PVC on display at the NEC....too cheap?

[Terry]

Commercial Vans are a massive market. PVCs are a niche market and converters don't place orders for tens of thousands each year. The RHD ones for the UK conversion market are going to be a very small fraction of the overall number. More like hundreds than thousands, and that includes a lot of options that the UK White Van Man doesn't need or want. RHD vans are probably coming off the assembly lines in relatively small batches compared to LHD ones. The number of RHD vans with paint finishes other than Van Man White is a tiny percentage so other colours are done separately in small batches and that adds to cost and delays. Some Fiat colours have got a bad reputation for the paint quality including the notorious flaking roof paint. It might be OK for builders who are less fussy than us.

Hence we get very long lead times for MHs with multiple base vehicle options and body colours to suit individual buyers. I placed an Order in October (NEC) for delivery in the following April that eventually stretched to June handover. That was before Covid when things really went to pot.

Fiat used to have 85% of the market for conversions and it was their policy to target this leisure market with specs to suit converters. After they became part of Stellantis that priority seems to have changed. Now they have only about half the MH market so we can't expect Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen to go the extra mile to defend a dwindling market share. We are a very small part of the overall Stellantis customer base.

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

 

[EuroTrotters]

I quite like the look of the Rimor £56,000 new.

But I would like LHD with Automatic Gearbox £3k ! I would have to knock them down on that price

Rimor Horus 45 2025

motorhomesandcaravansltd.co.uk

 

[Terry]

I may be wrong but seem to recall that the UK motorhome market is maybe 1/5 the size of the German one and maybe half the size of the French one. Then add all the other European countries.

Rounding up, maybe the UK is about 10% of the European motorhome sales?

Then take into account that at least some buyers purchase locally manufactured and marketed products. In the UK maybe half of PVC sales?

So possibly 1 in 20 of the vans produced in Europe are done to RHD spec.

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

 

[The Wino]

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

It's not the worldwide market it's Europe! Also bear in mind that anyone anywhere in the EU can very easily purchase in any country like we could in the past and competition and a mass market is likely to keep prices down

 

[PaulW2]

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

We're only talking about the motorhome market

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[Terry]

We're only talking about the motorhome market

Like all threads it diverged into a slightly different /off topic way

 

[bschaldon]

French, it is Pilote entry level brand.

We looked at a Joa motorhome at the show. Horribly cheap fittings. Walked straight out again.

 

[Nanniemate]

Anyway going back to my 17 year old builders van with beds and a cooker............

 

[EuroTrotters]

We looked at a Joa motorhome at the show. Horribly cheap fittings. Walked straight out again.

Our motorhomes and camper vans l Joa Camp

The 60 years of experience of the Groupe Pilote have been put into our vans and motor homes: durability, solidity, reliability, made in France

www.joa-camp.com

That bad?

 

[Emmit]

Commercial Vans are a massive market. PVCs are a niche market and converters don't place orders for tens of thousands each year. The RHD ones for the UK conversion market are going to be a very small fraction of the overall number. More like hundreds than thousands, and that includes a lot of options that the UK White Van Man doesn't need or want. RHD vans are probably coming off the assembly lines in relatively small batches compared to LHD ones. The number of RHD vans with paint finishes other than Van Man White is a tiny percentage so other colours are done separately in small batches and that adds to cost and delays. Some Fiat colours have got a bad reputation for the paint quality including the notorious flaking roof paint. It might be OK for builders who are less fussy than us.

Hence we get very long lead times for MHs with multiple base vehicle options and body colours to suit individual buyers. I placed an Order in October (NEC) for delivery in the following April that eventually stretched to June handover. That was before Covid when things really went to pot.

Fiat used to have 85% of the market for conversions and it was their policy to target this leisure market with specs to suit converters. After they became part of Stellantis that priority seems to have changed. Now they have only about half the MH market so we can't expect Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen to go the extra mile to defend a dwindling market share. We are a very small part of the overall Stellantis customer base.

You're just about bang on with Fiat having half the market.
Same french PVC mag.
Fiat 47%
Citroen 20% (includes 6% Peugeot)
Ford Transit 18%

Then, there's VW MAN Mercedes and Renault.

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[SpeedyDux]

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

I understood from the sales guy on the dealer stand at the NEC that UK dealers for my make of PVC had a mix of vans allocated to them by the converter for the coming year. A fixed number of off-the-shelf UK spec models in white, that all included a couple of (effectively non-optional) "Packs" on top of the base price; plus a fixed allocation for that upcoming year that could be specced-up with extra cost options, such as metallic paint, more powerful engines, Comfortmatic autobox, alloys, reversing camera and better stereo, half-leather upholstery, etc. etc. A limited RHD allocation, in effect. First come, first served for placing a bespoke Order. Added pressure on the more fussy private buyer!

Whether that kind of rationing reflected the limited number of RHD base vans that Fiat had allocated to the Converters for that year is not known to me. I suspect that could be the case. In effect there could be an overall limit on the number of RHD base vehicles, decided by the managers at (now) Stellantis to make efficient use of the available capacity of their Sevel van factory in Italy, to prioritise more cost-effective LHD production especially for the commercial mass market. Just my theory.

Incidentally, the other important factor behind the way that the Converters fix their annual price lists for the UK RHD market is the fluctuating Sterling / Euro exchange rate. In October 2016 I understood that a fixed rate of £1 / 1,19 Euro rate was used for the new 2017 price list. When the Converter takes on the exchange rate risk in order to provide price certainty for UK dealers and buyers, that obviously can inflate UK list prices when compared to the lower list prices seen on the continent by Funsters. Some EU dealers adopt a different approach allowing the UK buyer to pay in Euros on delivery day. The currency exchange rate risk transfers to the buyer. I think it is more common in the UK market for there to be a Converter's fixed retail list price for that year shown in Sterling. The UK dealer may guarantee that the agreed Sterling price shown on the Order will not change before delivery day, however long the delay. Either way, we UK buyers are very likely to be paying a premium in return for the comfort of price certainty.

 

[Coolcats]

If you are unfortunate enough to crash, occupants of a PVC will probably have better chances of emerging unscathed than occupants of a coachbuilt especially many A-Class ones. There are horrendous photos of comprehensively demolished coachbuilts on the interwebby. Stay safe!

That’s an interesting notion, but don’t forget the energy dissipated by an A Class being destroyed in an accident may just save your life. It’s complex but it’s also why crumple zones help to save lives

 

[SpeedyDux]

That’s an interesting notion, but don’t forget the energy dissipated by an A Class being destroyed in an accident may just save your life. It’s complex but it’s also why crumple zones help to save lives

I am not convinced that complete self-disassembly in the event of a crash is a safety feature by design.

Hardly any coachbuilts have been crash-tested. NCAP ratings ... don't even ask.

 

[Coolcats]

I am not convinced that complete self-disassembly in the event of a crash is a safety feature by design.

Hardly any coachbuilts have been crash-tested. NCAP ratings ... don't even ask.

not disagreeing with you, one thing in the early ish days of Lotus they were finding some drivers and passengers were surviving crashes which if the car had been made from steel would have killed them. The thought being the energy dissipated by the destruction of the fibreglass body help people to survive.

 

[Beltie]

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

As far as I know, the only British based van maker is Vauxhall, also producing under Nissan/Renault names. They represent a tiny proportion of the UK motorhome market.

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[Peppadog]

A panel van is an original manufacturer design. A coachbuilt or integrated motorhome is not. The van is likely to come off best. But that assumes all the fittings and furniture stay where fixed. I would doubt that in all types. Having the vehicles internal contents flying through the windscreen in a head on collision, and taking you with it, is unlikely to be good for our health. Airbags will also be useless in that scenario.

 

[Peppadog]

As far as I know, the only British based van maker is Vauxhall, also producing under Nissan/Renault names. They represent a tiny proportion of the UK motorhome market.

Yes. I think thats right now that Ford no longer make Transit’s here.
Much of the van output from the Elsmere Port factory is exported. So unless they are going to other RHD countries like Australia, NZ, South Africa etc. they will be LHD.

I don’t think there is much if any cost solely related to factory RHD / LHD costs. They are designed in features like in cars, which can nowadays have one of each going down the production lines.
Additionally, most German van conversions still fit a LHD layout in the van regardless of which side the steering wheel is. There is no cost difference there either!

 

[Dorwyn]

Going back to the OP's title of the thread, I was thinking how can it be too cheap? How manufacturers price it is down to their marketing. Loss leaders is a common practice. The finish is down to the build quality at the manufacturing department, fittings down to the cheap parts they all use. My previous AT/Trigano/?Roller Team? PVC was of very good build quality, yet the cheapest of the line. The Malibu at the time was 20k more. It looked very smart, but hardly worth the difference.

 

[Peppadog]

Thats true of almost everything.