No earth at electric socket

[Lenny HB]

I got a belt off a 6mm cooker cable on friday, my own fault for not checking it was dead but someone had connected it to a different labelled breaker.

Phase, neutral and earth wires were cut to be extended to a new position so no earth either.

My arm touched the end of the cut cable....heavy duty tingling but didnt hurt as i was stood on fibreglass steps with rubber feet.
THE RCD (NEW 32a/30ms) DID NOT TRIP as there was no neutral or earth.
had they been ally steps i may not be here now.

Nothing to do with no earth , the RCD will only trip when the imbalance is greater than the trip setting, so due to you standing on a insulating surface you would still get a shock but would not trip if the trip was 30ma and only 20ma flowed through you.

 

[pappajohn]

So if one is on the continent where there are (as I understand it ) just two pin sockets, would it be earthed anywhere - i.e. on the hookup outlet? Sorry to be dim, but trying to get to grips with all of this.

Presumably the twin plug adaptor I will need to buy could be inserted either way round? How does the live and neutral work with that?

Unlike a 12v circuit live and neutral are both the same regardless of how they are connected.
we have coloured wires so the installer knows which wire to connect through switchs etc.
all the wires could be black of orange or any other colour but that would mske life harder for the sparky and make mistakes easier.

 

[pappajohn]

So if you stood totally insulated wet your finger and touched the live are you saying it won't trip I think you'll find it will
Your mains lawnmower wired in 2 core cable works outside while plugged into an rcd socket indoors or out and trips if you damage either core

No, im saying with a lack of earth a faulty appliance wont trip....until YOU make the earth connection by touching it.

 

[andy63]

Any imbalance can only go to earth....it has to go somewhere and neutral is its normal path

RCDs operate by measuring the current balance between two conductors using a differential current transformer. This measures the difference between current flowing through the live conductor and that returning through the neutral conductor. If these do not sum to zero, there is a leakage of current to somewhere else (to earth/ground, or to another circuit), and the device will open its contacts. Operation does not require a fault current to return via the earth wire in the installation; the trip will operate just as well if the return path is via plumbing, contact with terra firma or any other current path. Automatic disconnection and a measure of shock protection is therefore still provided even if the earth wiring of the installation is damaged or incomplete.
ta andy

 

[pappajohn]

I give in.......25 years experience in the electrical trade obviously stands for nothing.

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[Techno]

It is designed to trip when only 30 milliamperes is flowing wherever earthed or not and this is well before it can kill you

 

[Techno]

The regs say that there is nor should be any substitute for a proper earthing system
However rcd and rcbo are designed to protect you when and where an earth is faulty missing or whatever

 

[Dolly224]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses. We have an RCD and I will test it. It has already tripped when the polarity was wrong so hopefully we are covered. We knew we had no earth from this little tester plug which hopefully I can show.

 

[Dolly224]

Hopefully you can see the plug we use for testing.

 

[andy63]

So if one is on the continent where there are (as I understand it ) just two pin sockets, would it be earthed anywhere - i.e. on the hookup outlet? Sorry to be dim, but trying to get to grips with all of this.

Presumably the twin plug adaptor I will need to buy could be inserted either way round? How does the live and neutral work with that?

hi, as andys photo above of the two pin plug shows there is an earth contact but not in the form of a pin.. that connects to the supply earth circuit when you connect, regardless of which way round you insert the plug..
if you plug into this type of outlet and your supply is reversed then as long as you can just reverse the plug and you will change the polarity, and no need for a special reverse cable.... there may be some boxes which don't allow you to reverse the plug ,but didn't come across one on my recent visit to spain Portugal.
ta andy

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[pappajohn]

Doesnt it appear odd that european 2 pin plugs can be inserted either way round.

Thats because they dont recognise reversed polarity as a safety issue.....which i agree with.

 

[Lenny HB]

Doesnt it appear odd that european 2 pin plugs can be inserted either way round.

Thats because they dont recognise reversed polarity as a safety issue.....which i agree with.

It because all European outlets are either double pole switched or unswitched, it is UK ones that are dangerous where most socket manufactures only switch the live.

 

[Lenny HB]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses. We have an RCD and I will test it. It has already tripped when the polarity was wrong so hopefully we are covered. We knew we had no earth from this little tester plug which hopefully I can show.

An RCD will not trip on reverse polarity, only a fault when current flows to earth will trip an RCD.
The rest of Europe does not worry about the polarity as all their switches are double pole.

 

[dippingatoe]

So with double pole I need not worry about reverse polarity?

 

[pappajohn]

An RCD will not trip on reverse polarity, only a fault when current flows to earth will trip an RCD.
The rest of Europe does not worry about the polarity as all their switches are double pole.

An rcd WILL trip on reversed polarity.....and i have proved the point.

My garage has a 4 way consumer unit and to prove the point i reversed the phase and neutral incoming tails.

I introduced a deliberate fault to the socket circuit and the RCD main switch tripped.
it tripped due to the earth fault, not an overload.

The RCD monitors for an imbalance....it doesnt care were the phase and neutral are.

Phase and neutral are reversed for 50% of a cycle anyway.

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[pappajohn]

So with double pole I need not worry about reverse polarity?

You dont need to worry about reversed polarity anyway.....the Europeans dont even care.

The only time it can make a difference is when you switch off an appliance to work on it....the live (brown or red) wire remains live....the neutral wire is Switched off Instead.

But...if you only switch off an appliance, instead of unplugging or completely turning off the breaker, to work on it then you deserve to get a shock.

 

[andy63]

So with double pole I need not worry about reverse polarity?

as long as you understand that by double pole its referring to a switch that breaks both live and neutral circuts. which as lennyhb has indicated is not usually the case with uk switches.. so if your polarity is reversed to the van everything will work as normal but just don't go working on anything in the van whilst connected...

just as an aside, my combitronic control panel will not allow me to use 230v for water or van heating if my supply is reversed. it has to see the live on the correct pin to the ecu I suspect... hasn't damaged it but just wont work until I reverse the supply.
ta andy

 

[dippingatoe]

as long as you understand that by double pole its referring to a switch that breaks both live and neutral circuts. which as lennyhb has indicated is not usually the case with uk switches.. so if your polarity is reversed to the van everything will work as normal but just don't go working on anything in the van whilst connected...

just as an aside, my combitronic control panel will not allow me to use 230v for water or van heating if my supply is reversed. it has to see the live on the correct pin to the ecu I suspect... hasn't damaged it but just wont work until I reverse the supply.
ta andy

Don't worry - I won't be working on anything anyway - unless in extremis, and then only with someone competent on the end of the phone to talk me through it

 

[gus-lopez]

It because all European outlets are either double pole switched or unswitched, it is UK ones that are dangerous where most socket manufactures only switch the live.

But not a lot safer when run in aerial cable.

Just a question . Does anyone else get the urge to 'test' whether the RCCB or RCD trips using there fingers? I could never resist it once I knew the trip worked.

 

[tonyidle]

But not a lot safer when run in aerial cable.

Just a question . Does anyone else get the urge to 'test' whether the RCCB or RCD trips using there fingers? I could never resist it once I knew the trip worked.

Yes I did. Still bit me though.

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[scotjimland]

I used to participate in these long technical leccy debates.. then realised there was absolutely no point..

now I just sit back and enjoy the sparks flying ...

 

[Barclaybasher]

But...if you only switch off an appliance, instead of unplugging or completely turning off the breaker, to work on it then you deserve to get a shock.

Found out about double pole the hard way......went to change a light fitting in Spain after only turning off at the light switch.......knocked me off my feet!..... just careless ......learned though - always switch off at the consumer unit breaker

....

 

[Lenny HB]

An rcd WILL trip on reversed polarity.....and i have proved the point.

My garage has a 4 way consumer unit and to prove the point i reversed the phase and neutral incoming tails.

I introduced a deliberate fault to the socket circuit and the RCD main switch tripped.
it tripped due to the earth fault, not an overload.

The RCD monitors for an imbalance....it doesnt care were the phase and neutral are.

Phase and neutral are reversed for 50% of a cycle anyway.

I think you have miss read my post post Pappa, Dolly said the RCD tripped because he had reverse polarity no fault was mentioned, I was pointing out this can not happen. Obviously it will still trip under fault condition regardless of polarity.

 

[jimbow]

we found a site at Roses with no earth - complained - told us to plug in at another box some distance away - but vehicles would have to drive over our cable and other half not happy about that, so they lent us one - with no earth wire at all - in the end we plugged in and relied on the gubbins in the van to trip if there was a problem - it was fine!

 

[mitzimad]

Found out about double pole the hard way......went to change a light fitting in Spain after only turning off at the light switch.......knocked me off my feet!..... just careless ......learned though - always switch off at the consumer unit breaker

....

nothing to do with double pole most lighting circuits are loop in loop out so are always live in the rose / junction box regardless of the switch position

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