New Legislation on Conversions

[Daveyboy6666]

Hi, First newbie question of many.. With the new regulations out about turning a Van into a Camper, it states that you must have 2 windows ? now I couldn't see anything about size? ( Unless I skimmed it too quick for my own brain, Which is possible! )
So is there an actual size that the 2 Windows must b or is it as long as there are 2 Windows ? Please help my head from hurting,reading so much information and I haven't even got a Van yet ???? Ty ?

 

[The Lord Squid]

You insure on a agreed value? Price of vehicle market value, plus interior cost. Of course it has to be reasonable and the insurer will agree with you.
The speed is not a issue, Far from it.

Car clubs have procedures to provide valuations to insurers of classic cars for limited mileage policies. I'm not aware of similar arrangements for motorhomes.

 

[34127]

Maybe it's time someone took down the DVLA!! ( I mean by taking them to court, if possible? ? ) If DVLA are setting out rules, guidelines to adhere to, and then when people send in evidence showing that they have done what is asked, But they still Refuse to give out the prize ( V5c ) and especially not saying what u have done wrong, we'll surely they are in breach of something? Or they should by rights explain why they are refusing to give out the V5c stating every point that is still wrong? Not just refusing because there's too many people carrying out conversions in their eyes ? ?

Perhaps we should be contacting our MP's and ask them to discuss with the DVLA. If the professional converors are getting rejections then I imagine they are kicking up but they don't seem to be getting anywhere.

 

[68c]

Perhaps this is even more reason for Jim's post :-

Do motorhome owners need their own consumer association/council/org/whatever

"

 

[Puddleduck]

We have a coachbuilt but at some time in the future may go to PVC so I am reading with interest.

The only real issue, as far as i am aware, is that a lot of insurance companies will onlly quote on vehicles that have Motor Caravan on the V5 document.

They may have to change if the DVLA don't. Rocks and hard places for customers if there is no movement.

Maybe it's time someone took down the DVLA!! ( I mean by taking them to court, if possible? ? ) If DVLA are setting out rules, guidelines to adhere to, and then when people send in evidence showing that they have done what is asked, But they still Refuse to give out the prize ( V5c ) and especially not saying what u have done wrong, we'll surely they are in breach of something? Or they should by rights explain why they are refusing to give out the V5c stating every point that is still wrong? Not just refusing because there's too many people carrying out conversions in their eyes ? ?

Perhaps we should be contacting our MP's and ask them to discuss with the DVLA. If the professional converors are getting rejections then I imagine they are kicking up but they don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Anyone who feels strongly enough needs to go through the DVLA complains procedure and if they get no joy via that route get their MP involved and make a compliant through the Parliamentary Ombudsman (has to be done via your MP and covers the DVLA). The Ombudsman is a bit like kryptonite as far as the DVLA are concerned *Been there and got a good result!

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[Daveyboy6666]

We have a coachbuilt but at some time in the future may go to PVC so I am reading with interest.



They may have to change if the DVLA don't. Rocks and hard places for customers if there is no movement.




Anyone who feels strongly enough needs to go through the DVLA complains procedure and if they get no joy via that route get their MP involved and make a compliant through the Parliamentary Ombudsman (has to be done via your MP and covers the DVLA). The Ombudsman is a bit like kryptonite as far as the DVLA are concerned *Been there and got a good result!

Maybe someone within the group who has a good voice, could start up a online petition, and we could all sign it and put it forward to the relevant party

 

[Puddleduck]

Maybe someone within the group who has a good voice, could start up a online petition, and we could all sign it and put it forward to the relevant party

The problem with petitions are that they need a lot of signatures to get anywhere (10,000 signatures perhaps?) and even then the only promise is that they will be "considered".

The best way forward is that every person who is affected make and appeal / complaint to the DVLA and then on to the Ombudsman. EVERY individual complaint has to be looked at, that ties up time and resources and makes far more "noise" than a petition. If you are affected please appeal and complain.

 

[34127]

They may have to change if the DVLA don't. Rocks and hard places for customers if there is no movement.

I think they will change as at the end of the day it is business and they will be losing customers to the companies that will offer cover.

 

[Wissel]

Getting a van reclassified as a Motorhome (or whatever the term is) is currently very unlikely.

I read the other day (so from memory and probably at least a little out) that the DVLA had over 21,000 requested last year and only reclassified 650ish.

I only know of a few that have been successful since last September. The first one is one that I helped build last year. Originally it didn't have graphics and was turned down. He added graphics and it was approved. This is the van:

The other I can remember didn't come close to the new regs, but the guy knew someone who worked at the DVLA and they took the application in for him

To give an example of how difficult it is to get a van reclassified at the moment, this was refused:

As been mentioned already, a lot of insurance companies aren't bothered.

 

[68c]

I wonder if it something to do with height, the top van is taller. I understand they expect you to be able to walk around in the van, and possibly making us all have tall vans means they can control parking with height barriers.

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[Raul]

Car clubs have procedures to provide valuations to insurers of classic cars for limited mileage policies. I'm not aware of similar arrangements for motorhomes.
[/QUOTE


I have done valuation forms fill in with the modified car in the past. Same insurer as now. Modified specialist.
They did not ask for specific details or photos. Just declare that has been modified as a Motorhome and will be used as intended. You can have mixed use as long as you declare it.
Main thing was mentioned: interior fittings, gas on board, and if any structural part has been altered, if I remember right.

 

[busbuddy]

Car clubs have procedures to provide valuations to insurers of classic cars for limited mileage policies. I'm not aware of similar arrangements for motorhomes.

depends what motorhome you have...the modern stuff is just considered (no offence) gin palace and replaceable
anything considered unique or niche normally has an owners club and can get different insurance deals, my old 1988 karman definitely was insured well above book price


as for the dvla question, lets look at it from their point of view............
no matter what they approve/change on the v5c you can..
insure it as a motorcaravan, go on holiday in it and live the dream so what is the benefit to them from permitting a change to the v5c?
the only difference to the owner is some speed limits, maybe a road tax saving and a possible resale value

is it really a big deal?

 

[34127]

As for the dvla question, lets look at it from their point of view............
no matter what they approve/change on the v5c you can..
insure it as a motorcaravan, go on holiday in it and live the dream so what is the benefit to them from permitting a change to the v5c?
the only difference to the owner is some speed limits, maybe a road tax saving and a possible resale value

is it really a big deal?

Problem with insurance is that some companies will only quote for cover if the vehicle body type has been changed to Motor Caravan and therefore there are less companies to choose from.

The speed limits are those applicable to a motorhome even if the body type has not been changed by the DVLA (assuming the interior complies with the DVLA guidelines.

 

[busbuddy]

The speed limits are those applicable to a motorhome even if the body type has not been changed by the DVLA (assuming the interior complies with the DVLA guidelines.

surely the dvla, and more importantly, the police will still see it as a van and prosecute accordingly regardless of interior fittings?

 

[gus-lopez]

What I think is unknown is whether ferry and tunnel tariffs would be based on commercial prices and what the basis would be for a total loss insurance claim.

No, you just tick the 'motorhome/camper' box.

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[34127]

surely the dvla, and more importantly, the police will still see it as a van and prosecute accordingly regardless of interior fittings?

This is a confusing situation as the DVLA are saying in their guidelines;

"It is important to remember that even if the vehicle’s body type is not changed to ‘motor caravan’, the vehicle can still be used for this purpose as long as the keeper is satisfied the converted vehicle meets the required internal features for motor caravans."

"The body type does not affect the insurance category of the vehicle, or have any effect on speed limits or other legislative requirements. It is only used for establishing vehicle appearance and identification. "

I have a copy of an email from the DVLA that confirms that motor caravan speed limits will apply to a vehicle that has had the interior converted to their guidelines but the exterior has still been classified as a van with windows.

As you suggest in your reply the police will not know if it is a van with windows or a motor caravan and therefore won't know which speed limit to apply.
Also what is even more confusing is that speed limits of a motor caravan depend upon the maximum unladen weight of the vehicle and as this fiqure is not listed on any documentation then again the police will not know which speed limit will apply.
It may be a case of having to challenge any speeding fine that relates to the wrong identification of the vehicle.
It is a bit ironic that according to the DVLA the reason for tightening up on the guidelines for conversion was because authorities such as the police, and members of the public, where not always able to say from appearance if a vehicle was a van of motor caravan. I don't think the new rules have helped in this situation.
The whole thing seems to be a mess to me and needs sorting but I can't imaging it will happen anytime soon.

 

[Raul]

What you just mentioned above, it is covered in the letter from dvla with the new log book. I’m going to keep that with the log book for any eventualities.
Subtle mentioning to re apply after I made further changes to the outside permanent features. Any appeal to they decision will not be considered, further changes yes, will be re considered.

 

[Daveyboy6666]

What you just mentioned above, it is covered in the letter from dvla with the new log book. I’m going to keep that with the log book for any eventualities.
Subtle mentioning to re apply after I made further changes to the outside permanent features. Any appeal to they decision will not be considered, further changes yes, will be re considered.

So what I'm gathering is...No matter what changes you do to your Van etc? ? As long as you inform the Insurance company of your change and tell them that it's a Camper/ Motorhome ( Whatever) then your ok to travel where you want?
But......If you want to Tax the Veh you have to send off your V5, If it Doesn't State it's for a Camper Conversion and you don't have a V5c Then you won't get the cheaper road Tax will you? ? is this right?

 

[34127]

If the interior meets the guidelines set by the DVLA then you can use it as a campervan and benefit from the motor caravan speed limits. Some insurances companies want to see that the V5 document has been changed by the DVLA to Motor Caravan but others don't need this, it just means at the moment you have less insurance companies to choose from.

I am not sure if the road tax or MOT test is affected by the vehicle type registered on the V5 document.

There are some on here who will suggest that ferry charges may be higher if your vehicle is classified as a van as opposed to a Motor Caravan but if booking on, for example, CalMac ferries in Scotland you can specify it is a campervan at time of booking and they won't ask to see the V5 document. I don't know what the situation is when booking cross channel ferries.

The reason the DVLA changed the quidelines was because of pressure from authories such as the police who were concerned abount not being able to distinguish from the outside appearance if the vehicle was a van with windows or a campervan. I don't think the change was intended to limit the use of home conversions.

 

[Emmit]

I'm sorry for playing 'The Old Soldier' (Wrong occupation though

For anyone who cannot, or who is having a problem with the DVLA in getting past their new rules I have this piece of advice.

Take a copy of their conditions in changing the classification of a van to a motor caravan and keep it.

Should they refuse to change the classification, retain a copy of the document sent to you by them, (see Borderland posting 45 above)

Then, should you be stopped for, say doing 69mph on a dual carriageway because it's flagged up as a van rather than a motor caravan, point out to whoever is in front of you, be a Policeman or a letter from a Speed Camera authority that you have contradictory evidence from an authorised source (ie DVLA) and you will challenge any assertion that you were travelling in excess of any speed limit that would apply to a motor caravan.

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[tacr2man]

Dont believe the "Police" reason given by DVLA , as when doing obbo for vehicles of interest its not that forensic , eg if its ID as red golf , red vehicle is whats looked for , and the rest of info narrows it down .

You wouldnt be sitting there and say that cant be the vehicle its got an awning rail !

 

[34127]

I'm sorry for playing 'The Old Soldier' (Wrong occupation though

For anyone who cannot, or who is having a problem with the DVLA in getting past their new rules I have this piece of advice.

Take a copy of their conditions in changing the classification of a van to a motor caravan and keep it.

Should they refuse to change the classification, retain a copy of the document sent to you by them, (see Borderland posting 45 above)

Then, should you be stopped for, say doing 69mph on a dual carriageway because it's flagged up as a van rather than a motor caravan, point out to whoever is in front of you, be a Policeman or a letter from a Speed Camera authority that you have contradictory evidence from an authorised source (ie DVLA) and you will challenge any assertion that you were travelling in excess of any speed limit that would apply to a motor caravan.

That would be sensible so that if you were stopped for 'speeding' then you could challenge it there and then.
I did ask the DVLA how the police would know from visual appearance what speed limit would apply to a motor caravan as it depends upon the maximum unladen weight of the vehicle which is not recorded on any documentation and therefore unknown to the police. The reply from the DVLA was that they would expect the police officer to make a judge from what the vehicle looked like. It would therefore also be prudent to carry a copy of a weigh bridge certificate to show the weight.

 

[Emmit]

That would be sensible so that if you were stopped for 'speeding' then you could challenge it there and then.
I did ask the DVLA how the police would know from visual appearance what speed limit would apply to a motor caravan as it depends upon the maximum unladen weight of the vehicle which is not recorded on any documentation and therefore unknown to the police. The reply from the DVLA was that they would expect the police officer to make a judge from what the vehicle looked like. It would therefore also be prudent to carry a copy of a weigh bridge certificate to show the weight.

In the case of your average PVC that would only cloud the issue.
The relevant weight for the limitation of speeds for a van on dual carriage is 2 tonnes MGW.
All the Fiats, Pugs, Citroens and Transits that are the usual suspects for conversion are over that.
What you would be doing is proving to the police that you are aware of the limitation.
You need to put the boot on the other foot and show that you know what a motor caravan is and in your particular case, prove it.

 

[34127]

In the case of your average PVC that would only cloud the issue.
The relevant weight for the limitation of speeds for a van on dual carriage is 2 tonnes MGW.
All the Fiats, Pugs, Citroens and Transits that are the usual suspects for conversion are over that.
What you would be doing is proving to the police that you are aware of the limitation.
You need to put the boot on the other foot and show that you know what a motor caravan is and in your particular case, prove it.

I believe the speed limit for a motor caravan is related to the max unlden weight and if this is less than 3.05 tonnes then the speed limits are same as for a car. But this only applies if the vehicle is being used solely as a motor caravan and the internal fittings match the DVLA guidelines. I would doubt that any PVC would be over the 3.05 tonnes limit.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

 

[Emmit]

I believe the speed limit for a motor caravan is related to the max unlden weight and if this is less than 3.05 tonnes then the speed limits are same as for a car. But this only applies if the vehicle is being used solely as a motor caravan and the internal fittings match the DVLA guidelines. I would doubt that any PVC would be over the 3.05 tonnes limit.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

This has been the subject of countless debates on here.
The short answer is that most if not all coach built motorhomes are under the 3.05 t and in any case, it isn't written down usually what it weighs ' dry' out of the factory without any 'stuff' is water fuel accessories, gas etc.

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[Raul]

So what I'm gathering is...No matter what changes you do to your Van etc? ? As long as you inform the Insurance company of your change and tell them that it's a Camper/ Motorhome ( Whatever) then your ok to travel where you want?
But......If you want to Tax the Veh you have to send off your V5, If it Doesn't State it's for a Camper Conversion and you don't have a V5c Then you won't get the cheaper road Tax will you? ? is this right?

i don’t know about the VED or MOT, yet. My first MOT comes in dec this year. Also, the tax I will find out in April, it came with full year road tax.
As for tunnel, I booked and crossed on Saturday as a camper, you don’t need a v5 for crossings.
The speed does not bother me al all, I’m used to 60 on dual carriage ways as I drove vans for years.

 

[Timcowen]

I have a Renault Trafic van for work use. I have to declare any modifications for insurance. In my case, the previous owner put an aerofoil on the rear doors!!! (I know) . Can't be easily removed so it costs me more to insure....I do point out that at 64 I'm not a boy racer. Some companies won't touch me. So, if your vehicle is still a 'Van' is it a van with modifications that have to be declared and accepted by by the insurance company?

 

[Otter Spotter]

I think in all these discussions, there has been no mention of the requirement to fit an Awning and you must fit caravan style decals, these are both designed to make the van less stealthy and so that the police can differentiate between a campervan/motorhome and a builders van.
i cannot decide which type of decals to buy as some look naff after a couple of years.

 

[34127]

I think in all these discussions, there has been no mention of the requirement to fit an Awning and you must fit caravan style decals, these are both designed to make the van less stealthy and so that the police can differentiate between a campervan/motorhome and a builders van.
i cannot decide which type of decals to buy as some look naff after a couple of years.

Decals can 'fall off' easily if not properly attached and there would be no requirement to inform the DVLA about it.

 

[Tarn2]

To throw another spanner into the works (as if any more are needed!), I tried to book a pitch on a caravan park today and was asked if the campervan has been approved by the DVLA as their site licence requires that. No idea if it was just an excuse to try and deter 'vans with a sofa bed in the back' and justify the sky high site fees, or an indication of what's developing in the industry as a result of the DVLA strong arm tactics.

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[Dorwyn]

There must be a rationale for why they have suddenly adopted this approach. There have been a number of conversions done so that they can be used as "Q" vans, so that you cannot tell from the outside that it is a camper, so perhaps this is to field that approach. One of the recent requirements is that is "looks like a motorised caravan". I once inquired as to why, and was told it was so the police could tell what the use of the van was. The immediate response was that if they can't tell the difference, they must be a bit .... tiired and overworked.

I did then wonder, if you could stick on the van sides more pictures of windows, with the vinyl motif, "this is a MOTORHOME..

Also, and as an ex-employee of the much loved Crapita group, I believe that DVLA is largely run by the said. And if they happily employed me, what chance have we got of any great logic?