New van, should I get an inverter?

[Billylou]

I’ve been trawling through various Inverter threads but I’m still struggling a little to find answers to my particular questions. We are picking up our new van next month and now is the time to specify the bits and bobs. I’m not at all savvy when it comes to all things electrical but “think“ I know what we need.

Currently we have 2 x 95ah AGM batteries, 2 x 185w solar panels, Victron MPPT bluetooth regulator and battery master specified for the new van.

My wife likes the option to dry her hair and as we are not always on hook up it seems having an inverter installed would resolve this and also save us investing in an Ecoflow battery as an example.

We wouldn’t necessarily need all our 230v sockets connected but just 1.

So the questions are.

1. Is this the right way to go?
2. How big should the inverter be?
3. Do I have sufficient battery power?
4. Would a Victron Inverter with an on/off switch be advisable?
5. What don’t I know and what do I need to know?

Many thanks

 

[eddie]

The answer is ignoring the cost

”Why wouldn’t you?”

So given that, you know your financial situation, if it wouldn’t be an issue, get it and keep your wife happy, but if it would financially be a squeeze don’t bother.

 

[lorger]

We fitted a 2000w one last year so we could charge the bikes and the occasional hair drying, we have a 120ah lithium from KS energy and a 180w solar. While in France last September we only had ehu for 3 nights out of 15 and worked brilliant for us, if we charged the bikes up after each cycle we found when we came to charge them again after a day the battery was full.

 

[funflair]

Well "why wouldn't you" to quote Eddie, one reason might be that 2x95ah AGM is not going to like powering an inverter and hairdryer for long unless it can be turned down very low, I think really you need to double your battery capacity or just go for broke and straight to LiFePO4 and inverter, you know you want to and you know she's worth it.

 

[vzac]

Only if you want lots of powerfull electrics then as stated the batteries will need changing. If it's just a hairdryer why not add/ alter a duct from the heater to where she can get blown air free, or tell/ ask/ suggest to her to cut her hair short and use wigs job done.
Have fun.

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[tonka]

I have an almost similar set up..

2 x 95amp Varta wet batteries
2 x solar panels, size unknown as fitted when we bought the van. Would assume 120w each.
Votronic MPPT solar regulator.

I self fitted just an 1100w Kreiger inverter. The wife uses a hair dryer but on the low setting, use a standard toaster at times and now and again a small air fryer for the grandsons chips !!.. Works fine for us.
Would have maybe fitted the 2000w inverter but not enough space where i wanted to place it. Run a cable from this to a single socket inside the motorhome.

You always need to be aware that you can take a lot of power out of your batteries very quickly but need a lot more time to replenish them.
Drying hair or making toast for a few minutes in the mornning at least give you all day for the solar to put something back in.

 

[PeterCarole29]

I think one key note to understand wet lead acid generally unless you use Trojan you only have half the amperage as useable
But lifepro or simular you can use all the amperage

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Well "why wouldn't you" to quote Eddie, one reason might be that 2x95ah AGM is not going to like powering an inverter and hairdryer for long unless it can be turned down very low, I think really you need to double your battery capacity or just go for broke and straight to LiFePO4 and inverter, you know you want to and you know she's worth it.

A box of "Milk Tray " chocolates is cheaper.
Mike

 

[eddie]

I was talking generally about the concept of having an inverter fitted

When I was working, we did all sorts of tests and timings and hair drying takes less time that many people think

a couple of 100ah leisure batteries can cope. I started fitting inverter systems into motorhomes back in the Nineties before Lithium raised its head

Add a decent 60 amp B2B start the engine, turn the inverter on, wife hair dried, all happy, ready to go, with a nice warm engine and cab

To all those that think using an old vacuum hose bodged into a blown air heater outlet, good luck! Take a peek inside the hoses one day and see the dust and shit inside!

Not every decision for everyone is made with money as the number one consideration

If it were we‘d stick with tents, as the do roughly the same job, for a fraction of the cost!

 

[PaulyP]

Instead of spending a lot of money buy some good towels !
Another alternative is for her to wash her hair just before you move on and stick her head out of the window for a blow dry !

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[eddie]

Instead of spending a lot of money buy some good towels !
Another alternative is for her to wash her hair just before you move on and stick her head out of the window for a blow dry !

Looking at the state of some people when they arrive on our campsite, that must be what they do

 

[Hoovie]

I think one key note to understand wet lead acid generally unless you use Trojan you only have half the amperage as useable
But lifepro or simular you can use all the amperage

An 'interesting' key note.

not one I would subscribe to though

 

[Guigsy]

I've never had a powerful inverter. I previously had a small cheap one just to charge laptops. But now laptops run on USB C, I can charge them on just a 36w 12v cigarette socket adaptor.

Seems like an awful lot of money to spend just to get a hair dryer.

 

[PeterCarole29]

I was talking generally about the concept of having an inverter fitted

When I was working, we did all sorts of tests and timings and hair drying takes less time that many people think

a couple of 100ah leisure batteries can cope. I started fitting inverter systems into motorhomes back in the Nineties before Lithium raised its head

Add a decent 60 amp B2B start the engine, turn the inverter on, wife hair dried, all happy, ready to go, with a nice warm engine and cab

To all those that think using an old vacuum hose bodged into a blown air heater outlet, good luck! Take a peek inside the hoses one day and see the dust and shit inside!

Not every decision for everyone is made with money as the number one consideration

If it were we‘d stick with tents, as the do roughly the same job, for a fraction of the cost!

Having gone down the route of inverter in the first place have no regrets at all as as Eddie has said by fitting the B2B makes the difference and if it means you have to run the engine for a few minutes as the compromise so what.
I wish i had installed a B2B first time round . I thought solar would be enough

 

[funflair]

I've never had a powerful inverter. I previously had a small cheap one just to charge laptops. But now laptops run on USB C, I can charge them on just a 36w 12v cigarette socket adaptor.

Seems like an awful lot of money to spend just to get a hair dryer.

Once you have a decent inverter though you realise that they are not just for drying hair and you wonder how you managed before you had one.

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[buzz1]

My wife uses hair dryer , plus we have coffee machine and microwave,
My setup works great have b2b which is brilliant when driving 1hr or so , all charged up,
Have 1x100 solar (pre) 1x200 ? Solar .
200 ah lithium,
Have no problem using above when park up a few days but if not much sun ie winter then don’t use the saping appliances late in day , as nothing going back in .
All in stalled by van blitz

 

[autorouter]

4. Would a Victron Inverter with an on/off switch be advisable?
5. What don’t I know and what do I need to know?

There are two kinds of inverter - Pure Sine Wave and Modified Sine Wave. Modified Sine wave is also called Quasi Sine Wave. The best kind, like the Victron you mention, are PSW, they give out a nice smooth wave just like the AC wave from your house sockets. MSW inverters give out a more jagged wave, with steps, but are less expensive than PSW.

If you know you are only ever going to be powering dumb appliances like a kettle, hair dryer or toaster, the MSW is OK, but devices with electronic controls usually have trouble with MSW, and only work properly on PSW. Microwaves, coffee machines, electric toothbrush, and some chargers prefer PSW.

You definitely need one with a switch, preferably a remote switch that can be mounted somewhere convenient. An inverter takes a small drain from the batteries when switched on, even with nothing plugged in, which mounts up over time, if left on overnight for example. So best to switch it off unless it's actually in use.

Also be aware of just how little energy a battery can store. 190Ah of 12V batteries can store 190 x 12 = 2280Wh of energy, ie 2.28kWh. With lead-acid batteries not all of that is usable, some types will only give you 50% of that on a regular basis. So you can see that a 1kW load is not going to last long, maybe an hour at most. Short bursts of high power, like a microwave, hair dryer or coffee machine, are OK, but sustained loads like air conditioning or fan heater will flatten the batteries very quickly.

 

[Billylou]

Many thanks everyone for your comment and advice. It appears that the belt and braces approach would include lithium. The van already has a B2B charger. I think a chat with the dealer is probably needed to understand the cost or enquire elsewhere. eddievanbitz whats an approximate cost for 2000w inverter and sufficient lithium these days.

 

[Hoovie]

There are two kinds of inverter - Pure Sine Wave and Modified Sine Wave. Modified Sine wave is also called Quasi Sine Wave. The best kind, like the Victron you mention, are PSW, they give out a nice smooth wave just like the AC wave from your house sockets. MSW inverters give out a more jagged wave, with steps, but are less expensive than PSW.

It should be noted also that:
a ) Many "PSW" Inverters for sale are not actually PSW inverters, but MSW inverters deliberately misrepresented by the manufacturers. You find many sellers of Inverters on eBay especially have no idea of what they are selling and are just drop-shippers.
b ) Many PSW Inverters for sale actually have a poor quality sinewave. They are not quite blocky in the same way that MSW outputs are but they are not close to a true AC sinewave that you would see from a domestic supply. Without a 'scope it is hard to tell, but you can get an idea from a voltmeter sometimes. The aforemention Victron inverters are very good and in fact THEIR output sinewave can even be cleaner than some domestic supplies due to their design.
c ) Many Inverters - both PSW and MSW - are just a POS product and will not deliver even close to the specifications they claim.

I would say of all the various products people buy for their motorhomes, Inverters are possibly the single most variable item in terms of the range of product quality and reliability. If you find a bargain inverter for sale, just prepare to be disappointed.

PS. It may sound like I am anti-inverter? Not the case at all. I have run an inverter in my vans for many years and for the last 4-5 years, the Inverter that is fitted in my van is never switched off. Right now it is on but there are no AC loads as (240V) Fridge is off for a spring clean. But not bothered to turn the inverter off as in AES search mode it only uses 2Wh/Hr.

I would not be without one. But remember there is no such thing as a low-cost, high quality inverter.

If you know you are only ever going to be powering dumb appliances like a kettle, hair dryer or toaster, the MSW is OK, but devices with electronic controls usually have trouble with MSW, and only work properly on PSW. Microwaves, coffee machines, electric toothbrush, and some chargers prefer PSW.

You definitely need one with a switch, preferably a remote switch that can be mounted somewhere convenient. An inverter takes a small drain from the batteries when switched on, even with nothing plugged in, which mounts up over time, if left on overnight for example. So best to switch it off unless it's actually in use.

 

[PeterCarole29]

I bought an inverter charger(belt and braces) you may want to consider especially as lithiam can take a fast charge

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[pappajohn]

tell/ ask/ suggest to her to cut her hair short and use wigs job done.

Do you have a death wish.

 

[pappajohn]

Would a Victron Inverter with an on/off switch be advisable?

The on/off switch will only control the 230v side but the inverter still uses some power (standby) from the battery for as long as it's connected to the battery.
To switch off the 12v side would need a massive switch capable of carrying a few hundred amps.

 

[Lenny HB]

Agree with what Martin says in post #4.
With two 95 ah batteries even running 500 watts from an inverter will be pushing it and discharging the batteries at more than the recommended C5 rate & AGM's are not very good for that sort of use, not much good as leisure batteries anyway.

 

[funflair]

The on/off switch will only control the 230v side but the inverter still uses some power (standby) from the battery for as long as it's connected to the battery.
To switch off the 12v side would need a massive switch capable of carrying a few hundred amps.

You can get inverters with a remote switch that puts it off.

 

[Billylou]

Agree with what Martin says in post #4.
With two 95 ah batteries even running 500 watts from an inverter will be pushing it and discharging the batteries at more than the recommended C5 rate & AGM's are not very good for that sort of use, not much good as leisure batteries anyway.

Thanks Lenny HB, if I had lithium batteries instead of the AGM batteries then I would guess I’m in a good place??

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[Lenny HB]

Thanks Lenny HB, if I had lithium batteries instead of the AGM batteries then I would guess I’m in a good place??

Yep, well worth it IMO.

 

[Rogerwyn]

Every one has different requirements, my rule is if it’s not 12v it stays at home

 

[Guigsy]

Every one has different requirements, my rule is if it’s not 12v it stays at home

So many things are USB powered now, it's becoming increasingly easy.

 

[peterc10]

I’ve been trawling through various Inverter threads but I’m still struggling a little to find answers to my particular questions. We are picking up our new van next month and now is the time to specify the bits and bobs. I’m not at all savvy when it comes to all things electrical but “think“ I know what we need.

Currently we have 2 x 95ah AGM batteries, 2 x 185w solar panels, Victron MPPT bluetooth regulator and battery master specified for the new van.

My wife likes the option to dry her hair and as we are not always on hook up it seems having an inverter installed would resolve this and also save us investing in an Ecoflow battery as an example.

We wouldn’t necessarily need all our 230v sockets connected but just 1.

So the questions are.

1. Is this the right way to go?
2. How big should the inverter be?
3. Do I have sufficient battery power?
4. Would a Victron Inverter with an on/off switch be advisable?
5. What don’t I know and what do I need to know?

Many thanks

Same as us. We bought a 2000/4000W inverter for wife's hair dryer a couple of times a week and attached it to one socket only. Since we have put in Lithiums we also also use it for toast and kettle when the sun is shining. And also for electric blankets in the cold, once I get round to fix the new sockets by the bed. If all you need is for heating things up occasionally you don't need a fancy expensive pure sine wave inverter. Ours is a modified sine wave model and it has not let us down in the 8+ years we have been using it. I have a 300A rotary switch on the incoming positive lead and just switch it on and off as necessary, so there are no residual loads when not in use.

 

[AshVanBitz]

Many thanks everyone for your comment and advice. It appears that the belt and braces approach would include lithium. The van already has a B2B charger. I think a chat with the dealer is probably needed to understand the cost or enquire elsewhere. eddievanbitz whats an approximate cost for 2000w inverter and sufficient lithium these days.

Hi Billylou,
Eddie has now retired so I can help you with this. If you can please PM me your email address I would be more than happy to provide any information that you need.
Kindest regards
Ash

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