Scottish stay at home order ends Friday 2nd April

[fat haggis]

Well post it here for us all to see I’ll eat my words if I’m proven to be wrong. I have never said anybody is a liar I only ask for clarity. You can’t post on a motorhome forums saying it’s ok for people in Scotland to overnight without proof. The proof is the email. Post it here. Give people something to back them up if they are pulled by police they can show the proof to them and once again I have not called anybody a liar all I was asking for was proof not just for me but for all of us.

 

[Jim]

Well post it here for us all to see I’ll eat my words if I’m proven to be wrong.

I can confirm the email that Sandra got a very positive response from, was about staying overnight in a local area.

 

[fat haggis]

Ok how can other members here give proof to the police if stoped by them to get out of trouble

 

[deleted79651]

I've been digging around, trying to find something definitive in the COVID Guidance for Scotland; and have failed miserably! Putting 2+2 together [and accepting that that may produce an answer of 3, 4 or 5], there may be a loophole or omission in the latest Guidance.

First Minister's ['FM'] Statement on 26th March set out the proposed timetable for easing lockdown and the only specific mention of self catering tourism, including campsites and caravan sites, is in the 26th April proposed re-opening date. Before that, you can travel within your local authority ['LA'] area etc. Imagine a Civil Servant, who wouldn't recognise a motorhome's accommodation potential if he tripped over one drafting the Guidance update. 'Travel within LA ok, covers day trips for fresh air etc; no holidays until next check date of 26th April when campsites and caravan sites can reopen and people can take their caravans, tents and motorhomes for holidays again; ok'

It would appear that nobody thought that motorhomers would want to wild camp, hence the anomaly. Interestingly, the Guidance permits people to travel to 2nd homes to 'prepare them for letting, including maintenance, but this must be used as an excuse to take a holiday'. A property owner would be able to stay in seclusion within the boundaries of the property and even nip down to B&Q [other DIY stores are available] to buy a pot of paint to redecorate the property, but not to stay a few days extra for a wee break ...

If that is the case, then the spirit and intention of the Guidance would need to be examined, if the Police wish to investigate, which is probably unlikely. From a legal perspective, it becomes a test of reasonableness [as defined by Lord Chief Justice Denning's 'What the man on the top deck of the Clapham Omnibus thinks is reasonable']. Is it reasonable to forbid a 2nd home owner to stay for a couple of days in his/her own home to recover from painting, but to allow a m/home owner to have a wee holiday for the same period, when the Guidance foresees a return to self catering holidays on campsites as not permitted until 26th April?

Police would probably feel that they have better things to do than get into a circular argument; but they may feel willing to do the 'Engage, Explain, Enforce' routine and issue a ticket, if they were having a bad day, or even arrest you for failing to clear off when asked to do so. It's a hole in the Guidance that can be argued either way, and that's why lawyers can afford the best and most expensive motorhomes

For clarity, I have been playing devil's advocate in this post. I don't yet have a motorhome so Elaine and I won't have the opportunity to test the questions and issues raised!

Steve

 

[Jim]

Ok how can other members here give proof to the police if stoped by them to get out of trouble

The law is very rarely clean cut and almost always open to interpretation, hence why lawyers are so rich. I suppose you could write to your Scottish MP and see what he/she says

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[fat haggis]

An apology to irnbru
I’m sorry if you thought I was calling you a liar about the staying overnight in Scotland I didn’t intend to offend you I was only asking for clarity. Please accept my sincere. Apologies on this matter. I will also post it on the thread publicly for all to see.

Sam (fat haggis)

and for the benafint of all members here how would you suggest we cover ourselves if stoped by the police.

 

[Potty]

I've been digging around, trying to find something definitive in the COVID Guidance for Scotland; and have failed miserably! Putting 2+2 together [and accepting that that may produce an answer of 3, 4 or 5], there may be a loophole or omission in the latest Guidance.

First Minister's ['FM'] Statement on 26th March set out the proposed timetable for easing lockdown and the only specific mention of self catering tourism, including campsites and caravan sites, is in the 26th April proposed re-opening date. Before that, you can travel within your local authority ['LA'] area etc. Imagine a Civil Servant, who wouldn't recognise a motorhome's accommodation potential if he tripped over one drafting the Guidance update. 'Travel within LA ok, covers day trips for fresh air etc; no holidays until next check date of 26th April when campsites and caravan sites can reopen and people can take their caravans, tents and motorhomes for holidays again; ok'

It would appear that nobody thought that motorhomers would want to wild camp, hence the anomaly. Interestingly, the Guidance permits people to travel to 2nd homes to 'prepare them for letting, including maintenance, but this must be used as an excuse to take a holiday'. A property owner would be able to stay in seclusion within the boundaries of the property and even nip down to B&Q [other DIY stores are available] to buy a pot of paint to redecorate the property, but not to stay a few days extra for a wee break ...

If that is the case, then the spirit and intention of the Guidance would need to be examined, if the Police wish to investigate, which is probably unlikely. From a legal perspective, it becomes a test of reasonableness [as defined by Lord Chief Justice Denning's 'What the man on the top deck of the Clapham Omnibus thinks is reasonable']. Is it reasonable to forbid a 2nd home owner to stay for a couple of days in his/her own home to recover from painting, but to allow a m/home owner to have a wee holiday for the same period, when the Guidance foresees a return to self catering holidays on campsites as not permitted until 26th April?

Police would probably feel that they have better things to do than get into a circular argument; but they may feel willing to do the 'Engage, Explain, Enforce' routine and issue a ticket, if they were having a bad day, or even arrest you for failing to clear off when asked to do so. It's a hole in the Guidance that can be argued either way, and that's why lawyers can afford the best and most expensive motorhomes

For clarity, I have been playing devil's advocate in this post. I don't yet have a motorhome so Elaine and I won't have the opportunity to test the questions and issues raised!

Steve

I have done the same and cannot find anything staying it is not allowed. The English restrictions are very clear, you can travel but must return home.
Several people, both here and in other places, say it is forbidden in Scotland but when asked for chapter and verse they do not reply.
Waiting to see if I get a reply from Jason Leitch.

 

[Potty]

The law is very rarely clean cut and almost always open to interpretation, hence why lawyers are so rich. I suppose you could write to your Scottish MP and see what he/she says

They are all too busy travelling all around the country electioneering!

 

[irnbru]

An apology to irnbru
I’m sorry if you thought I was calling you a liar about the staying overnight in Scotland I didn’t intend to offend you I was only asking for clarity. Please accept my sincere. Apologies on this matter. I will also post it on the thread publicly for all to see.

Sam (fat haggis)

and for the benafint of all members here how would you suggest we cover ourselves if stoped by the police.

Thanks for the apology, yes I do feel you were calling me a liar. The reply email should be enough.

 

[Potty]

An apology to irnbru
I’m sorry if you thought I was calling you a liar about the staying overnight in Scotland I didn’t intend to offend you I was only asking for clarity. Please accept my sincere. Apologies on this matter. I will also post it on the thread publicly for all to see.

Sam (fat haggis)

and for the benafint of all members here how would you suggest we cover ourselves if stoped by the police.

If Jason Leitch answers in the affirmative, surely they would accept a copy of that?

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[irnbru]

I have done the same and cannot find anything staying it is not allowed. The English restrictions are very clear, you can travel but must return home.
Several people, both here and in other places, say it is forbidden in Scotland but when asked for chapter and verse they do not reply.
Waiting to see if I get a reply from Jason Leitch.

No matter what JL says, I'm going by my SNP Councillor reply

 

[fat haggis]

No matter what JL says, I'm going by my SNP reply

Can you please share the snp reply for members to use if they get stoped by the police

 

[irnbru]

Can you please share the snp reply for members to use if they get stoped by the police

You already quoted it post 56

 

[WillH]

This thread highlights the problems that exist in Scotland. Simple rules and guidelines are easy to understand and follow, the increasingly complex and overwhelming rules and guidelines currently posted by the Scottish Government are hard to understand and thus difficult to observe.

Our local police evicted 50 would be campers at the weekend and sent them home, I assume they were 'out of area'.

 

[fat haggis]

You already quoted it post 56

I’m sorry to say again in that post it says nothing about staying overnight. Why can’t you post the full email giving members the confidence to challenge the polices I’d stopped.

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[bigtwin]

Have I got this right?

An SNP Councillor has responded to a constituent’s query, and this is being taken as a ‘fact’?

They say many, many, things that are not fact.

Ian

 

[fat haggis]

This thread highlights the problems that exist in Scotland. Simple rules and guidelines are easy to understand and follow, the increasingly complex and overwhelming rules and guidelines currently posted by the Scottish Government are hard to understand and thus difficult to observe.

Our local police evicted 50 would be campers at the weekend and sent them home, I assume they were 'out of area'.

Our police did the same and stoped any motorhome/campers staying overnight at any location. They are getting tough. it would be nice to show them it’s ok but as it stands we can’t show them proof it’s ok

 

[fat haggis]

Have I got this right?

An SNP Councillor has responded to a constituent’s query, and this is being taken as a ‘fact’?

They say many, many, things that are not fact.

Ian

That information is not given to all members only a select few ?

 

[Gellyneck]

This thread highlights the problems that exist in Scotland. Simple rules and guidelines are easy to understand and follow, the increasingly complex and overwhelming rules and guidelines currently posted by the Scottish Government are hard to understand and thus difficult to observe.

Our local police evicted 50 would be campers at the weekend and sent them home, I assume they were 'out of area'.

I had heard a rumour somewhere that some of them were even from England.

 

[irnbru]

I’m sorry to say again in that post it says nothing about staying overnight. Why can’t you post the full email giving members the confidence to challenge the polices I’d stopped.

It doesn’t say it’s a day trip either I think you are looking to not pick so I’m not going to bother replying to this thread anymore.

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[bigtwin]

That information is not given to all members only a select few ?

I’m not privy to that information; I was merely commenting on the fact that, whatever the question/answer, it was being taken as a ‘fact’ and being treated as a ‘legal judgement’.

Ian

 

[ambulancekidd]

Yes, one of our favourite places up that area. We were surprised how quite it was.

Thanks Gerry.
It looks gorgeous on a nice day, I was camping down there many years ago on a beautiful frosty morning & there wasn't a single ripple on the water, it was like glass & sadly I didn't have a camera.

Kind regards...Robert.

 

[Potty]

I had heard a rumour somewhere that some of them were even from England.

An English reg does not mean that the owner lives there. When we take our van out next week, I will post it on all local FB pages so the local vigilantes don’t get their knickers in a twist.

 

[fat haggis]

I’m not privy to that information; I was merely commenting on the fact that, whatever the question/answer, it was being taken as a ‘fact’ and being treated as a ‘legal judgement’.

Ian

I agree with you 100% mate

 

[fat haggis]

If anybody is travelling up from the rest of the uk to camp in Scotland at the moment. I hope they do get stoped fined and charged. As they are giving the motorhome community a bad name.

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[Gellyneck]

An English reg does not mean that the owner lives there. When we take our van out next week, I will post it on all local FB pages so the local vigilantes don’t get their knickers in a twist.

However if they gave the police their address it's pretty conclusive (or they were fibbing).

 

[deleted79651]

Our police did the same and stoped any motorhome/campers staying overnight at any location. They are getting tough. it would be nice to show them it’s ok but as it stands we can’t show them prof it’s ok

It's difficult/impossible to provide proof of something which doesn't exist! There is no specific permission to stay overnight; but there is no prohibition, either. The Guidance and Regs cannot cover every eventuality, and both the Police, and we as citizens must look at the spirit or intention of the Guidance.

My take on the spirit is that overnight stays were not envisaged. Why? We have moved from 'Stay at Home' to 'Stay Local' and IF there are no problems/flare ups, on 26th April, campsites and caravan sites can reopen. This signifies the intention to allow overnight stays. There is a prohibition on 2nd home owners who travel to prepare their property for letting etc from 'using it as an excuse to take a holiday' by staying on for a couple of extra days.

Final thought: If every motorhomer in Scotland takes overnight stays between now and 26th April and case numbers in Scotland soar, the wider 26th April restart date is at risk, even if there is no direct link between overnight stays and infections. And that will bugger things up for everyone, campsite owners, caravanners, campers, motorhomers and local economies.

There is no Reg to give you permission to overnight; there is no Reg that forbids you to do so. We must each make our own decision and live with the consequences.

Steve

 

[Potty]

It's difficult/impossible to provide proof of something which doesn't exist! There is no specific permission to stay overnight; but there is no prohibition, either. The Guidance and Regs cannot cover every eventuality, and both the Police, and we as citizens must look at the spirit or intention of the Guidance.

My take on the spirit is that overnight stays were not envisaged. Why? We have moved from 'Stay at Home' to 'Stay Local' and IF there are no problems/flare ups, on 26th April, campsites and caravan sites can reopen. This signifies the intention to allow overnight stays. There is a prohibition on 2nd home owners who travel to prepare their property for letting etc from 'using it as an excuse to take a holiday' by staying on for a couple of extra days.

Final thought: If every motorhomer in Scotland takes overnight stays between now and 26th April and case numbers in Scotland soar, the wider 26th April restart date is at risk, even if there is no direct link between overnight stays and infections. And that will bugger things up for everyone, campsite owners, caravanners, campers, motorhomers and local economies.

There is no Reg to give you permission to overnight; there is no Reg that forbids you to do so. We must each make our own decision and live with the consequences.

Steve

It's difficult/impossible to provide proof of something which doesn't exist! There is no specific permission to stay overnight; but there is no prohibition, either. The Guidance and Regs cannot cover every eventuality, and both the Police, and we as citizens must look at the spirit or intention of the Guidance.

My take on the spirit is that overnight stays were not envisaged. Why? We have moved from 'Stay at Home' to 'Stay Local' and IF there are no problems/flare ups, on 26th April, campsites and caravan sites can reopen. This signifies the intention to allow overnight stays. There is a prohibition on 2nd home owners who travel to prepare their property for letting etc from 'using it as an excuse to take a holiday' by staying on for a couple of extra days.

Final thought: If every motorhomer in Scotland takes overnight stays between now and 26th April and case numbers in Scotland soar, the wider 26th April restart date is at risk, even if there is no direct link between overnight stays and infections. And that will bugger things up for everyone, campsite owners, caravanners, campers, motorhomers and local economies.

There is no Reg to give you permission to overnight; there is no Reg that forbids you to do so. We must each make our own decision and live with the consequences.

Steve

There have been no new cases in our area for the 7 days up until 5th April, so as long as people do not come from out of our area, travelling should not cause a problem.
If we go somewhere and stay overnight, we will be travelling less than if we came home and went back the next day, which is fully within the rules!

 

[Kirsten]

Copied and added to from another thread -
Dear God- loosing will to live here.
Long story short 6 of us planning to moho in 3 vans up to Skye in May [ hoped to go onto Lewis but ? apparently Islands definitely not opening still in different tiers ] so have booked mainly 2 xnights at CCC and C and M sites with refunds/moveable dates/no booking fees etc . Herding cats trying to get itinery sorted- breakthrough last night when finally booked first leg and way home apart from 2 nights.
Phoned a chosen campsite to book as they had no online booking and lovely owner said they were not taking any bookings as the proposed lockdown regs only refer to self catering accommodation NOT any camping at all, and that anyone taking bookings in Scotland has no basis to assume the campsites will open even for Scottish residents [we thought the gamble was us sassenachs/expat scots making a break for the border] on the 26th April.
Anyway going to book somewhere else that will let us book , bu this has taken hours of work to plan and re plan at various hurdles and I am wondering if the carefree days of just going out in the van will ever return. Yes I know there is a pandemic but we still have to live a life and I wish that someone somewhere would clarify things! Rant over xx
added
Just phoned second choice campsite for last 2 days and the owner there [8 miles from first one ] said they were fully booked for ALL May and June but they would not have been able to take a booking for 3 motorhomes as we are from different households and the rules forbid us mixing. I give up ! I assume they are fully booked by one VERY large family for May and June as I dont see the difference between us travelling in convoy[ish] and keeping to same distancing rules as any other campers when we get there .

 

[Mountain man]

I have sent email to Police Scotland Highlands division regarding overnight stays in Campervans / Motorhomes and await there response

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