RV Tachographs?

[Verteuil Man]

I have been sent this link to a YouTube report. It is in German with an AI translation.
It seems to be reporting that a motorhome and trailer combination over 7.5 tonnes are been pulled by the Police and asked for a drivers card (tachograph). Not sure if this is just Germany or not but it would be worrying for some.

 

[funflair]

I read this on LinerTreff forum and the general consensus is that it's somewhat a grey area, I think it hinges on whether the carrying of a car in a garage or on a trailer could be for commercial purposes.

This is just one post but they don't read easily being auto translated,


To the wave, which is currently being pushed by some is highly stylized and manufacturers who supposedly have no interest:------ Here is an excerpt from a new contribution by Reinhold Luerweg in the Morelo Owner Club:

"...... It also happened to me in Hesse. Morelo Palace 85 L 7.49 tons plus 1.8 tons trailer. Is it possibly always the same highway police????? If someone has a name from the policeman, please send me a PM. I have his business card. The legal situation is at least so unclear that Morelo himself is interested in clarifying. For this, however, a complaint would really have to be made and a conviction would have to take place. Then an appeal can be filed to get a reference judgment. The police only issues a complaint and then sends it to the responsible office (I mean to the industrial inspectorate) in the federal state of the place of registration of the towing vehicle. According to our police officer, the procedure is then discontinued here, since there is no business. My ad is now two months ago and I have not heard anything. If I am convicted, I will appeal with the promised support of Morelo and the association. Until this point, I continue without hesitation and am very surprised about so much half-knowledge. I can't clarify it clearly..."

Again, I find it fatal to really tear a wound open by involving the whole world Who says that it will turn out in our favor if you make everyone wuschig

 

[Brains]

To be honest, I was always under the impression that if the (combined) weight is over 7.5t then you need a tacho.
That is EU wide (including UK) law.

You will also need an HGV licence as the C1 only takes you 7.5t

As far as I'm aware ANY commercial vehicle over 3.5t needs a tacho,
which excludes motorhomes as they are not commercial vehicles,
but the vast majority of motorhomes in the EU are under plated at under 3.5t.
(Although my guess is many are way over 3.5t)

Even 20 years ago we had to have tacho's fitted to 17 seat Transit minibuses in France, as they were over 3.5t,
Even though they were not being driven by professional or paid drivers, nor for commercial purposes.

Since 2017 it has not been legal to drive a UK minibus with more than 9 seats in France, even with a Tacho, as they insist on drivers being 'professionals' with a PVC licence.

Hence, our Scout fleet of 7 minibuses can no longer do the annual trips to the Alps.
We go to Scotland instead.

 

[pappajohn]

To be honest, I was always under the impression that if the (combined) weight is over 7.5t then you need a tacho.
That is EU wide (including UK) law.

Only if it's a goods carrying vehicle which obviously a motorhome isn't.
And why over 7500kg, weight is not an issue if it carries goods

 

[Jenka]

If it's driven for personal use only ,you do not need a tachograph,if your using it for commercial purpose then yes .

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[Brains]

If it's driven for personal use only ,you do not need a tachograph,if your using it for commercial purpose then yes .

Yes, but you can't drive say a 12m 20 tonne coach based motorhome on a C1 licence.

As far as I'm aware almost anything over 7.5t needs a tacho.
(I think the only exclusions are construction and agricultural vehicles, which typically don't get driven very far on roads)

 

[Verteuil Man]

I remember a few years ago when I was sorting out paperwork on a road sweeper. I had filled in the paperwork to say it was exempt from tachograph because 'it was not carrying goods for material gain'. The inspector said that we were because we were collecting debris from the road and carrying it away. I argued that we had contract to sweep roads outside a quarry ounce a week regardless of picking up any debris. We only collected debris went the wind changed and blew sand onto the road. We did not have to put tachographs in the sweepers.

 

[Brains]

I remember a few years ago when I was sorting out paperwork on a road sweeper. I had filled in the paperwork to say it was exempt from tachograph because 'it was not carrying goods for material gain'. The inspector said that we were because we were collecting debris from the road and carrying it away. I argued that we had contract to sweep roads outside a quarry ounce a week regardless of picking up any debris. We only collected debris went the wind changed and blew sand onto the road. We did not have to put tachographs in the sweepers.

I think that is an inspector splitting hairs, as I'd class a sweeper as a construction or agricultural vehicle.

The tachos are there to stop drivers spending 100+ hours at the wheel,
and doing crazy long distance like Warsaw to Madrid in one go.

A road sweeper is never going to do a 16hr day, 7 days a week with one driver.
(No town is big enough!)

 

[Brains]

Looking at the weight rules here:

Medium-sized vehicles​

Category C1​

You can drive vehicles between 3,500 and 7,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) (with a trailer up to 750kg).

Category C1E​

You can drive C1 category vehicles with a trailer over 750kg.
The combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of both cannot exceed 12,000kg.

So you can drive a 7.5t motorhome with a 4.5t trailer, with a C1E licence.
Weather you then need a tacho, as the MAM is over 7.5t seem a bit of a gray area.

 

[funflair]

Looking at the weight rules here:

Medium-sized vehicles​

Category C1​

You can drive vehicles between 3,500 and 7,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) (with a trailer up to 750kg).

Category C1E​

You can drive C1 category vehicles with a trailer over 750kg.
The combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of both cannot exceed 12,000kg.

So you can drive a 7.5t motorhome with a 4.5t trailer, with a C1E licence.
Weather you then need a tacho, as the MAM is over 7.5t seem a bit of a gray area.

You need to check and drive in accordance your licence though as most C1E have an additional proviso that the MAM is not over 8250kg,

Re tacho, in the case of a motorhome which is for private use you don't need a tacho.

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[Carpmart]

Most UK licences pre 97 allow 8250kg max train weight, with max vehicle 7500kg

 

[Jenka]

Yes, but you can't drive say a 12m 20 tonne coach based motorhome on a C1 licence.

As far as I'm aware almost anything over 7.5t needs a tacho.
(I think the only exclusions are construction and agricultural vehicles, which typically don't get driven very far on roads)

Different licence classification on a car license upto 16 seats on a mini bus. A private registered commercial is out of scope of the legislation regardless of weight for drivers hours not license category.

 

[Nigel P]

Looking at the weight rules here:

Medium-sized vehicles​

Category C1​

You can drive vehicles between 3,500 and 7,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) (with a trailer up to 750kg).

Category C1E​

You can drive C1 category vehicles with a trailer over 750kg.
The combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of both cannot exceed 12,000kg.

So you can drive a 7.5t motorhome with a 4.5t trailer, with a C1E licence.
Weather you then need a tacho, as the MAM is over 7.5t seem a bit of a gray area.

Tachographs are for commercial use only. They are required to be fitted for passenger carrying and goods vehicles intended for commercial use, they are to regulate commercial traffic to create a level playing field in the businesses of transportation. They have no place in a domestic scenario. Tacho use is defined by a combination of vehicle type and vehicle purpose, delivering goods in a truck would require tacho, taking the same truck for test would not.

 

[Brains]

You need to check and drive in accordance your licence though as most C1E have an additional proviso that the MAM is not over 8250kg,

Re tacho, in the case of a motorhome which is for private use you don't need a tacho.

No tacho ?
Even if the motorhome is a 12m 20 ton coach based monster than needs an HGV licence?

My understanding is if it's over 7.5t (and not a construction/agricultural vehicle) then you need a tacho.
(There may be a gray area if it's 7.5t with a 1.25t trailer = 8.25t).

But still a basic 10 ton motorhome needs a tacho as far as I'm aware.
You 'may' be able to claim under 'GB domestic rules' that it's not required in the UK
But GB domestic rules do not apply outside the England, Wales and Scotland.

 

[pappajohn]

Folks keep telling you there's no tacho required but you don't want to agree.
Find a link to a website that says you do need one.
This one may convince you.
https://www.eptraining.co.uk/news/a...A tachograph is typically required,no need fo

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[jongood]

No tacho ?
Even if the motorhome is a 12m 20 ton coach based monster than needs an HGV licence?

My understanding is if it's over 7.5t (and not a construction/agricultural vehicle) then you need a tacho.
(There may be a gray area if it's 7.5t with a 1.25t trailer = 8.25t).

But still a basic 10 ton motorhome needs a tacho as far as I'm aware.
You 'may' be able to claim under 'GB domestic rules' that it's not required in the UK
But GB domestic rules do not apply outside the England, Wales and Scotland.

You don't need to use a tacho in a private vehicle, therefore in your minibus example you don't need to use a tacho unless the driver is driving commercially and or passengers are paying. Our Motorhome is plated at 8600kgs, it has a tacho but I'm not required to use it or to record my hours.

Regarding towing a trailer with a C Licence, the important bits are whether the trailer is over 750kgs and/or constructed to carry a load, e.g you can tow a cable laying trailer that exceeds 750Kgs but you can't tow a 751kgs flat trailer. The example of in the video is a policeman being extremely picky, his argument relies on being able to prove that the motorhome driver was carrying the car for reward which should be easy enough to defend.

 

[jongood]

Most UK licences pre 97 allow 8250kg max train weight, with max vehicle 7500kg

I don't think a C1 licence holder would be able to legally tow a 1.75 tonne trailer because the Mh is less than 6.5t, I think they would need C1+E

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

The EU drivers hour rules apply for all goods and bus etc vehicles over 3500kg. The GB domestic rules only cover England, Scotland and Wales.
Whilst a motorhome of any size is out of scope, once a towbar is fitted and a goods trailer attached, empty or not, the outfit is then potentially a goods vehicle and the GB domestic rules are not of any use outside England, Scotland or Wales.
The best way to avoid any confusion is to clearly mark the vehicle as ‘Not for hire or reward’ as that makes clear that there is no commercial purpose as a starting position in any debate with the authorities.

 

[gus-lopez]

You will also need an HGV licence as the C1 only takes you 7.5t

Not knowing the German rules but I'd have thought he was on dodgy ground with that combination . I fail to see why he would even think he could drive it at 9300kgs? He would need to have passed a test here in spain just to drive the Morelo at 7490kgs.sure the germans are the same?

Looking at the weight rules here:

Medium-sized vehicles​

Category C1​

You can drive vehicles between 3,500 and 7,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) (with a trailer up to 750kg).

Category C1E​

You can drive C1 category vehicles with a trailer over 750kg.
The combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of both cannot exceed 12,000kg.

So you can drive a 7.5t motorhome with a 4.5t trailer, with a C1E licence.
Weather you then need a tacho, as the MAM is over 7.5t seem a bit of a gray area.

Unless you have passed a test.C1+E under grandfater rights if 7500kgs + 750 kgs trailer=8250kgs
If test passed then it is 12000kgs

You need to check and drive in accordance your licence though as most C1E have an additional proviso that the MAM is not over 8250kg,

This^^^^

 

[L' Hobo]

No tacho ?
Even if the motorhome is a 12m 20 ton coach based monster than needs an HGV licence?

My understanding is if it's over 7.5t (and not a construction/agricultural vehicle) then you need a tacho.
(There may be a gray area if it's 7.5t with a 1.25t trailer = 8.25t).

But still a basic 10 ton motorhome needs a tacho as far as I'm aware.
You 'may' be able to claim under 'GB domestic rules' that it's not required in the UK
But GB domestic rules do not apply outside the England, Wales and Scotland.

Domestic Rules in the UK does have certain rules and restrictions, so it might be worth going onto the Gov.Uk website to make sure.

PS. I seem to remember a couple of years ago, where an owner of a large PHGV motorhome was towing a trailor and the car on it was registered to someone else.

He couldn't prove that he was not receiving a reward for transporting it for profit, so was fined for not having an Operators licence, Tachograph or correct licence and the warning at the time was, make CERTAIN everything you have in your vehicles garage, belongs to you!

PS. I think it happened somewhere in Europe but as I no longer tour there, I took no notice of where or when.

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[busbuddy]

I used to take a race car to europe, germany and sweden, in a big artic and later in a wagon and drag for decades with no issues from not using the tacho as the 'not for hire or reward' was proudly displayed.
I dont know of any of my mates getting any grief from police in europe for not using the tacho, then or now, and some of them still run massive wagon and drag units.
A lot of heavily sponsored top teams employ proper drivers on tacho but I would assume it's hard for multi million pound teams to say its 'not for hire or reward'

 

[Peter and Julie]

Yes, but you can't drive say a 12m 20 tonne coach based motorhome on a C1 licence.

As far as I'm aware almost anything over 7.5t needs a tacho.
(I think the only exclusions are construction and agricultural vehicles, which typically don't get driven very far on roads)

If it's not for commercial purposes you don't need a tacho. If it's a learner vehicle (HGV) you also don't need a tacho.

 

[L' Hobo]

I used to take a race car to europe, germany and sweden, in a big artic and later in a wagon and drag for decades with no issues from not using the tacho as the 'not for hire or reward' was proudly displayed.
I dont know of any of my mates getting any grief from police in europe for not using the tacho, then or now, and some of them still run massive wagon and drag units.
A lot of heavily sponsored top teams employ proper drivers on tacho but I would assume it's hard for multi million pound teams to say its 'not for hire or reward'

Once you start winning cash or advertising your business or product. It then becomes 'for reward'.

 

[busbuddy]

The way I had it explained to me, I was a hgv driver at the time, was that the 'for reward' pertained to payment for carrying items in/on the vehicle.
I agree about advertising my business or product but race winnings didnt count

 

[L' Hobo]

The way I had it explained to me, I was a hgv driver at the time, was that the 'for reward' pertained to payment for carrying items in/on the vehicle.
I agree about advertising my business or product but race winnings didnt count

If you owned the vehicle, yes!

Do you mean you think that winning don't count or did you just not win.

Winning can be a lot of reward in some racing.
When I helped out with Honda Racing, all their trucks had tachographs.

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[L' Hobo]

I used to take a race car to europe, germany and sweden, in a big artic and later in a wagon and drag for decades with no issues from not using the tacho as the 'not for hire or reward' was proudly displayed.
I dont know of any of my mates getting any grief from police in europe for not using the tacho, then or now, and some of them still run massive wagon and drag units.
A lot of heavily sponsored top teams employ proper drivers on tacho but I would assume it's hard for multi million pound teams to say its 'not for hire or reward'

When I did truck testing/demonstration driving for manufacturers in UK & Sweden about 40yrs ago, that was all done on tradeplates but I think the law has changed since then?

Surprise you didn't get hassle in Aachen?

 

[Jev88]

I have seen similar discussion in RVOC.co.uk
Not commercially used and so no tachograph required and that includes RV over 7500Kg.

 

[G7UXG]

EEC Council Regulation 3820/85 dated 20th December 1985 regulates the use of tachograph in vehicles used for the carriage of goods or passengers.

It all gets a bit complicated to read but Section 2, Article 4 lists the exemptions from the scope of the regulations. Item 12 of the list (below) exempts vehicles carrying goods for non-commercial use (private use). These are European regulations and apply to all EU member states. The UK was a party to the regulation and adopted them post Brexit.

Difficult to argue with the police abroad when you don’t speak the lingo, but I’d be producing this regulation (which all traffic police should be aware of) and dig my heels in. It’s very clear in the regulations, provided it’s personal use.


This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by:

1. vehicles used for the carriage of goods where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle, including any trailer or semi-trailer, does not exceed 3,5 tonnes;

2. vehicles used for the carriage of passengers which, by virtue of their construction and equipement, are suitable for carrying not more than nine persons, including the driver, and are intended for that purpose;

3. vehicles used for the carriage of passengers on regular services where the route covered by the service in question does not exceed 50 kilometres;

4. vehicles with a maximum authorized speed not exceeding 30 kilometres per hour;

5. vehicles used by or under the control of the armed services, civil defence, fire services, and forces responsible for maintaining public order;

6. vehicles used in connection with the sewerage, flood protection, water, gas and electricity services, highway maintenance and control, refuse collection and disposal, telegraph and telephone services, carriage of postal articles, radio and television broadcasting and the detection of radio or television transmitters or receivers;

7. vehicles used in emergencies or rescue operations;

8. specialized vehicles used for medical purposes;

9. vehicles transporting circus and fun-fair equipment;

10. specialized breakdown vehicles;

11. vehicles undergoing road tests for technical development, repair or maintenance purposes, and new or rebuilt vehicles which have not yet been put into service;

12. vehicles used for non-commercial carriage of goods for personal use;

13. vehicles used for milk collection from farms and the return to farms of milk containers or milk products intended for animal feed.

 

[busbuddy]

When I helped out with Honda Racing, all their trucks had tachographs.

Yes they have tachos but I bet they also employ drivers which is different to what I call 'normal' racing teams

 

[busbuddy]

Surprise you didn't get hassle in Aachen?

Have unloaded the race car once when there for inspection
Even when I used to drive for work I never minded aachen, I miss it, anything less than a day wait and it felt like a win

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