Reverse Polarity ?? Spain??

[Speve]

yes it does but it will not sort an earth problem or earth leakage..

I was not talking about earth problems just RP?

Who gives you the hassle? Cant you just explain to them that the ‘reverse polarity issue’ just doesn't exist?

Ian

No one as I have a tail to stop it happening??

 

[autorouter]

The site supply may be two phase. These used to be a fairly common problem in France. What that means in essence is two out-of-phase 110v supplies added together to make 220v. So if this was the problem you have one live phase connected to live, the other live phase connected to neutral, and earth connected exactly between them. If this is the case and with everything in the van switched off a meter between live and earth will read approx. 110v and a meter between neutral and earth will read approx. 110v. For any normal situation none of this matters but if your van monitors the incoming supply for earth and/or for L/N reversal it will be confused to say the least. as will your test plug.

Usually these test plugs look at the voltage between 'live' and 'earth', and also between 'neutral' and 'earth'.
Normal polarity = earth to live: voltage, earth to neutral: no voltage.
Reverse polarity = earth to live: no voltage, earth to neutral: voltage.
With a two-phase (also called centre-tapped) supply, there is voltage between earth and both live and neutral, which explains

Yes, I have. I get 3 lights BUT the "no earth" light seems slight dimmer than the first 2 ??

This is such an uncommon ocurrence that it isn't in the list of possible faults. In fact, it's not actually a fault, it's how it is designed.

 

[tonyidle]

Usually these test plugs look at the voltage between 'live' and 'earth', and also between 'neutral' and 'earth'.
Normal polarity = earth to live: voltage, earth to neutral: no voltage.
Reverse polarity = earth to live: no voltage, earth to neutral: voltage.
With a two-phase (also called centre-tapped) supply, there is voltage between earth and both live and neutral, which explains

This is such an uncommon ocurrence that it isn't in the list of possible faults. In fact, it's not actually a fault, it's how it is designed.

True. From what I remember reading about some French supplies it was used in some locations to obtain a 220v supply when they converted from 110v.

 

[PeteH]

The only remaining issue, is the fact that in the UK The single pole Outlet sockets ONLY switch the "live" pole. therefore with reversed polarity it is possible to have 220V live between Neutral and Earth despite the "live" pole being switched off. All `van`s destined for UK use are fitted with standard UK sockets. Double pole switching, used in many other countries avoids this.

 

[autorouter]

The only remaining issue, is the fact that in the UK The single pole Outlet sockets ONLY switch the "live" pole.

No, there are several other issues

Many self-build MHs have a standard 'Garage Unit' for a consumer unit on the incoming mains. The UK version of this has single-pole MCBs instead of double-pole or 'single-pole plus neutral' ones.

And since when has the double-pole fuse for the UK fused plugs been invented?

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[The Wino]

No, there are several other issues

Many self-build MHs have a standard 'Garage Unit' for a consumer unit on the incoming mains. The UK version of this has single-pole MCBs instead of double-pole or 'single-pole plus neutral' ones.

And since when has the double-pole fuse for the UK fused plugs been invented?

I don't think plugs in other countries even have fuses neither will the fuse stop you getting electrocuted.
I'm hoping as ours is a French van they just changed the sockets and we have double poll RCDs on the distribution box.

 

[PeteH]

And since when has the double-pole fuse for the UK fused plugs been invented?

I am not sure exactly what you are saying here?. UK Plugs have only fused the "L" (Live) since the 1960`s??. before that they where never fused. Prior to that there where 2 different sized round pin plugs 5amp and 15amp as I recall. The only fusing was at the consumer box, with the old style wired Fuses.

You can obtain double pole switching. but outside of industrial application I cannot remember seeing it?. Some of the Swedish Built Shipping from the 60`s onwards did have all double pole switching. Where both live and neutral are disconnected simultaneously, and reverse polarity is not material

 

[tonyidle]

I am not sure exactly what you are saying here?. UK Plugs have only fused the "L" (Live) since the 1960`s??. before that they where never fused. Prior to that there where 2 different sized round pin plugs 5amp and 15amp as I recall. The only fusing was at the consumer box, with the old style wired Fuses.

You can obtain double pole switching. but outside of industrial application I cannot remember seeing it?. Some of the Swedish Built Shipping from the 60`s onwards did have all double pole switching. Where both live and neutral are disconnected simultaneously, and reverse polarity is not material

I think what autorouter is saying is that with a Neutral at mains voltage with respect to Earth there is no fuse protection for a Neutral to Earth short-circuit. Not that it would matter because the RCD would trip anyway .

 

[bigguspeckus]

Hi

I am currently in Spain and have an EHU, standard 3pin blue socket, which shows as Reverse Polarity, control panel red and showing RP. Even when the RP adaptor is placed in line the control panel still shows Reverse Polarity ??
Everything seems to work ok, except the 12v system is acting up by switching the lights and pump off and causing the sat dish to shut down at least once in a 24hr period.
Has anyone else ever had this problem??
Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Tim. We are currently in Sanluca de Barrameda, Southern Spain

Hi

I am currently in Spain and have an EHU, standard 3pin blue socket, which shows as Reverse Polarity, control panel red and showing RP. Even when the RP adaptor is placed in line the control panel still shows Reverse Polarity ??
Everything seems to work ok, except the 12v system is acting up by switching the lights and pump off and causing the sat dish to shut down at least once in a 24hr period.
Has anyone else ever had this problem??
Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

We are currently on a site in Sanluca de Barrameda Southern Spain with 3amp EHU.
RP indicated when I plugged in,,, fitted my "reverse the reverse polarity" lead,,, RP still indicated.
My sckt tester shew RP and earth fault.
My multimeter shows 201v between L&N, and 124v between L&E.
Its the same rite across the site with exception to the managers office.
The Sargent Unit is charging the batteries and the Dyson is charging ok (and we have solar) so just living with it,,, but very aware that we have a dodgy earth!

 

[Moonchild]

If an appliance develops an internal fault (short cct) then the fuse will still blow if on the neutral leg (reverse polarity situation).
If there’s an inbalance greater than 30mA between L & N then the RCD will trip (either polarity situations).
Reverse Polarity is only an issue if you decide to open up an appliance that’s still connected - why anyone would I don’t know.
There are pros and cons for European double pole switching - if the live switching pole fails, the appliance will turn off (neutral has opened) but power will still be at the unit.
With UK single pole switching, if the switch fails (doesn’t open when toggled) then the unit will not turn off and be obvious to see.
Personally, I prefer single pole switching but for any maintenance I would isolate both L & N.

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[autorouter]

I am not sure exactly what you are saying here?. UK Plugs have only fused the "L" (Live) since the 1960`s??. before that they where never fused. Prior to that there where 2 different sized round pin plugs 5amp and 15amp as I recall. The only fusing was at the consumer box, with the old style wired Fuses.

That's because all circuits were radial. There was a 2amp unfused plug too, still in use for room lighting for example. And the 15amp is still used in for example South Africa. When ring mains were introduced, a 30amp fuse protected the ring. Each appliance needed its own fuse. That's why all UK appliance plugs have fuses, and why inspections are strict about 'polarity' of wiring.

European circuits are all radial, protected by double-pole or single pole with switched neutral (1P+N) MCBs, usually 16amp. Appliance wiring can handle 16amps, so no fuse is necessary in plugs. Polarity is meaningless for symmetrical plugs like German/Spanish 'Schuko' plugs, so inspection is lax for polarised round blue sockets too. Even centre-tapped or 'double-live' supplies like the OP encountered are permitted.

Professionally wired motorhomes in Europe, and even in the UK, will have an RCD and 1P+N MCB, or alternatively an RCBO. The good news is, if you have an RCD or RCBO, polarity problems are a minor safety issue. But if your motorhome doesn't have an RCD, and you plug into a site like this, it's a serious safety issue

 

[gus-lopez]

I always carry a short reverse Polarity tail that is wired opposite to main lead so if there is a problem I just change leads?for what it costs saves a lot of hassle?

So did the OP & he still had a fault.

but very aware that we have a dodgy earth!

First thing I was taught was earth spike in the ground & attach to MH.

 

[Raul]

I have seen neutral bonded to earth in EU in many places. Usually done at the utility, before the consumer and meter. Think is some misinterpret TNE TE and bond the neutral in the consumer unit. Some shoddy places even you get a buzz from bath tab or shower.

 

[bigguspeckus]

So did the OP & he still had a fault.

First thing I was taught was earth spike in the ground & attach to MH.

Wot,,, even before you were taught to wipe ya own bum?!

 

[Odd-no-more]

Wot,,, even before you were taught to wipe ya own bum?!

Standard earth spike is 1mt long so.not easy to fit or remove.

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[PeteH]

That's because all circuits were radial. There was a 2amp unfused plug too, still in use for room lighting for example. And the 15amp is still used in for example South Africa. When ring mains were introduced, a 30amp fuse protected the ring. Each appliance needed its own fuse. That's why all UK appliance plugs have fuses, and why inspections are strict about 'polarity' of wiring.

European circuits are all radial, protected by double-pole or single pole with switched neutral (1P+N) MCBs, usually 16amp. Appliance wiring can handle 16amps, so no fuse is necessary in plugs. Polarity is meaningless for symmetrical plugs like German/Spanish 'Schuko' plugs, so inspection is lax for polarised round blue sockets too. Even centre-tapped or 'double-live' supplies like the OP encountered are permitted.

Professionally wired motorhomes in Europe, and even in the UK, will have an RCD and 1P+N MCB, or alternatively an RCBO. The good news is, if you have an RCD or RCBO, polarity problems are a minor safety issue. But if your motorhome doesn't have an RCD, and you plug into a site like this, it's a serious safety issue

I see now. Apart from doing the majority of the wiring of a full ring main when I did a self build. Which was ultimately signed off by the "board". Most of my experience had been with Ships, Starting with 110V DC!. Of course "we" used the Ship itself as the Earth (Steel sat in Salt water?). Therefore most wiring was only Live and Neutral twin, in a Lead sheath. Once the ships went over to 3 phase A/C Generation. then much else was 3phase (440V) for pumps and machinery, On later vessels all those I saw had Double Pole Breakers for just about everything. With multiple Cascaded Sections.

I`ve actually seen an iron, a radio, and the Light bulb. all run of one light fitting. Back in the days when the cabins only had lighting, no power sockets. And yes, I had forgotten the old 2pin round plugs, often powering metal items with no (real) earthing protection either. Oh, and 5amp fuses wired with 15amp wire?.

 

[PeteH]

I think what autorouter is saying is that with a Neutral at mains voltage with respect to Earth there is no fuse protection for a Neutral to Earth short-circuit. Not that it would matter because the RCD would trip anyway .

Hopefully? and isolation both ways, and assuming, there was an RCD?. Some early installations may not have them?. Early self builds come to mind?.

 

[Tim Raphael]

UPDATE:
Thanks for all the comments but I don't think anyone could have solved this in a few words.
Taking advice from the comments and disconnected for 24hrs, run on gas etc. All problems went away.
Reconnected and the problems returned:
Random switch off of 12v lights, pump and heater connection. The heater would reconnect automatically and you would have to switch on the 12v light and pump at the control panel.
Batter charger, Sterling 30amp, showed no faults.
Although the control registered "RP", adaptor had no effect.
Now on another site which initially registered "RP" but corrected with adaptor and no faults or random switch offs.
So, in my opinion, those that believe a 230v fault cannot effect the 12v system may wish to note, it obviously can,
Thanks for all your comments, I'm off to the beach!