Reich E-Box (Burstner) — electrics overhead message 🥲 (1 Viewer)

[ItaMotorhomer]

Morning,

Here is another problem/question

First of all thanks so much to all the VERY helpful members who replied to our previous threads while we try to sort few problems with our new-to us Burstner T-star.

So here is the next problem, the 2005 Burstner is fitted with a reich e-box (I believe this to be the E-box 1 model).

The problem we have is when we drive with the 12V fridge on, most times when we arrive on sites and switch on the electrics via the small display we get a message saying electrics overheat and cannot use the electrics for a while (I believe until the box cools down?).

The Motorhome had a separate mains charger fitted (Sargent 3 stage mains charger), I believe by the previous owners .

We were thinking/hoping to upgrade the current battery to lithium (2 x 100AH) and fit solar panels via Victron MPPT + a Victron DC to DC charger & new Victron mains charger. Will this work with the E-Box or will it just make it overheat and possibly damage the unit ?

Is there a way we can wire all this without effecting the E-Box?

Also is there a fix for using the 12V fridge while driving without overheating the e-box?

Thank you so much in advance

 

[autorouter]

I think others will confirm that the Reich E-box does not usually overheat in normal use. I suggest there is a fault somewhere causing it to overheat.

If there is a loose connection, a bad wiring joint or a badly soldered component on the circuit board, there will be a bit of extra resistance at that point. The extra resistance will mean that some heat is produced in the resistance, instead of in the fridge heating element as is intended. Unfortunately the heat in the resistance often makes the resistance worse, producing even more heat.

So it's a good idea to trace the wiring path from the alternator/starter battery through the Reich E-box to the fridge element. A multimeter can be used for this. You can either look for excessive voltage drop while the engine is running, or excessive resistance when the engine is stopped and the power disconnected.

It could be anything, maybe as simple as a screw terminal that needs to be tightened, maybe as complicated as a dry solder joint on the board that needs resoldering, or a dozen other possibilities.

 

[jockaneezer]

When we got our '05 plate T680, the fridge stopped working on 12 volts and it was the push on Lucar connectors on the XBox that had burned out. We took it back to the dealer who fitted a new box at a cost of a few hundred pounds and as newbs, we though that was that, but a year or so later, it did the same to the new box. I got Apuljak to repair it as it was out of warranty and since then, we tend not to run the fridge on 12 volts for too long, in fact, we often run it on gas while driving ( appreciate the risks 're fueling up etc)
It would seem the circuit board isn't up to supplying the needs of the fridge when on 12volts for a prolonged period ?
When we bought the van at 5 years old, the previous owner had scribbled a note in the eBox handbook asking "WHY" with a load of question marks after it next to the over temp note, I think it must be down to the fridge's 12 volt supply overheating the unit ?
Here's a pic of the reverse side of the old circuit board showing the heat damage. The push on spade terminals are on the other side.

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

morning

I have seen other posts online

When we got our '05 plate T680, the fridge stopped working on 12 volts and it was the push on Lucar connectors on the XBox that had burned out. We took it back to the dealer who fitted a new box at a cost of a few hundred pounds and as newbs, we though that was that, but a year or so later, it did the same to the new box. I got Apuljak to repair it as it was out of warranty and since then, we tend not to run the fridge on 12 volts for too long, in fact, we often run it on gas while driving ( appreciate the risks 're fueling up etc)
It would seem the circuit board isn't up to supplying the needs of the fridge when on 12volts for a prolonged period ?
When we bought the van at 5 years old, the previous owner had scribbled a note in the eBox handbook asking "WHY" with a load of question marks after it next to the over temp note, I think it must be down to the fridge's 12 volt supply overheating the unit ?
Here's a pic of the reverse side of the old circuit board showing the heat damage. The push on spade terminals are on the other side.
View attachment 937308

morning

Thanks so much fior your very kind reply

I have just emailed Apuljak and just had a reply from them stating pretty much the same as you (see below):
-The over-heating issue is a common problem with the E-Box itself. After an extended drive, the circuits which route power from the alternator to the fridge become very warm and occasionally burn out in more extreme circumstances. The E-Box has a temperature sensor which identifies this and gives the warning that you are seeing. This is something that we have repaired many times, and part of the repair we reinforce that circuit to better handle the heat being generated. It does not remove the possibility of you seeing the warning, but it does make the circuit more robust, which helps to dissipate the heat.

So I guess the best way around this is, NOT TO USE THE 12V fridge Function

OR, if possible having the 12v fridge re-wire in a way that it bypasses the E-Box?

We were hoping to have 2x 100ah lithium batteries fitted together with 2x 175w solar panels cia Victron MPPT + Victron DC to DC charger.

Do you or anyone know if this is possible or if it will potentially effect/damage the E-Box?

Thank you

 

[autorouter]

A standard sized fridge takes about 10A for the 12V element, but a large fridge takes about 14A to 15A. Mine takes 14.4A. These 1/4 inch spade terminals are getting close to their amps limit. And the circuit board tracks don't look substantial enough. Maybe the board was designed and tested for the 10A fridges, but pressed into service for the 15A ones.

I think if it was mine, I'd look at wiring a relay for the fridge amps outside the E-box. Then just use the supply through the E-box to trigger the new relay, needing only a very small current. So the main current would not go into or out of the E-box.

Edit: just seen your reply above. From what Apuljack said, it looks like an external fridge relay is the best option long-term. Connect to the starter battery feed, add a 20A fuse and a standard 30A relay, and trigger the relay from the fridge output of the E-box. That way the main fridge current will bypass the E-box internal wiring, and only a very small trigger current will be used from the E-box, not enough to cause any overheating problems.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

A standard sized fridge takes about 10A for the 12V element, but a large fridge takes about 14A to 15A. Mine takes 14.4A. These 1/4 inch spade terminals are getting close to their amps limit. And the circuit board tracks don't look substantial enough. Maybe the board was designed and tested for the 10A fridges, but pressed into service for the 15A ones.

I think if it was mine, I'd look at wiring a relay for the fridge amps outside the E-box. Then just use the supply through the E-box to trigger the new relay, needing only a very small current. So the main current would not go into or out of the E-box.

Wow that sounds quite a solution!

Unfortunately all way over my pay grade

I’d need to get someone who knows what he’s doing possibly looking at doing this for us.

Thanks

 

[jockaneezer]

ItaMotorhomer, as autorouter says, I did consider wiring in a relay fed from the fridge terminals, but took the lazy option of just running on gas on long journeys and leaving the fridge switched off on shorter ones.
It would be a relatively easy job to hook up a small 30amp automotive relay to the Lucar terminals and take the main supply from the bigger brass studs further along the board, which import the feed from the alternator ?
Here's a pic of the same board from the other side, showing that bigger supply terminals.

 

[autorouter]

If you are thinking of fitting a DC-DC charger, then that will probably require new wiring from the starter battery and the leisure battery. It would be quite easy, I think, to add the feed for the fridge relay at that point. Anyone who can wire in the DC-DC charger will be able to do that, if you show them the comments from Apuljack and suggestions from myself and jockaneezer .

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

If you are thinking of fitting a DC-DC charger, then that will probably require new wiring from the starter battery and the leisure battery. It would be quite easy, I think, to add the feed for the fridge relay at that point. Anyone who can wire in the DC-DC charger will be able to do that, if you show them the comments from Apuljack and suggestions from myself and jockaneezer .

Thanks so much to both of you autorouter & jockaneezer , very very helpful and knowledgeable replies!

we were trying to understand if we are safe to fit lithium batteries (possibly 2x100 AH) and solar + DC to DC with this E-Box.

As from what a read online from the below website:

Reich e-Box Battery Charger Sales and Repairs for Burstner Motorhomes

Burstner Reich e-Box Battery Charger Repairs and Sales. Reich E-Box for sale at £290. Repairs from £190. Guaranteed. reich e-box II at £490

www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk

Which states:
The e-Box I is a very compact design. It is only a 16 amp charger designed for a battery bank of just 160Ah (using the guideline of 10 times the output). An allowance must be made for the Starter battery which the unit also charges. So if you already have a 90Ah starter battery, a single 90Ah Habitation is about its reliable limit.

It was designed by Reich to have a supplementry charger added, via the spare centre socket, if any more batteries were added, but this was rarely done when additional batteries were put in.

We have seen few Reich e-Box equipped Burstners with a Habitation Battery bank less than 200Ah + the 90Ah Starter Battery so it is not surprising so many e-Box units buckle under the load.

Leaving the unit permanently on EHU charge while in storage also significantly shortens this units life more than any other charger, as well as running up a Mains electricity bill. Obviously the battery life will also be shortened.

Solar Power and the Reich e-Box go together well, it will help extend the units life. However, the proviso on the habitation battery bank size still applies, we strongly suggest you do not go over a single 100Ah Habitation Battery without extra charger units. You also need to ensure the Alternator, and the wiring from it, will cope with a bigger battery bank.



The quality of the batteries in the battery bank is also crucial, they must be high quality and young.

​

Reich improved the e-Box I design with the E-Box I PLUS which has a separate 20A charger. ​

Could this be the reason why possibly the previous owner fitted an external mains chargers (Sargent)?

Is there a possibility/way to bypass the E-Box (if needed) with the mains charger & lithium batteries so not to possibly effect/damage the unit ?

Thanks
Again

 

[autorouter]

We were thinking/hoping to upgrade the current battery to lithium (2 x 100AH) and fit solar panels via Victron MPPT + a Victron DC to DC charger & new Victron mains charger.

I think if you are going to fit 200Ah of lithium then a new lithium-compatible mains charger like a Victron would be the best thing. The Victrons are industrial-grade units that will charge 24/7/365 without blinking. You can disable the charger in the E-box and stop worrying.

There's two views on mains charging. Usually if you are on hookup, it's for 12 hours minimum, so a smaller charger like a 15A will be well capable of filling the batteries in that time. But if you find yourself in a situation where you want to charge as fast as possible - parked outside the house on the way from storage for example - then a faster mains charger may be a good idea. The lithiums will certainly take any size of mains charger without a problem.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ianp]

I read your post with some interest as we too are thinking of installing a couple of lithium batteries and the associated 'blue' boxes.....the only additional one to yourself, in our case, being a multiplus charger / inverter. At that point it strikes me that the original control/ distribution box (in our case an EBL99) becomes redundant and can be replaced by the inclusion of a dozen low power fuse holders as part of the upgrade process, to replicate the box's 'distribution' function.......!
Have I forgotten anything that the EBL does that makes its retention essential does anyone think?

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

I think if you are going to fit 200Ah of lithium then a new lithium-compatible mains charger like a Victron would be the best thing. The Victrons are industrial-grade units that will charge 24/7/365 without blinking. You can disable the charger in the E-box and stop worrying.

There's two views on mains charging. Usually if you are on hookup, it's for 12 hours minimum, so a smaller charger like a 15A will be well capable of filling the batteries in that time. But if you find yourself in a situation where you want to charge as fast as possible - parked outside the house on the way from storage for example - then a faster mains charger may be a good idea. The lithiums will certainly take any size of mains charger without a problem.

Thanks autorouter for your VERY helpful advice, we very much appreciated it

Yes the upgrade with had in mind was:

• either 2x 100ah or 1x 200 ah lithium battery
• 2x 175W solar panels with Victron smart solar MPPT
• Victron Orion XS DC-DC
• new Victron IP22 mains charger

BUT before we go ahead and after experiencing the overheating problem with the 12V fridge & then readings all the posts regarding the possible problems with this E-Box unit we wanted to make sure it was doable, safe e worth the cost of installing such a system.

We are definitely going to try and sort the 12v fridge problem with the solution you suggested and definitely disable the mains charger on the E-Box unit.

We just need to find a reputable firm/installer if anyone has any suggestions please feel free.

Thanks everyone for your invaluable help! & support!

 

[autorouter]

I read your post with some interest as we too are thinking of installing a couple of lithium batteries and the associated 'blue' boxes.....the only additional one to yourself, in our case, being a multiplus charger / inverter. At that point it strikes me that the original control/ distribution box (in our case an EBL99) becomes redundant and can be replaced by the inclusion of a dozen low power fuse holders as part of the upgrade process, to replicate the box's 'distribution' function.......!
Have I forgotten anything that the EBL does that makes its retention essential does anyone think?

If you are fitting all that kit, then the charging side of the EBL becomes redundant. as you say. The other side, the 12V distribution, could be imitated with a set of 12V fuses, as you say. But there's a lot of detail in doing that, it includes supply of the heating control board, fridge control board, pump etc, and also the fridge 12V heater element relay switching when the engine is running. Sure, if it got damaged beyond repair you could rebuild all that functionality with a fusebox or two and much stripping and crimping, but I think if it works OK then just leave it to do its job.

 

[mitzimad]

ive taken the fridge feed off the box and joined it to the leisure battery feed which has eliminated the overheating problemthe relay for switching to 12v is on the rear of the fridge so i dont see why the feed is from the box

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

ive taken the fridge feed off the box and joined it to the leisure battery feed which has eliminated the overheating problemthe relay for switching to 12v is on the rear of the fridge so i dont see why the feed is from the box

Thanks for sharing that

I’m now thinking if lithium is actually a good idea?

I’ve just read that the box will shut down if it sense the battery drops below 11V so there’s no really an advantage to lithium?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[autorouter]

I’m now thinking if lithium is actually a good idea?

I’ve just read that the box will shut down if it sense the battery drops below 11V so there’s no really an advantage to lithium?

I'm not sure why you think that would be a problem. It will only shut down if the lithium battery goes below 11V, by which point it will be below 10%. But lithium can be taken that low without too much of a problem, I think. Of course it's better generally to not let it go lower than about 20%, but I don't think it is damaged at 10%. And there are other huge advantages to lithium. Not least that it can be left indefinitely in a partially charged state without any deterioration, unlike a lead-acid-based battery.

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

I'm not sure why you think that would be a problem. It will only shut down if the lithium battery goes below 11V, by which point it will be below 10%. But lithium can be taken that low without too much of a problem, I think. Of course it's better generally to not let it go lower than about 20%, but I don't think it is damaged at 10%. And there are other huge advantages to lithium. Not least that it can be left indefinitely in a partially charged state without any deterioration, unlike a lead-acid-based battery.

Sorry my maths didn’t work out that at 11V the battery would be at 10% or below - state of charge

 

[autorouter]

Sorry my maths didn’t work out that at 11V the battery would be at 10% or below - state of charge

Chart for LiFePO4

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

ive taken the fridge feed off the box and joined it to the leisure battery feed which has eliminated the overheating problemthe relay for switching to 12v is on the rear of the fridge so i dont see why the feed is from the box

Hi mitzimad

I was looking at the E-Box earlier trying to figure out which wires feed the fridge but mission failed

I’ve also noted that removing the 20A fridge fuse on the e-box doesn’t stop the fridge from working on the 12V (light on panel still lit and goes green once engine it’s turned on even after removing the fuse )

I’d be definitely getting someone who knows what’s he’s doing to do this modification but in the meantime I’d like to know what wires you’ve used if you’re happy sharing this

Thanks

 

[autorouter]

There's another complication if you're looking at how the fridge is wired. If it's one of those with Automatic Energy Selection (AES) (ie not just manual switching) then there are two different 12V supplies to the fridge.

The Low Current (LC) supply powers the fridge control board, and things like the gas solenoid and ignition. It is usually on a more or less permanent supply from the leisure battery, and is always on whichever energy source is being used.

The High Current (HC) supply powers the 12V fridge heater element only, usually with a 20A fuse, and is usually taken from a feed from the alternator/starter battery, and is often only powered when the engine is running. That's the one that's causing all the problems here.

So the fridge controls and lights etc will function fine even if the HC supply 20A fuse is removed, and I'm sure it will still work on 240V and gas as well.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ItaMotorhomer]

There's another complication if you're looking at how the fridge is wired. If it's one of those with Automatic Energy Selection (AES) (ie not just manual switching) then there are two different 12V supplies to the fridge.

The Low Current (LC) supply powers the fridge control board, and things like the gas solenoid and ignition. It is usually on a more or less permanent supply from the leisure battery, and is always on whichever energy source is being used.

The High Current (HC) supply powers the 12V fridge heater element only, usually with a 20A fuse, and is usually taken from a feed from the alternator/starter battery, and is often only powered when the engine is running. That's the one that's causing all the problems here.

So the fridge controls and lights etc will function fine even if the HC supply 20A fuse is removed, and I'm sure it will still work on 240V and gas as well.

Yea you’re perfectly correct there, yes it has the automatic energy selection function (photos attached for reference).


Thanks for the explanation, it all make sense now