Replacing Gel Batteries with Lithium - Hassle-Free?

[EuroTrotters]

OKay,

So,

Can I replace my Ageing Gel Batteries with Lithium without too much hassle and modification. Did not think I could Initially !

We currently have

2 x Trojan 24TMX 80ah batteries (lasted well)
2 x 80w solar
Victron Energy Smart Solar 75v 15 amp Solar Charge controller (Bluetooth)
Victron Energy MultiPlus 2Kva Inverter (Version I)
110amp Alternator

We no longer use the Elektroblok EBL99 to charge the leisure batteries on EHU, that is done by the Victron multiplus

The batteries are now starting to fail and I am looking to replace them. I was going to simply put two new Trojan ones in then looked at Lithium LifeP04 !

After reading through the recommendations here, and notes from Raul , Lenny HB and I think the Fogstar Drift 105 would be the way to go.

I suggested on another thread that I would like 2 x 105 Fogstars. Then RogerIvy suggested they might/could be an issue with amps drawn from the Alternator.

I then got to thinking !. We have managed so-far with 2 x 80ah Gels (so in reality only 80ah useable). So the 105 ah Fogstar might suffice. Though a 150ah or 2 x 75ah with they don't sell would be better.

The Fogstar 105 would give us 25% more power with a 30Kg weight saving to boot !

I don't really want to go down the route of fitting a B2B as I am a bit confused as to how to disconnect the Elektoblok. But, I have looked at the...

Victron 30a 12v DC DC B2B Battery Charger Motorhome Camper Boat Barge VW DC17.2

If I have to upgrade the Victron Multiplus to a Multiplus II, I am not to bothered as I could make use of the old one for a UPS system for our house security systems. As I think the version I has an interrupt system / auto changeover built in ?.

​

 

[Raul]

Why do you have to change the multiplus?
Multiplus 2kva compact its all the same as multiplus 2 except some relays.
Myself as a B2B, i use a dc dc converter with fixed voltage and a swich

 

[EuroTrotters]

Why do you have to change the multiplus?
Multiplus 2kva compact its all the same as multiplus 2 except some relays.
Myself as a B2B, i use a dc dc converter with fixed voltage and a swich

I thought the MultiPlus Version I was not so compatible with Lithium \!

 

[Raul]

All multipluses are compatible with lithium, you just go in the settings under charger and change to lifepo4.
Even older models with updated firmware works almost like the latest model.

 

[StillGoing]

If you’ve got an EBL then installing a 30A B2B is simple and you shouldn’t have to run a new cable from the starter battery.

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[StillGoing]

Deleted

 

[Speve]

I have just fitted a 300a Fogstar Pro which incorporates a Victron 2000a Multi plus a Victron dc-dc charger with battery protect and solar I found that all I needed to disconnect on the EBL was the mains charger and the cable on the back of the EBL that connects to the starter battery and changed the setting on it to Gel.
I am really pleased with the set up and it works really well after a few trips away
the only addition I have made is to add a battery master to avoid needing to use EHU at all.

 

[EuroTrotters]

If you’ve got an EBL then installing a 30A B2B is simple and you shouldn’t have to run a new cable from the starter battery.

I am probably being to lazy to work that out !

I have carried out all the work on out 4 motorhomes with issue (even the manager at Southdowns said I could have a job after seeing my work (self praising over)).

Just trying to keep things simple due to health and time

 

[Speve]

Just trying to keep things simple due to health and time

I did run new cables from starter battery for the DC-DC charger however my battery and power locker is just behind drivers door from memory two 6mm cables

 

[jezport]

If you’ve got an EBL then installing a 30A B2B is simple and you shouldn’t have to run a new cable from the starter battery.

We don't have a B2B and I'm getting around 18a + from my alternator and solar

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[RogerIvy]

I don't really want to go down the route of fitting a B2B as I am a bit confused as to how to disconnect the Elektoblok. But, I have looked at the...

We‘ve just published two resources that may be of help:

Installing a DC-DC Charger
Installing a Relay Alongside a DC-DC Charger

They need some more work and tidying up (have a few people looking at them to provide feedback). In particular we need to include some info on fuses. Any feedback would be welcome, particularly questions they don’t answer.

 

[RogerIvy]

I suggested on another thread that I would like 2 x 105 Fogstars. Then RogerIvy suggested they might/could be an issue with amps drawn from the Alternator.

Just to be clear it’s not the alternator I’m concerned about, it’s more the EBL and the existing wires running from the starter battery to EBL (although on a Hymer could be OK).

 

[Raul]

We‘ve just published two resources that may be of help:

Installing a DC-DC Charger
Installing a Relay Alongside a DC-DC Charger

They need some more work and tidying up (have a few people looking at them to provide feedback). In particular we need to include some info on fuses. Any feedback would be welcome, particularly questions they don’t answer.

I have read it almost all. There is terminology and wording that can confuse some: there isn't two charging systems, its only one source ( alternator), with two paths: one direct uncontrolled ( split charge) , and one controlled path dc dc. You can chose one or the other, but not both. The choice depends on battery and alternator type.
Other than that i would add a time delay relay on smart alternators feeding a dc dc.

 

[rwg]

Shouldn't the existing wires from the vehicle battery be protected by an appropriate fuse near the vehicle battery?

The existing fuse should be less than the current carrying capacity of the wire to prevent a fire hazard in case of a short circuit beyond the fuse. If the lithium battery manages to draw excessive current then it will blow the fuse before the wires are at risk of overheating (or before the alternator is at any risk come to that - unless the fuse has some huge rating).

If the fuse blows then it's time to install a B2B, if it doesn't then the wiring is capable of supporting the battery.

One thing to be aware of is that if the battery is going to draw excess current and blow the fuse then it's likely to happen when the battery is at a low state of charge (lower battery voltage, more voltage difference between the alternator and the battery).

cheers,

Robin

 

[RogerIvy]

I have read it almost all. There is terminology and wording that can confuse some: there isn't two charging systems, its only one source ( alternator), with two paths: one direct uncontrolled ( split charge) , and one controlled path dc dc. You can chose one or the other, but not both. The choice depends on battery and alternator type.
Other than that i would add a time delay relay on smart alternators feeding a dc dc.

Thanks for the feedback

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[Lenny HB]

Just to be clear it’s not the alternator I’m concerned about, it’s more the EBL and the existing wires running from the starter battery to EBL (although on a Hymer could be OK).

Normally 16 mm sq on a Hymer so providing the cable run is not too long it should should be OK with a 30 amp B2B.

 

[Lenny HB]

I don't really want to go down the route of fitting a B2B as I am a bit confused as to how to disconnect the Elektoblok. But, I have looked at the...

Well worth fitting it will make sure the batteries get the correct charge and will protect the alternator.

Very easy to fit as Alan Speve did, just did connect starter battery input to the ELB and connect the cable to the B2B input then connect the output of the B2B to the batteries.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Well worth fitting it will make sure the batteries get the correct charge and will protect the alternator.

Very easy to fit as Alan Speve did, just did connect starter battery input to the ELB and connect the cable to the B2B input then connect the output of the B2B to the batteries.

Thank you again Lenny., I just need to locate the Starter battery Input

 

[Lenny HB]

Thank you again Lenny., I just need to locate the Starter battery Input

Red wire in the back of the EBL or disconnect at the 50 amp fuse by the starter battery and run a new cable.

 

[Speve]

EuroTrotters as Lenny HB has said it’s very simple as per my diagram the terminal 3 either needs to be disconnected and then used as input to DC-DC Then add the negative from starter. On the other side connect both to either bus bars or directly to your leisure battery.

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[EuroTrotters]

Thanks, when I can see properly again I will take a look.

Currently have 6th nerve palsy

 

[Larby]

Lithium anyone?

 

[autorouter]

I don't really want to go down the route of fitting a B2B as I am a bit confused as to how to disconnect the Elektoblok.

With a Schaudt Electroblock EBL99 it's very simple. There are two ways to do it.

If it's a 30A B2B then you can route the amps through the EBL. To do this, mount the B2B near the EBL. Disconnect the thick starter battery wire from the back of the EBL, and connect it to the starter battery input of the B2B. Then run a new wire of the same thickness from the output of the B2B to the starter battery terminal at the back of the EBL.

If the B2B is more than 30A, then the EBL internal wiring won't be able to handle the extra amps. You'll have to run a complete new wire from the starter battery to the B2B, and from the B2B to the leisure battery. To disable the EBL split charge relay, simply remove the big fuse (50A probably) next to the starter battery, on the wire that runs to the EBL.

You can of course use the second method for a 30A B2B if you prefer.

The confusion arises with other brands of 'EBL', ie other distribution/fuseboxes like Sargent or CBE. The starter battery supply for the split charge relay and the other things like the fridge are not separated as they are in the EBL99, so that causes complications.

 

[Lenny HB]

If it's a 30A B2B then you can route the amps through the EBL. To do this, mount the B2B near the EBL. Disconnect the thick starter battery wire from the back of the EBL, and connect it to the starter battery input of the B2B. Then run a new wire of the same thickness from the output of the B2B to the starter battery terminal at the back of the EBL.

I wouldn't recommend that on Trev's van as it's quite old and EBL relay contacts could be a bit carboned up, he might end up with only half the charge rate, I've seen it happen.

 

[EuroTrotters]

battery ordered

Lithium Leisure Battery - Fogstar Drift 12v 105Ah

105ah 12v Fogstar Drift Lithium Leisure Battery | Grade A LiFePO4 cells, JBD BMS, Bluetooth, Heating | Lowest Prices in the UK. 10 Year Warranty.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Next Step 30 amp Victron B2B me thinks

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[RogerIvy]

battery ordered

Lithium Leisure Battery - Fogstar Drift 12v 105Ah

105ah 12v Fogstar Drift Lithium Leisure Battery | Grade A LiFePO4 cells, JBD BMS, Bluetooth, Heating | Lowest Prices in the UK. 10 Year Warranty.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Next Step 30 amp Victron B2B me thinks

...or wait a bit for the new Victron 50A Buckboost

 

[EuroTrotters]

...or wait a bit for the new Victron 50A Buckboost

Thanks, But from what I can see thats for intelligent alternators !?>

 

[autorouter]

Thanks, But from what I can see thats for intelligent alternators !?>

It was developed because the newer intelligent alternators are very bad at fully charging any leisure battery, and are particularly bad with lithium batteries. So there is more of a market nowadays for a DC-DC charger. However it works with all types of alternator, including non-intelligent standard alternators.

 

[EuroTrotters]

It was developed because the newer intelligent alternators are very bad at fully charging any leisure battery, and are particularly bad with lithium batteries. So there is more of a market nowadays for a DC-DC charger. However it works with all types of alternator, including non-intelligent standard alternators.

Bit pricey though !

Victron Energy 50A Buck-Boost DC-DC Converter - ORI303050000

Victron Energy - 50A Buck-Boost DC/DC converter - ORI303050000 DC-DC Converter for charging a 12/24V service battery in vehicles with an…

batterygroup.co.uk

 

[TheCaller]

Bit pricey though !

Victron Energy 50A Buck-Boost DC-DC Converter - ORI303050000

Victron Energy - 50A Buck-Boost DC/DC converter - ORI303050000 DC-DC Converter for charging a 12/24V service battery in vehicles with an…

batterygroup.co.uk

That's not the one RogerIvy means. Victron are just introducing a new Orion version, which now does what the older Orion should have done all the time! It will be a bit more than the existing 30A Orion, but includes a lot more facilities, as well as the additional 20A output. Looks like being a good bit of kit.

See orion-xs-12-12-50a

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