simple wiring diagram advice.

[mitzimad]

as terry said is it worth it for the time you keep a van?

 

[funflair]

Yes I'm well aware of that but that's not what i want to achieve...

My main thinking is using them stupid womens items such as hair dryers and straighten things and the microwaves via my inverter on a when it's gone its gone scenario

So what you are saying is "oh sorry Nikki we have no power for your hair dryer/girly toys" you are in deep doo doo when she rumbles you.

Martin

 

[mitzimad]

One big problem, any diode loses about 0.7V and you don't want this ( can be worked around but always some loss ).

Bigger problem, like hot/cold mixer taps, the two batteries must not mix, one needs a hot feet the other needs a cold feed.

hot and cold in my mind equates to live and earth with diode i would think that stopped the mix?

 

[funflair]

Im not sure gel batteries are the best choice for high discharge rates... ie your inverter.. just another consideration when deciding on what to settle with..
Andy.

From my experience they are OK Andy, only been using/abusing them for 7 years yet so the jury is still out

Martin

 

[canopus]

So what you are saying is "oh sorry Nikki we have no power for your hair dryer/girly toys" you are in deep doo doo when she rumbles you.

Martin

girly toys - wonder what Niki will say about that Martin?

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[andy63]

From my experience they are OK Andy, only been using/abusing them for 7 years yet so the jury is still out

Martin

Ahh but you dont say how many gels you have sharing the load.. are you managing to keep the draw from each battery down to close to the normal 20hr rate..
I am impressed mind...
7 years
I fitted two gels two and a half years ago and was getting a bit concerned about their remaining capacity just the other week.. watching them closely atm..
Andy.

 

[haganap]

We have two banks of hab batteries for this very reason
The first bank is the factory fitted one, its charged by the split charger when driving and the factory fitted charger.

Our second battery bank comprises on two Lithium batteries, charged by a B2B charger, 600w of solar and an inverter/charger. The only thing connected to this bank is the inverter

I’ve linked the two banks with a Sterling 3A battery master which goes some way to share the solar from the Lithium batteries.

The reason for this set up is to prevent the inverter discharging the main battery bank.

Jeez thanks @Robert Clark ... finally someone that doesn't question why I am doing it but tells me what I need to know. If you would have just added a simple diagram to that the answer would be perfect.

I've loved my time on fun over all these years. Whenever you ask a question you get a hundred answers telling you, you don't want to do that!!! or No that won't work when you've been doing it for a 100 years... gotta love fun...

I think I am going for the old fashioned statement of KISS
I will rig one B2B to two Banners then add it to the Inverter... Nikki will be happy, I will get Porridge in the morning via the Microwave.
Bank two will be a standard system as if nothing had been touched with 345 amps of Gel Batteries, with the correct Gel charging system switched on.
Solar panel will be split to support bank 1 and bank 2, never believed in Solar much anyway.....

right now then. off to find my screwdriver. I will keep you all updated how good this is going to be but if anyone sees Nikki walking around wiht frizzy hair complaining she has no hairdryer whilst I am sat there watching the football on the TV with all the lights on, don't tell her why this is.

 

[eddie]

Jeez thanks @Robert Clark ... finally someone that doesn't question why I am doing it but tells me what I need to know. If you would have just added a simple diagram to that the answer would be perfect.

I've loved my time on fun over all these years. Whenever you ask a question you get a hundred answers telling you, you don't want to do that!!! or No that won't work when you've been doing it for a 100 years... gotta love fun...

I think I am going for the old fashioned statement of KISS
I will rig one B2B to two Banners then add it to the Inverter... Nikki will be happy, I will get Porridge in the morning via the Microwave.
Bank two will be a standard system as if nothing had been touched with 345 amps of Gel Batteries, with the correct Gel charging system switched on.
Solar panel will be split to support bank 1 and bank 2, never believed in Solar much anyway.....

right now then. off to find my screwdriver. I will keep you all updated how good this is going to be but if anyone sees Nikki walking around wiht frizzy hair complaining she has no hairdryer whilst I am sat there watching the football on the TV with all the lights on, don't tell her why this is.

Well if you'd given us all this much information to start with....................

Just buy one of these:- Eighty Quid - Job done

 

[haganap]

Well if you'd given us all this much information to start with....................

Just buy one of these:- Eighty Quid - Job done



View attachment 280595

would that not split the charge though and then give an issue between the Gel and the Banners?

just to expand, my charging system and the B2B both have a setting for Gel

 

[eddie]

would that not split the charge though and then give an issue between the Gel and the Banners?

just to expand, my charging system and the B2B both have a setting for Gel

Actually my post was a bit of a giggle but, in the real world, with the distance between the GEL batteries and the Alternator measured in metres, and motorhome converters refusing to use adequate cable, the chances of getting anything like the correct charge at the leisure battery terminals is remote, bordering on impossible.

We get involved with long winded discussions about the importance of solar regulators and the correct setting between acid and AGM, and the worry it causes people. Then they drive off with their bog standard Fiat alternator, charging their bog standard Lead Acid battery, in parallel, via a common or garden automotive relay (Call it a split charge relay to sound better!) with their expensive AGM batteries!

Even today very few motorhomes have anything like the correct on road charging. Want to check? Look at the thickness of the cable connecting your alternator to your engine battery, now questimate the distance between your engine battery and your alternator. If you leisure batteries are the same distance, then your charging cable should be the same thickness as the engine to alternator.

As the leisure batteries will not be that close the cable diameter should be thicker, and the further away the battery, the thicker the cable should be, and the more leisure batteries there are? the thicker the cable should be!

25mm2 cable is the minimum that should be used and most leisure batteries are connected up with a bit of wire the diameter of a boot lace! The clue is the 20amp fuse in the system with most inadequate systems

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[OldAgeTravellers]

Jeez thanks @Robert Clark ... I think I am going for the old fashioned statement of KISS
I will rig one B2B to two Banners then add it to the Inverter... Nikki will be happy, I will get Porridge in the morning via the Microwave.
Bank two will be a standard system as if nothing had been touched with 345 amps of Gel Batteries, with the correct Gel charging system switched on.
Solar panel will be split to support bank 1 and bank 2, never believed in Solar much anyway.....

Just a question really, won't the two systems fight? The B2B wants to push the voltage up to increase the current, but the standard system will try to drag it down. Never had a B2B as an EBL101 I understand doesn't like them. But don't want to start that fight again here.
Will be interested to hear how it works out for you.
I just say "I far prefer your hair short darling" so no hair dryer and a saucepan works for porridge.
Steve

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

Sorry duplicate post, must be Joms system update tonight!

 

[funflair]

Ahh but you dont say how many gels you have sharing the load.. are you managing to keep the draw from each battery down to close to the normal 20hr rate..
I am impressed mind...
7 years
I fitted two gels two and a half years ago and was getting a bit concerned about their remaining capacity just the other week.. watching them closely atm..
Andy.

More like 2hr Andy, and we had 2 80ah for a few years on their own and then buddied them up with 2 more, breaking all the rules on matching age etc, must be my rebellious streak.

Martin

 

[haganap]

Just a question really, won't the two systems fight? The B2B wants to push the voltage up to increase the current, but the standard system will try to drag it down. Never had a B2B as an EBL101 I understand doesn't like them. But don't want to start that fight again here.
Will be interested to hear how it works out for you.
I just say "I far prefer your hair short darling" so no hair dryer and a saucepan works for porridge.
Steve

no they will be completely unrelated systems

I have done a diagram although I couldn't get eddies thin wires...

 

[G2EWS]

This could be a dangerous solution if you are not careful.

If you made a mistake and ended up charging both sets of batteries together, you will have the 'good' batteries, charging the 'weaker' batteries. This will and often does generate heat.

When you have seen a battery - normal lead acid - explode you will be more mindful of what you do in circumstances like this.

I have experienced this and was recently at the Fiat dealership near to Wincanton. The lady behind the service desk agreed and explained that it happened to her and her husband when on the move in their motorhome. They bought a new battery and connected it to the old one and boom. Took a lot of cleaning up!

Best regards


Chris

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[tonysuvla]

As a Newbie I’m not up with all the jargon so what’s b2b please?

Tony

 

[Two on Tour]

As a Newbie I’m not up with all the jargon so what’s b2b please?

Tony

Battery to Battery charger

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/battery-to-battery-chargers.html

 

[Robert Clark]

The batteries should be separated from each other

 

[haganap]

The batteries should be separated from each other

They are different circuits. One taken care of by the B2B one by the On board charger. I have also fitted a https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Durite-0-6...itch-310a/14024884555?iid=400688728516&chn=ps

so in the highly unlikey event that the 330 amps of Gel batteries get wasted I can switch to the other bank to take over.

 

[haganap]

This could be a dangerous solution if you are not careful.

If you made a mistake and ended up charging both sets of batteries together, you will have the 'good' batteries, charging the 'weaker' batteries. This will and often does generate heat.

When you have seen a battery - normal lead acid - explode you will be more mindful of what you do in circumstances like this.

I have experienced this and was recently at the Fiat dealership near to Wincanton. The lady behind the service desk agreed and explained that it happened to her and her husband when on the move in their motorhome. They bought a new battery and connected it to the old one and boom. Took a lot of cleaning up!

Best regards


Chris

Sorry Chris I do not buy this at all.

you are suggesting that anyone who adds a second battery to their existing bank and doesn't have two batteries of the same age/ condition is running the risk of explosion. I think this would be a highly normal thing the amount of people who simply add second batteries to their bank. We all know that ideally you would want to add the same age condition etc but loads dont.

or am I misreading your post.

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[autorouter]

Since no-one else has come up with a diagram, here's one that's a modified version of what I am using. It started off simple, honest, but it 'just growed'.

I'm thinking your Banners are Bank 2 and the Victron Gels are Bank 1. I think you will need some switches, something like this.

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/marine-battery-isolator-switch-2-positions.html
First, a fuse and 2-way switch for the Banners to switch the inverter on and off. Choose a current rating for Switch 1 to suit the inverter power. 100, 200 or 300 amps are available, 200A is enough for most inverters (up to 2400 watts). I'd suggest a Megafuse, maybe 200A.

Second, some 2-way switches between three charging sources (B2B, Solar controller and EBL) and the Victron Gels and the Banners. Switch 2 switches the EBL and habitation circuits between the Victron Gels and the Banners.

You can add an extra mains charger to the Banners while on hookup. You can leave all the chargers connected all the time, they will not interfere with each other.

One slight problem I can foresee is, when you switch the habitation circuits from Gels to Banners, and also from Banners to Gels. The switch is a 'make-before break', which means there is a very short break in the supply to the habitation circuits as you switch over. The frost protection dump valve might activate, and dump the water, so you'll have to be ready to reset the switch if it's the type that activates.

 

[haganap]

Thanks for that @autorouter probably a bit more complex than what I have done but who knows it might grow to that...

I have that very switch you mention...

here is what I propose to do, can you see any issues with it?

firstly its simplicity. One bank of batteries charging when the engine is running via the B2B. This will then be used for inverter only, for things like hair dryer and occassional microwave use.
The other bank of batteries, bank 1 is simply for normal useage and has 330 amps plumbed in to it.
I have the isolater switch position set so that if on some bad bad day I dump the 330 amps of power i can switch to second battery bank temporarily.

I missed the solar off the diagram but basically that's plumbed in to the battery bank 1 anyhow.

 

[autorouter]

Your diagram is not very clear on this, but it looks like you have a Megafuse in the BLACK wire from the isolator switch to Battery bank 2.

It is usual to have positive wires red, negative wires black, and if that's what you are using then this means the megafuse is in the negative wire, which is a VERY BAD IDEA. Fuses should ALWAYS be in the positive wires.

Each battery bank should have a fuse and an isolator switch in the positive wire close to the battery bank. I didn't put all those in on my diagram because they are just understood to be there. Here's a modified diagram with all the fuses and switches added.

Switch 2 is a 3-terminal changeover switch, and switches 1 and 2 are simple on/off switches. Switch 1 is like the marine isolator switch, but it's the on/off single battery version for isolating the inverter.

 

[haganap]

Your diagram is not very clear on this, but it looks like you have a Megafuse in the BLACK wire from the isolator switch to Battery bank 2.

It is usual to have positive wires red, negative wires black, and if that's what you are using then this means the megafuse is in the negative wire, which is a VERY BAD IDEA. Fuses should ALWAYS be in the positive wires.

Each battery bank should have a fuse and an isolator switch in the positive wire close to the battery bank. I didn't put all those in on my diagram because they are just understood to be there. Here's a modified diagram with all the fuses and switches added.
View attachment 281776
Switch 2 is a 3-terminal changeover switch, and switches 1 and 2 are simple on/off switches. Switch 1 is like the marine isolator switch, but it's the on/off single battery version for isolating the inverter.

Hi thanks again for that. Yes, each battery bank has a fuse between the parallel battery, as said I just took that for granted.
The odd thing with the mega fuse in the negative terminal is that this was installed by the manufacturer and not my self? I did think it was a bit odd and although it does look like a mega fuse, it could actually be a Shunt of the likes I have not seen before. I will take a pic and post it up.

Regarding my diagram though does it look ok? the only concern I had is everything shares the earth but I imagine that is acceptable as all common. I also could improve further by adding another fuse between the marine switch over and the battery banks.
I will also try and do a better diagram when completed.

 

[funflair]

Thanks for that @autorouter probably a bit more complex than what I have done but who knows it might grow to that...

I have that very switch you mention...

here is what I propose to do, can you see any issues with it?

firstly its simplicity. One bank of batteries charging when the engine is running via the B2B. This will then be used for inverter only, for things like hair dryer and occassional microwave use.
The other bank of batteries, bank 1 is simply for normal useage and has 330 amps plumbed in to it.
I have the isolater switch position set so that if on some bad bad day I dump the 330 amps of power i can switch to second battery bank temporarily.

I missed the solar off the diagram but basically that's plumbed in to the battery bank 1 anyhow. View attachment 281771

Hi Paul

I think I understand what you want to achieve and certainly not qualified to supply the drawing but that won't stop me interfering

1/ I understand that you want to switch your habitation supply from bank1 to bank2 if required BUT isn't the switch shown simply an isolator on/off ?

2/ If required you want to switch bank2 to supply the habitation needs BUT doesn't this mean that you will be hitting the bank1 Victron gels with a massive charge while the voltage's equalise, I dont know if they would like this or not but my choice for a "get out of jail" solution would be to run the inverter on bank2 and replenish bank1 to some degree of usability with a AC/DC battery charger.

3/ And finally if that "thing" is a shunt you will need to be careful which side of it you connect any -ve cables depending what you want it to report.

Martin

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[haganap]

Hi Paul

I think I understand what you want to achieve and certainly not qualified to supply the drawing but that won't stop me interfering

1/ I understand that you want to switch your habitation supply from bank1 to bank2 if required BUT isn't the switch shown simply an isolator on/off ?

2/ If required you want to switch bank2 to supply the habitation needs BUT doesn't this mean that you will be hitting the bank1 Victron gels with a massive charge while the voltage's equalise, I dont know if they would like this or not but my choice for a "get out of jail" solution would be to run the inverter on bank2 and replenish bank1 to some degree of usability with a AC/DC battery charger.

3/ And finally if that "thing" is a shunt you will need to be careful which side of it you connect any -ve cables depending what you want it to report.

Martin

No problem for interfering, it does make me make sure I take everything in to consideration so here goes.

1) No its an isolator and a switch to switch between the two banks or both banks together. Therefore the switch will allow either or or both to feed the system. Obviously bank 1 would be the normal feed as this is the standard set up. But, when required in an emergency this could be switched to bank 2 to run the van. Normally bank 2 would be just available for the inverter fed directly by the B2B.

2) No the isolator prevents this from happening by separating the two, I could do this if I wanted by selecting both banks, however, this would be foolish as both batteries are different.

3) yes, A shunt merely is a measuring tool, and both sides are fed from the same side, if indeed it is a shunt and not a mega fuse.

here is the isolater switch over switch. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-24V-...8:g:9Z8AAOSw0vBUibN2:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

 

[autorouter]

The odd thing with the mega fuse in the negative terminal is that this was installed by the manufacturer and not my self? I did think it was a bit odd and although it does look like a mega fuse, it could actually be a Shunt of the likes I have not seen before.

Yes that makes a lot more sense. If it's a shunt it will have some thin wires going to it, as well as the two main terminals. Or maybe something that looks like a network plug. The idea is that all the currents you want to measure are channelled through one of the main terminals, and the other terminal is connected to the battery negative terminal. The other thin wires are used for measurement, and go to the unit that does all the measurements and calculations.

 

[funflair]

No problem for interfering, it does make me make sure I take everything in to consideration so here goes.

1) No its an isolator and a switch to switch between the two banks or both banks together. Therefore the switch will allow either or or both to feed the system. Obviously bank 1 would be the normal feed as this is the standard set up. But, when required in an emergency this could be switched to bank 2 to run the van. Normally bank 2 would be just available for the inverter fed directly by the B2B.

2) No the isolator prevents this from happening by separating the two, I could do this if I wanted by selecting both banks, however, this would be foolish as both batteries are different.

3) yes, A shunt merely is a measuring tool, and both sides are fed from the same side, if indeed it is a shunt and not a mega fuse.

here is the isolater switch over switch. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-24V-...8:g:9Z8AAOSw0vBUibN2:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

Hi Paul

OK different switch so I get that one now, I don't know where your switch goes in relation to the take +ve off for the CBE/van electric system but as long as you are aware it should be OK

Martin

 

[autorouter]

) No the isolator prevents this from happening by separating the two, I could do this if I wanted by selecting both banks, however, this would be foolish as both batteries are different.

No it's not foolish to connect them both when discharging them. I do this for running the fridge on 12V on the 24 hour Santander ferry. Gas must be turned off, of course. It's only when charging that you need to separate them, and even then it's OK for the first half of the charge cycle.

 

[haganap]

No it's not foolish to connect them both when discharging them. I do this for running the fridge on 12V on the 24 hour Santander ferry. Gas must be turned off, of course. It's only when charging that you need to separate them, and even then it's OK for the first half of the charge cycle.

yes i did mean for charging. ie bank of gels and a bank of banners

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