot in the Hydratrail with extra parts so I will push on with it but this is now not by choice, as i would lose quite a lot if i now sold the HT.

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zzzzac said:
Sorry not sure what you mean, there is a long solid bar going across the back of the motorhome which attaches directly to the alko chassis, in the middle of this are 2 10mm thick flanges (Y shaped that are welded onto the solid bar) this is what has actually bent with virtually no pressure at all.

Witter did swap out the first one but i certainly would not try that again knowing it was the fault of the Hydratrail.
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I was referring to the 2 x 10mm bars. How far then does the actual tow bracket (swan neck, flange or whatever) extend rearward beyond the two plates? Obviously something bolts between those 10mm plates.
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
I was referring to the 2 x 10mm bars. How far then does the actual tow bracket (swan neck, flange or whatever) extend rearward beyond the two plates? Obviously something bolts between those 10mm plates.
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If you look at one of the pictures you will be able to just about see the bolts that hold the bracket in place that goes between these 2 plates. I dont have the exact measurements but it is not that long as the bolts are about 4-5 inches apart each side. I will see if i have a picture looking down with all fitted. it does come out a bit at the back which may be playing a part in all this as i am assuming the longer it is the more likely it is to bend as more pressure.

In fact the first pic which shows a top down view gives you an idea on how far it comes out, the bit that it bolts into is literally just out of view on the pic.
 
Yes, it's the bit that bolts into it that I was interested in. The longer that is, the greater the leverage being applied as a bending force. I have no doubt that Witter will have done comprehensive testing, as a towbar. However hen it is used in conjunction with the Hydratrail it is being used as an extension to the base vehicle chassis, which is not what it was designed for. I am following this with particular interest because I have a Hydratrail on order.
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
Yes, it's the bit that bolts into it that I was interested in. The longer that is, the greater the leverage being applied as a bending force. I have no doubt that Witter will have done comprehensive testing, as a towbar. However hen it is used in conjunction with the Hydratrail it is being used as an extension to the base vehicle chassis, which is not what it was designed for. I am following this with particular interest because I have a Hydratrail on order.
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I have looked all over the internet and i cannot find anyone else with the same issue as myself, not even remotely similar. The way the HT is explained there should be virtually no pressure when turning given the wheels move 360degrees but there must be as turning right then left bent mine. The extra 2 plates that have been welded on will ensure no more bending but if i was buying one now i would definitely want a camera at the back always on as i caught mine as soon as it happened. I dread to think what might of happened once i got on the motorway with it bent like that. It was approx 2cm's from the back of the motorhome when it bent, anymore and there would of been a nice hole in the back of a 70k brand new van.

The HT is a solid product and i do like it but i think there are areas that need special attention and thought as one solution does not fit all.

What MH do you have?
 
We have a Frankia with a relatively short overhang and a short tow bar.

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TheTwoOfUs said:
We have a Frankia with a relatively short overhang and a short tow bar.
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Sound as though yours will be ok, has he fitted one to this model before as if not he will need to take the measurements from yours to make the attachment.
 
It will be attached via the two bolts on the detachable Witter tow bar. I'm just contemplating strengthening the tow bar before I use it.
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
It will be attached via the two bolts on the detachable Witter tow bar. I'm just contemplating strengthening the tow bar before I use it.
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Does your towbar look the same as ours with thh Y shape plates? if so I would think about getting it strengthened when you pick it up, it will need to come off the MH to do this but ours was only bolted with 4 bolts each end. The actual detachable part was held in place with another 4 small bolts. 2 bolts holding the plate in sounds a bit too few for something so important.
 
What a sorry tale and terrible worry when you have invested so much, I took the cowards way out when I got a bigger scooter and got a Ivor Williams single axle box trailer with a combined ramp/doors, payload about 950k so i can put all the usual stuff in as well, being single axle I can move it on site pretty easily, expensive yes but as I found when I sold my previous Conway trailer if its kept in good order depreciation is minimal in fact I lost less that £200 on the Conway having used it a lot for nearly 3 years
 
Merc0385 said:
What a sorry tale and terrible worry when you have invested so much, I took the cowards way out when I got a bigger scooter and got a Ivor Williams single axle box trailer with a combined ramp/doors, payload about 950k so i can put all the usual stuff in as well, being single axle I can move it on site pretty easily, expensive yes but as I found when I sold my previous Conway trailer if its kept in good order depreciation is minimal in fact I lost less that £200 on the Conway having used it a lot for nearly 3 years
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I dont think that is the cowards way :) , i think that is very wise as i would not go the same way again given the choices and what i know now...

Wise choice i think....

Out of interest what was the cost of your latest trailer? any links?

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NEW TRAILER.jpg
zzzzac said:
I dont think that is the cowards way :) , i think that is very wise as i would not go the same way again given the choices and what i know now...

Wise choice i think....

I wanted to be sure this one gave me all I wanted and not to have to change again, Its a Ifor Williams BV85 with a combined ramp & doors, cost about £3k but its pretty brilliant !! gross weight is 1.4t and payload just under a 1t, I put some tie downs in, a bike stand at the front and a small piece of alloy channel in the rear to accomodate the rear wheel, we go to dog shows a lot so we also get in the awing room, dog food, garden fencing ect.
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You will probably think I'm crackers but I already have a very nice Excalibur trailer which I take my GoldWing in (see my avatar). However we have decided to try taking an MP3 scooter on a Hydratrail because at 6.5 + 5.5 metres long it is a fairly long rig and it can be a bit tight in some places abroad. And before anyone asks, no I'm not selling the Excalibur. ;)
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
You will probably think I'm crackers but I already have a very nice Excalibur trailer which I take my GoldWing in (see my avatar). However we have decided to try taking an MP3 scooter on a Hydratrail because at 6.5 + 5.5 metres long it is a fairly long rig and it can be a bit tight in some places abroad. And before anyone asks, no I'm not selling the Excalibur. ;)
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We were looking at getting a Harley Davidson similar to the Gold Wing, is the excalibur a box trailer or open as been looking at trying to find something to take the harley but would prefer a boxed one as less likely to pinch it if they cant see it.

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It's a purpose made fibreglass trailer with a drop down rear door and a rising roof. Their website is excalibureurope.com
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
It's a purpose made fibreglass trailer with a drop down rear door and a rising roof. Their website is excalibureurope.com
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That looks very nice from their website and perfect for what i would want although not seen price yet..... thanks
 
been riding bikes since 9 year old so when we got our first m/home in 2013 the first thing i looked into was trailer or rack. Chose rack as we only wanted a small scooter and it only added 0.6mt to overall leanth and no problems reversing any distance or direction. Towed a trailer at work for years so talking from experience and lost count how many times had to unhook in tight places to turn round. Now looking for trailer for my Harley but will only go for a rear loader as the longer the trailer the easier the reversing. Also Harley is longer than m/home is wide.
 
Has anyone got the Sawiko scooter rack designed to bolt onto the Alko chassis?
If so any good ?

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