Replace AGM Batteries w Lithium or Gel?

[gerry mcg]

@gerrymcg in Post #7 said £1199, and if you wander over to Stourport, Neal fits the battery FOC. One thing I forgot to mention, my Lead Acid Battery was 190mm tall, but the Lithium is 215mm,so had to raise the brackets in the seating area [more swearing and scraped knuckles ...]

Steve

the dimensions shown on the website tech sheets are
270mm side to side,
330mm fore and aft
180mm tall (not 215mm)
vs
2x LFA95 at
345mm front to rear
345mm side to side
195mm tall

are you sure they are 215mm tall?

 

[davidroxburgh]

I think marchie did not go for the underseat battery - indeed I think LS Energy only introduced it in their product line about Easter?

 

[deleted79651]

the dimensions shown on the website tech sheets are
270mm side to side,
330mm fore and aft
180mm tall (not 215mm)
vs
2x LFA95 at
345mm front to rear
345mm side to side
195mm tall

are you sure they are 215mm tall?
View attachment 544749

Mine is the 120Ah version and dimensions from KS Energy website are L330*W170*H215mm. The overall box height in Brunhilde is around 250mm, with an internal shelf at around 190mm so had to raise the shelf supports.

Steve

 

[gerry mcg]

Mine is the 120Ah version and dimensions from KS Energy website are L330*W170*H215mm. The overall box height in Brunhilde is around 250mm, with an internal shelf at around 190mm so had to raise the shelf supports.

Steve

AhI I misunderstood
thanks for the clarification.

 

[MichaelT]

So I fixed the battery in this morning and put seat back. Ran engine and at 2000 rpm got 23a coming in. Will try EHU tomorrow morning.

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[Millcourt]

Interesting that you managed a 23 amp rate of charge without a B2B MichaelT. The rate of charge will obviously reduce when the Lithium battery is nearing a full charge whether from alternator, solar or EHU. I was wondering how long your test was ran. My experience with our 2 Lithium batteries before fitting the B2B was that under engine the charge rate to the leisure bank fell off quite rapidly once the relatively small drain on the engine battery needed to start had been replenished. I fitted a 25 amp B2B (thought about a 40 amp model, but not enough space under the Campscout passenger seat with the EBL and solar regulator and also thought it may be unwise to put a heavier load on the alternator for an extended period when driving) and found that when at a little over tick-over speed there is a consistent input of 25 amps to the lithium batteries until they reach a high state of charge.

I think it may be a more revealing test to see if the absence of a B2B is really significant by running your leisure battery down to 50% or less (so that the battery management system is not restricting the level of charging current) and go for a long run to see if the charge input falls after a short while (I.e. once the engine battery is back up to a near full charge, which should not take long) and to determine how many hours driving it takes to achieve a full charge (or at least 90%+) with your lithium battery.

I recall you mentioned earlier in this thread that you had fitted a 200ah lithium battery. If you set out with this depleted to 50% you will need to put back in around 100ah. At a charge rate of (say) 25 amps, this will take some 4 hours driving to fully restore the charge to 100%. Will be interested to learn if this is achieved without a B2B…… in which case I will have wasted my time and cash in fitting one!

 

[MichaelT]

Interesting that you managed a 23 amp rate of charge without a B2B MichaelT. The rate of charge will obviously reduce when the Lithium battery is nearing a full charge whether from alternator, solar or EHU. I was wondering how long your test was ran. My experience with our 2 Lithium batteries before fitting the B2B was that under engine the charge rate to the leisure bank fell off quite rapidly once the relatively small drain on the engine battery needed to start had been replenished. I fitted a 25 amp B2B (thought about a 40 amp model, but not enough space under the Campscout passenger seat with the EBL and solar regulator and also thought it may be unwise to put a heavier load on the alternator for an extended period when driving) and found that when at a little over tick-over speed there is a consistent input of 25 amps to the lithium batteries until they reach a high state of charge.

I think it may be a more revealing test to see if the absence of a B2B is really significant by running your leisure battery down to 50% or less (so that the battery management system is not restricting the level of charging current) and go for a long run to see if the charge input falls after a short while (I.e. once the engine battery is back up to a near full charge, which should not take long) and to determine how many hours driving it takes to achieve a full charge (or at least 90%+) with your lithium battery.

I recall you mentioned earlier in this thread that you had fitted a 200ah lithium battery. If you set out with this depleted to 50% you will need to put back in around 100ah. At a charge rate of (say) 25 amps, this will take some 4 hours driving to fully restore the charge to 100%. Will be interested to learn if this is achieved without a B2B…… in which case I will have wasted my time and cash in fitting one!

It was only a short test sitting on the drive so I agree need to see on a longer run which we will in a couple of weeks time. As I said I am hoping solar will do the lions share and driving just to top up.

 

[deleted79651]

It was only a short test sitting on the drive so I agree need to see on a longer run which we will in a couple of weeks time. As I said I am hoping solar will do the lions share and driving just to top up.

We had the 120Ah Lithium Battery fitted at KS Energy in Stourport on a late afternoon in mid July. SOC reached a touch over 60% before the solar panel went to sleep that night, and, IIRC, we started at about 60% the following morning after using water pump and relifting the drop down bed. Drove to the Woodside Rally, about 70 miles journey, and around 2 hours running time, including the slow crawl to get to the M5 South [plus a fuel refill in Stourport] and a further crawl along the M4, and we were fully charged when we reached the site.

Steve

 

[MichaelT]

We had the 120Ah Lithium Battery fitted at KS Energy in Stourport on a late afternoon in mid July. SOC reached a touch over 60% before the solar panel went to sleep that night, and, IIRC, we started at about 60% the following morning after using water pump and relifting the drop down bed. Drove to the Woodside Rally, about 70miles journey, and around 2 hours running time, including the slow crawl to get to the M5 South [plus a fuel refill in Stourport] and a further crawl along the M4, and we were fully charged when we reached the site.

Steve

So as Millcourt said as mine is 200ah at 50% likely to be 3-4 hours to charge from 50%.

 

[gerry mcg]

it sound like it is worth trying without a (small) B2B in the first instance and seeing how the Alternator only performs, and then if required, look at getting a meaty one like a Sterling 60A, Votronic 50A or Shaudt 45A one

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[MichaelT]

it sound like it is worth trying without a (small) B2B in the first instance and seeing how the Alternator only performs, and then if required, look at getting a meaty one like a Sterling 60A, Votronic 50A or Shaudt 45A one

That was my thoughts.

 

[deleted79651]

Unexpected bonus from the switch to Lithium! The Central Heating Engineer, a keen caravanner, visited this morning to carry out the Annual Boiler Service and repair a slight radiator 'weep'. He mentioned that his Leisure Battery was dying in instalments, so I asked him if he would like the Leisure Battery that was supplied new with Brunhilde in April this year. 'Yes, and if it's OK with you, I won't charge you for the service'.
Result!

That transaction has recouped about 10% of the Lithium Battery cost!

Steve

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Unexpected bonus from the switch to Lithium! The Central Heating Engineer, a keen caravanner, visited this morning to carry out the Annual Boiler Service and repair a slight radiator 'weep'. He mentioned that his Leisure Battery was dying in instalments, so I asked him if he would like the Leisure Battery that was supplied new with Brunhilde in April this year. 'Yes, and if it's OK with you, I won't charge you for the service'.
Result!

That transaction has recouped about 10% of the Lithium Battery cost!

Steve

As that old saying goes, "money goes to money" , lottery ticket?
Mike

 

[davidroxburgh]

In case you were thinking of the Votronic 1212-50 Road Pro were told that new stock wold not arrive until Spring next year. I decided to buy the 1212-30 because it was in stock it was (relatively) reasonable, my other stuff is votronic and also I read DBK who made a comment that perhaps 30A is adequate. It will I hope fit into the underseat compartment with my votronic solar regulator.

I had a gut feeling that perhaps 50A could be too much - but as confessed in another thread perhaps a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Underseat battery to be fitted in 10 days and B2B 2 weeks after that.

 

[MichaelT]

So update on my battery. it was 93% charged last night with 13.38 volts, down to 90% this morning with a draw of around 0.2/3a. Plugged in to mains and got 17.3a so soon up to 100% after a couple of hours but still charging.

Contacted KS Energy who recommended I set the charger to Lead Acid not Gel per a recommendation from here and the battery needs to charge and discharge a few times for BMS to adjust but it would cut out any charging once 14.2v reached.

So I am all good to go just need to use it. We are off next week but have EHU so will try and get a weekend away off grid soon to really test it out and see how it performs.

Email from Neal at KS
The state of charge (fuel gauge indicator) this is variable and self-calibrates during use and needs to see deep discharge cycles maintain accuracy. Once the battery cells are full the charged current will tail off and the charger will revert to its float status.

The GEL has a longer absorption time which is unnecessary. The battery will essentially be fully charged once its voltages reach over about 14.2V If the charger were to try drag it much higher battery BMS would disconnect charge itself.

It does not need float charge but its fine to leave on hook up on site for a few weeks during use. Avoid leaving it on float permanently eg. on driveway over winter etc.

Nothing else to consider really

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[Raul]

it sound like it is worth trying without a (small) B2B in the first instance and seeing how the Alternator only performs, and then if required, look at getting a meaty one like a Sterling 60A, Votronic 50A or Shaudt 45A one

You need the B2B to limit the charge, not increase it. This is to protect your alternator. If fitted directly with just the cables, a slight discharged Li, can burn out your alternator when you coast or idle. When you not moving much it doesn’t get the cooling, and the low resistance of Li, it’s capable to gobble all the alternator can give.

 

[davidroxburgh]

Raul I would appreciate your detailed comment on the B2B. My conclusion is that after getting the 200Ah lithium underseat battery like Michael, I will have the 1212-30 fitted as I will feel safer. Your comment reinforced my feeling but although I am good at research my technical expertise is zero. Classic example of " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

We have a Westfalia Columbus - and will use the van after the Lithium is installed for 10 days so it gets a good work out and I get some experience with the BMS Bluetooth app. I was thinking I would avoid mains hook up as the existing charger is for AGM at 15V where the lithium wants 14.4 V charging.

Replacing the mains charger will be tricky because of space limits - PVC only! The German firm say they could reprogram the mains charger for lithium but I would have to post it to Germany etc etc.

Any comments/advice appreciated. David

 

[gerry mcg]

We have a Westfalia Columbus - ..... the existing charger is for AGM at 15V where the lithium wants 14.4 V charging.

what charger do you have? does it not have different battery profiles?
e.g. with the Schaudt EBL 119, you can select lead - gel or AGM with different charge voltages-
the lead-gel is (whilst not ideal), OK for Lithium

 

[davidroxburgh]

No Westfalia have kit that is often made for them. Hence the charger is for AGM only, although if I sent the charger back to Germany they could reprogram it for Lithium but unless we can divert via the firm I suspect that would not be economic. The firm are Industrie Electronic Brilon (IEB)

Westfalia do not use Schaudt or CBE at all. Hence the need to get to grips with exactly what we have before I can tweak! David

 

[davidroxburgh]

Raul I have found in the KS spec the following "Battery Over charge Disconnect Protection - cell bank disconnect >3.80V charge resumes .43". Cells are 2670 cylindrical 3.2V 4000mAh Arrangement: 4S*50P.

In English does that mean if the alternator was putting massive power in i.e. massive power being pulled in from the alternator which I believe could do 140V, say when standing at lights, the BMS would protect adequately or is that why the B2B is wise? David

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[gerry mcg]

Do you mean 140V or 140A?
I guess the B2B is the first line of defence, with the BMS being the safely net.
And Better with two tiers of protection

 

[davidroxburgh]

I have a feeling I should have said 140A? Yes I do instinctively feel in favour of better protection. This probably because I am not technical so want to err on the side of safety.

 

[Raul]

You can control the voltage, ( the alternator does), but not the amperage, this is where the B2B comes in. It’s a buck-boost dc-dc converter, and limits power in power out, until battery being charged slowly rises and throttles back. If you would raise the voltage out, it will keep on going until set voltage is reached.
In regards with the other ehu charger, the voltage is to high, despite bms disconnects at 3,8v per cell. That’s just to high, you wanna charge at 14,4v max, and have the bms as a fail safe in case your equipment goes south. Any time spent at high voltage does damage, hence most does not fully charge to increase life span. Also high voltage means high charging rate to the top, no time for balancing.

 

[davidroxburgh]

@ Raul thank you. So If I stick to present plans I would have the new battery installed on 18 October and do 10 days in Scotland. I could I think avoid EHU but the issue remains of the effect of high charging from the split charge relay that the BMS does not adequately protect from? I imagine the BMS will help me as to the status of the new lithium and perhaps I could ensure the new battery is fully charged on fitting, so only one nights use would need topping up, unless the 200W solar and the solar regulator with Li setting helped ameliorate the issue? mind you I guess not much sun in Scotland in October?

Given that the B2B will be fitted soon after the 10 days away - is it too much of a risk to contemplate as otherwise i must either delay the new battery or just collect it and ask the chap who will fit the B2B to fit the battery. Stupid but I was quite excited at getting the new lithium fitted!

 

[MichaelT]

@ Raul thank you. So If I stick to present plans I would have the new battery installed on 18 October and do 10 days in Scotland. I could I think avoid EHU but the issue remains of the effect of high charging from the split charge relay that the BMS does not adequately protect from? I imagine the BMS will help me as to the status of the new lithium and perhaps I could ensure the new battery is fully charged on fitting, so only one nights use would need topping up, unless the 200W solar and the solar regulator with Li setting helped ameliorate the issue? mind you I guess not much sun in Scotland in October?

Given that the B2B will be fitted soon after the 10 days away - is it too much of a risk to contemplate as otherwise i must either delay the new battery or just collect it and ask the chap who will fit the B2B to fit the battery. Stupid but I was quite excited at getting the new lithium fitted!

See my post above from Neal @KS I would suck it and see how you get on as many on here have not gone the B2B route and they have all been OK

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[RowleyBirkinQC]

We went at it the other way round, when the van was new we had B2B installed (along with solar) in preparation for when the then new AGM batteries need changing to lithium.

 

[Raul]

@ Raul thank you. So If I stick to present plans I would have the new battery installed on 18 October and do 10 days in Scotland. I could I think avoid EHU but the issue remains of the effect of high charging from the split charge relay that the BMS does not adequately protect from? I imagine the BMS will help me as to the status of the new lithium and perhaps I could ensure the new battery is fully charged on fitting, so only one nights use would need topping up, unless the 200W solar and the solar regulator with Li setting helped ameliorate the issue? mind you I guess not much sun in Scotland in October?

Given that the B2B will be fitted soon after the 10 days away - is it too much of a risk to contemplate as otherwise i must either delay the new battery or just collect it and ask the chap who will fit the B2B to fit the battery. Stupid but I was quite excited at getting the new lithium fitted!

The charging issue with a standard split relay, it’s all down to your wiring conditions. Some undersized wires will work in your favour as will have some voltage drop and no boost. It could work, if alternator is chugging loads, a very crude way of charging a expensive Li battery. There is a good reason for a B2B. Victron posted a video on YouTube on their Chanel, demonstrating how a alternator can fry up without a B2B.

 

[gerry mcg]

 

[MichaelT]

Been posted before, a simple advert for their new B2B, there is no airflow over the alternator to cool etc so taken with a pinch of salt. How do we know with standard batteries this does not happen? No one sits for hours with engine running without moving which will cool plus once batteries charged there will be no load same as LA battery?

KS Energy did same sort of thing with their battery and no adverse impacts...

 

[gerry mcg]

If i understand correctly from watching the videos above, the video poster seems to infer the Victron video showing alternator burnout at an idling 1500rpm due to inadequate cooling under estimates the actual alternator speed at idle - due to a 3:1 pully reduction, so at 8-900rpm engine file speed would actually result in a 2,400-2700rpm alternator speed, with a fiat Ducati alternator pushing out up to 150A at full revs.(but more realistically approx 70 -100A.

he suggests the B2B is not required for lithium battery charging in non smart alternator equiped vehicles, however the charged voltage of a lithium battery (13.3v) is too high to allow a normal split charge relay to close, therefore the lithium battery would end up trickle charging the AGM starter battery, that is sitting at 12.4v, ultimately discharging the Lithium battery.

his solution was to install a Argofet 200-2 battery isolator to disconnect the Lithium battery once the alternator i / engine is turned off
https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Argo-Fet-Battery-Isolators-with-alternator-energize-input-EN.pdf

discuss!

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