Payload Scam: Hymer now, who´s next?

[Roby2008]

Another one in the news here in Germany: Again, no one gets real shit for it, just a large fine and a slap on the wrist, no mention of compensation for those sold unsuitable MHs.

Taken from a news page, excuse the translation.

Hymer from Bad Waldsee has to pay millions of euros due to breaches of supervisory duties by employees. The background was investigations on suspicion of fraud and criminal advertising.

The motorhome manufacturer Hymer from Bad Waldsee (Ravensburg district) has to pay money to the state as part of a so-called confiscation order because employees have violated their duty of supervision. This was confirmed by the Stuttgart public prosecutor's office to SWR. It was about investigations on suspicion of fraud in connection with weight information in the sale of motorhomes, according to a spokeswoman for the public prosecutor's office.

Hymer is said to have deceived customers

The public prosecutor's office had searched the Hymer headquarters three years ago - according to SWR information because of misleading advertising for motorhomes up to 3.5 tons in weight. The suspicion: Hymer concealed from buyers that the mobiles exceed the permissible total weight even with a low payload.

The public prosecutor's office does not comment on these specific allegations, nor on the form in which employees violated their duty of supervision. The Erwin Hymer Group also says nothing about the details of the allegations. The agreements with the public prosecutor's office are being adhered to, according to a Hymer spokesman.

One thing is certain: The Erwin Hymer Group must pay an amount in the lower double-digit range - money that the company earned through the violations of supervisory duties in connection with weight information, according to the public prosecutor's office. It has discontinued fine proceedings against the responsible Hymer employees.

Heavier motorhomes are unattractive for young customers

The weight limit of up to 3.5 tonnes for motorhomes is important for manufacturers like Hymer if they want to reach young target groups. Since the introduction of EU driving licences in 1999, no vehicle weighing more than 3.5 tonnes may be driven with category B. For heavier motorhomes, younger customers would therefore have to get another driver's license.

​

 

[Jim]

It's challenging to find 3.5t plated motorhomes that have a real-world useable payload. A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

 

[Orion]

The ripples are starting to spread out further from that particular pebble dropped into the manufacturers cosy pond.

What would happen if a consumer (or group action) started legal proceedings against the manufacturer for misleading them, would the ‘evidence’ that is being hidden then have to be brought into play? If it’s that widespread surely it’s time for the EU regulators to get involved?

 

[Pausim]

If it’s that widespread surely it’s time for the EU regulators to get involved?

There are newish EU regulations on minimum payloads. They are not generous payloads but at least they have them. Carthago/Malibu are applying these regulations to their UK sales, it is covered in their brochures.

 

[Jim]

There are newish EU regulations on minimum payloads

They have run rough-shod over long-standing EU regs too.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[busbuddy]

Didn't 'mclouis' or a similar maker sell vans that were over 3.5t as they left the factory back in early 2000s, I seem to recall reading it

 

[Roby2008]

It's challenging to find 3.5t plated motorhomes that have a real-world useable payload. A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

It is a struggle, I am stuck with 3.5, uplating is possible here but only to the Mfr weight, for me, thats 3650 kg, not worth the world of financial pain of a driving test and the need for a GoBox etc to gain 150kg .
We just have to be selective on what we take, we pack as if we are flying, 20kg and keep a eye on the weight, we have a weigh function on the levellers so no weighbridge trips, it´s bike or boat depending where we go.

 

[Jim]

Scratches head: So are there two weight issue things going on? Hymer and Knaus

Does anyone know anymore on the situation occurring with Knaus Tabbart AG

The vehicles involved in the prosecution of Knaus Tabbert AG are vehicles in the weight class up to 3,500 kg. The company is being investigated for allegedly exceeding the maximum weight of these vehicles. Explanation The company is being investigated by the Stuttgart public prosecutor's...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Roby2008]

Didn't 'mclouis' or a similar maker sell vans that were over 3.5t as they left the factory back in early 2000s, I seem to recall reading it

They did, we looked at McLouis early on, quite nice but bare bones, sans solar etc, was still over the mark.

 

[Roby2008]

Scratches head: So are there two weight issue things going on? Hymer and Knaus

Does anyone know anymore on the situation occurring with Knaus Tabbart AG

The vehicles involved in the prosecution of Knaus Tabbert AG are vehicles in the weight class up to 3,500 kg. The company is being investigated for allegedly exceeding the maximum weight of these vehicles. Explanation The company is being investigated by the Stuttgart public prosecutor's...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

There will be more, the end user will still end up with nothing from it, no matter how many get caught out

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jim]

And this one!

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/letter-from-carthago-overweight-van-issue.293098/

 

[MisterB]

[QUOTE=" A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.
[/QUOTE]

I've just gone for 4000kg up plating on that very basis. Going to 3850kg only needed rear air assist but going to 4000kg put around another £400 in the cost for the additional 150kg of weight.

As there is a 5% allowance over weight in the UK (are there similar in the EU?) then 3850kg gives a theoretical accepted allowance of 4004kg, if that includes water being carried then it could be dumped if the motorhome was restricted from driving.

Please note, I am NOT advocating anyone should plan to drive an overweight vehicle, which is why I spent extra to plate ours to 4000kg.

Roby2008 - going to 3650 actually gives you 3850 in the UK before any action is taken against you if you include the 5% overweight allowance, according to UK law, though I don't know how that translates into EU law

 

[martin2603]

Hope this does not arrive on the DVSA /VOSA Desk , they will be sitting with eyes peeled on the WIMS Scales. Clearly profit and lots of it are the first priority for Contintental manufacturers from the Fartherland!! S.d the end user.

 

[Brains]

I have a Hymer.
It's sold as 3500kg, 3850kg and 4100kg.
Same van, same suspension, just a different weight plate.

Ours is 3850kg, and on a weighbridge fully loaded for a 3 week trip (2 people, 2 bikes, food, Quest popup, full fuel, quarter water) we only have about 25kg to play with. A couple of crates of wine could put us over the limit.
I've not weighed our van empty, but I'd guess it's around 3500kg, which means 'real life' use at that weight is not possible.

We met a German couple on a campsite in Italy with an identical van (and even more gear than us!).
Their van was plated at 3500kg.
I asked him what his actual weight was, he had no idea and also had no idea of where to find a weighbridge in Germany.
He was very surprised that I knew my weight, and also knew there was no way his could be under 3500kg

I think there is going to be another "VW emissions" type scandal coming up.
Where tens (hundreds?) of thousands of motorhomes across Europe are found to be overweight/underplated.
And many of the drivers do not have C1 licences.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Dated 2022…

HYMER is allowed to falsify the weight of vehicles? Investigators explain

The Criminal Investigation Department of the federal state of Baden-Württemberg entered the HYMER headquarters in Bad Waldsee this week. In the background, there are irregularities regarding the inaccuracy in the declared weight of vehicles.

camprest.com

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[daveclare]

Germany is a very rule lead society. So I can only assume that owners trust a dealer/manufacturer about payload. So when they say a van is OK at 3.5t they actually belive it.

Whereas we actually know all manufacturers and many dealers prefer to keep stum about payloads, problems and complaints.

 

[DerryW]

It would be so simple for everyone if there was a real world unladen weight ticket attached to every vehicle as it let the manufacturer/ converter’s premises.
Along with a EU standard of of contents making up the unladen weight I.e 10ltrs fresh water and Derv, leisure battery etc.

That way any potential customer could very quickly work out if the particular vehicle was fit for purpose.

 

[Jim]

Germany is a very rule lead society.

Remember the Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche; emissions scandal?

 

[Lenny HB]

When this first came up about Hymer a few years ago I thought it was odd as I have had 3 Hymers and they have all been within a few kilos of the specified weight. It must be just a few models they picked up on.
Although our last van was 4500kg, they did offer it at 3500kg but I've never seen one fore sale at that weight.

The original order for our 4250kg Carthago was cancelled and the only way to get one without waiting a third year was to have a 3500kg one.
Weighed it on the first trip it was 300kg over, just waiting for new V5 uprated to 4000kg.

 

[Lenny HB]

It's challenging to find 3.5t plated motorhomes that have a real-world useable payload. A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

400kg might be OK on a Brit built van but a German one you need at least 600kg as you need to add a lot of extras to bring it up to the same spec.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[daveclare]

remember I said the society. Not the manufacturers.

Just follow Germans around Europe keeping to all of the speed limits. Whilst the French, Spanish and Italians wheelspin past.

 

[Jim]

It would be so simple for everyone if there was a real world unladen weight ticket attached to every vehicle as it let the manufacturer/ converter’s premises.
Along with a EU standard of of contents making up the unladen weight I.e 10ltrs fresh water and Derv, leisure battery etc.

That way any potential customer could very quickly work out if the particular vehicle was fit for purpose.

These are the acronyms that the NCC use to inform us about payload. ALM, MTPLM, MRO, CL, MAL, TW, ULW. They need to forget all those and settle on just one. Whether new or used, vehicles for sale by dealers should display just one weight. FW. the Forecourt Weight. What it weighs NOW on the Forecourt.

 

[BusyBuilder]

Chickens are coming home to roost.....oops that'll put em over the limit !!

 

[Puddleduck]

We saw a lovely Euromobile which would have been ideal for us and being sold on commission.

I asked for a weighbridge ticket. It was 300kg over without driver, water etc etc.

 

[daveclare]

I rang the dealer before we bought our van, about payload. An 'A' class plated at 3650. I asked about carrying the Vespa, roughly 150kg. He said no problem.

We then weighed the van, full of water (220lt), scooter, clothes, us etc. Fully loaded for months away. 3990kg's. Suffice to say it's now plated to 4450kg so we have around 900kg of payload.

They've got away with deception for years. How many times had it been said that they need to get their act together and nothing happens. So good on the authorities in Germany for having the balls to do something.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Steve N Tracy]

It's not only the Germans, Autotrail have been selling vans at 3500 kg without a usable payload for years.

 

[Brains]

Many Motorways (and Autobahns, Autostrada, Autoroutes etc) have a government weighbridge at some point along the length, designed to take overweight lorries off the roads.
They are geared up so that the inspectors and the police can weight dozens of lorries per hour on the random location they decide to use on that day.

It might take a few more staff, but opening up a weighbridge on a main holiday route at the start of the school holidays and directing every motorhome to be weighed may give them an idea of the real size of the problem.

There is one at the M25/M20 junction. They could make more in fines in a single hour than it would cost to run for a week!
(Although I suspect the problem is less in the UK, as many have C1 licences and the issue is fairly well known about)

 

[MisterB]

just waiting for new V5 uprated to 4000kg.

I'm in the same position, though I only sent my paperwork off two weeks ago, so I reckon another 5/6 weeks for me ....

 

[Lenny HB]

I'm in the same position, though I only sent my paperwork off two weeks ago, so I reckon another 5/6 weeks for me ....

Only sent mine last Friday, last time I uprated a van paperwork came back in 2 weeks but they got it wrong and took 4 months to get it corrected.

 

[Jim]

It's not only the Germans, Autotrail have been selling vans at 3500 kg without a usable payload for years.

They offer a free weight upgrade on most vans which takes people up to a useable payload. But if your licence restricts you to 3.5, then yes, with some of their vans, you'll be travelling light.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}