National Trust and parking overnight...an idea.

[PeteH]

In that case there are thousands of lorry drivers breaking the law in laybys and lorry parks up and down the country. That includes motorway service stations which are nearly all owned by the government and leased to the company running them. Never heard of any prosecutions for them sleeping in their trucks.

In absolute terms, that is true, It appears to be one of life`s contradictions. I assume those of us who slept in our cabs where under some sort of "exemption" due to the fact that it was Mandatory to take "rest", that rest including sleep. As such it is (of course) unheard of for anyone to be interfered with. Most restrictions aimed at the use of parking area`s for sleeping, are those of the L-A`s. Many Car parks, especially in "holiday area`s", will have signs prohibiting sleeping, usually a local bye-Law. eg: Where There is no specific local by-law or Traffic Regulation Order prohibiting overnight parking or sleeping in vehicles; You are unlikely be moved on.

I suspect that it is a similar situation to "A" frames People do it, Knowing it is a Grey area?.

 

[PeteH]

I have yet to see the law and cases on this point.

Please point me in the right direction.

Geoff

You are right in the respect of a dearth of Prosecutions. The 1960 caravan site regulations don`t specifically prohibit overnight occupation, they are more concerned with the control of camping sites. They do however specify that you need the permission of the owner, which for say a Lay by would be likely the Highway Authority, The same with Services, so long as the permission is there you are OK.
Most prohibitions on "sleeping" are Bye-laws issued by Local Authorities, where you can park your Motorhome overnight. BUT NOT occupy it!.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Sorry about the pro and anti hunting diehards - I am a very firm advocate of proper management of wildlife. Part of that management includes culling of old elderly, infirm or a greater number of those wild animals than the land they live on can adequately support them sufficiently for their ongoing health.

It is expensive to do, this management, but eg when properly done you can't just turn up randomly with your pair of matched eg Purdeys and take potshots at any (eg) deer you happen to see - the Keepers know their stock and which ones need to be removed and why.

Hate & loathe those grey tree rats - they are utterly responsible for all but wiping out our native and far more attractive Red squirrels. Foxes are now forced to scavenge in urban gardens to support their uncontrolled breeding. I wonder what happened to cause that? (not)

Is it me or is this a random posting on a completely different subject?

 

[Spriddler]

In that case there are thousands of lorry drivers breaking the law in laybys and lorry parks up and down the country. That includes motorway service stations which are nearly all owned by the government and leased to the company running them. Never heard of any prosecutions for them sleeping in their trucks.

And it would seem from the detritus left in laybys, without any toilet facilities.

 

[Spriddler]

My DIL works at an NT property and they check that all areas are clear of visitors and vehicles so that they can activate their buildings alarms and outdoor CCTV covering the site. Nevertheless there have been two burglaries of antiques and valuable artefacts in the past year.
One could argue that a few m/h's in the car park might add a bit of security just as long as movement of the vehicles or their wandering occupants (e.g. dog walking, searching for water taps etc) didn't set off the alarms .

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Otter Spotter]

You are right in the respect of a dearth of Prosecutions. The 1960 caravan site regulations don`t specifically prohibit overnight occupation, they are more concerned with the control of camping sites. They do however specify that you need the permission of the owner, which for say a Lay by would be likely the Highway Authority, The same with Services, so long as the permission is there you are OK.
Most prohibitions on "sleeping" are Bye-laws issued by Local Authorities, where you can park your Motorhome overnight. BUT NOT occupy it!.

I thought most services permit over nighters at a cost of around £23, first 2 hours free except for at eBay and Gloucester where it’s 3 hours free.

 

[busbuddy]

I think security would be a big issue, I bet the trusts insurers would not be happy with people sleeping in the grounds.
The insurance company would regard us as a threat and charge accordingly

 

[AXO66]

YEP, YEP AND YEP again.
registered vans will have overwhelming responsible owners.
trust have plenty of staff volunteers to be involved in the admin, management etc.
local aithoritues , Powys, north Yorkshire allow overnight parking in the van.
NTrust need the money.

they woukd give and taketh away the authorisation.

Many trust houses have folks living in , or in nearby cottages.

and many carparks on NT land with no houses.

sound conceot
how to get them to bite?
then the how, where, what and details.

 

[mitzimad]

evidxently thedre is something in the way the national trust was set up that prohibits vehicles from dusk to dawn

 

[ManTheVan]

At the moment, many NT car parks have pay and display ticket machines, but there appears to be no appetite to fine those who do not pay. Instead, a polite message is left of the car of offenders pointing out that members park free, encouraging them to join or to pay for car parking next time. I applaud this.

The charging infrastructure is therefore pre-installed in many places and it would not take much to include an MH overnight category. Again, my proposal is for the concession to be made to paid-up members of the trust only. Encouragement can still be made to potential new MH-owning members to join, but also, being prepared to issue penalty charges to those who abuse the concession or park without authority would be key.

Even if it were not possible, for reasons of security at some particularly sensitive sites, not to open all NT car parks for overnighting, that would still leave thousands of small (many coastal) NT car parks where the trust would gain extra revenue and members a safe overnight stay in a beautiful location. The trust would, in fact, gain the revenue from the membership add-on even if members did not use the facility very often.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[emjaiuk]

In that case there are thousands of lorry drivers breaking the law in laybys and lorry parks up and down the country. That includes motorway service stations which are nearly all owned by the government and leased to the company running them. Never heard of any prosecutions for them sleeping in their trucks.

It doesn’t apply to highways apparently

 

[Clipgate]

I can only speak for myself, to this end I would out of principal not stay on any NT property, as with so many alleged charitable organizations it has become a business for the directors and senior officials benefit. In addition the history to many properties is an issue for me, the source of the original wealth has been in many cases *questionable".
To support any organisation that does not listen or is reflective of its membership seems to me counter intuitive.
We all need to take individual responsible and act accordingly.
The Aire system in Europe comes from quite a different ethos than in the UK, possibly appeals the quite a different audience as well. That does not mean all is utopia, however the more socially minded nature of camping car use and provision there is one that suits me well unfortunately.

 

[PeteH]

I thought most services permit over nighters at a cost of around £23, first 2 hours free except for at eBay and Gloucester where it’s 3 hours free.

You are right, But the basis on which they can legally offer the service is because they have, by making a charge, implicitly invited the take up of use of their Land. which IMV complies with the terms of the 1960 act. ie; you have the landowners "permission".

Edit:- A quick reading of said act (which like all "acts", is full of caveats) would imply that with owner permission, up to 2 days may be available?, but the whole thing is a bit (lot?) of a Minefield.

 

[GJH]

Do they if they just permit longer hours of parking on what is already a car park and if no service facilities are provided?

No, because they would not "just permit longer hours of parking" they would be permitting camping.
Unlike some who think it OK to not to comply with the 1960 Act (e.g. some pub landlords &c who act as "hosts" for clubs such as Britstops) , organisations like the NT do not do so.

Do local authorities have to get a site licence if they designate part of their car parks for motorhomes?

Geoff

As mentioned yesterday in the Camping Cars thread (and numerous times over the years) LAs which are site licensing authorities (which most that run car parks are) can take advantage of a specific exemption, the one in Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule of the 1960 Act.

 

[GJH]

In that case there are thousands of lorry drivers breaking the law in laybys and lorry parks up and down the country. That includes motorway service stations which are nearly all owned by the government and leased to the company running them. Never heard of any prosecutions for them sleeping in their trucks.

No they are not. As pointed out many times before, highways (including lay-byes and MSAs) are covered by separate legislation from the off road land covered by the 1960 Act.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

I see what you’re saying, but I don’t believe that Taw & Torridge DC operate their motorhome overnighting on a CL/CS basis. They simply allow overnight sleeping for maximum 2 nights in any one car park. No other facilities provided. No water, no toilet, nothing but car park space. No tents allowed. And they certainly aren’t limited to 5 units. This isn’t camping, it’s extended parking with sleeping permitted.

No, they don't operate as a CL/CS. They use the exemption in Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule of the 1960 Act to allow what is, in law, camping in the car parks.

 

[GJH]

The CL is Caravan and Motorhome Club. But the points the same - they could use any of the other organisations to set up small sites
However, allowing just overnight parking for self contained vehicles seems to be just a matter of permission. The FB group is looking into ways fir this to happen but preferably with water and disposal.
it would seem an ideal solution to have a CL type but allow access from parking for disposal.
This difficult time would seem ideal to allow the parking and bring in some money

No, in law it is not "just a matter of permission" and, because habitation is involved, it is not "just overnight parking". For a landowner to allow land to be used as a caravan site the requirements of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (as amended) must be complied with.

 

[15edward]

My understanding is that this is the nub of the interpretation . Parking is not the same as camping on a Caravan site

 

[SpeedyDux]

evidxently thedre is something in the way the national trust was set up that prohibits vehicles from dusk to dawn

The NT only wants to keep you safe from all the vampires that creep out of their graveyards.

I've seen that Tarantino fillum.

 

[ManTheVan]

No, they don't operate as a CL/CS. They use the exemption in Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule of the 1960 Act to allow what is, in law, camping in the car parks.

Thanks for clarifying that GJH.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ManTheVan]

Unlike some who think it OK to not to comply with the 1960 Act (e.g. some pub landlords &c who act as "hosts" for clubs such as Britstops) , organisations like the NT do not do so.

GJH, sorry if you’ve been asked this before, but are you able to give a brief summary of the requirements of the 1960 Act? Does it prevent a private landowner from allowing invited guests to sleep overnight (Camp) on their land, whether in vehicles or not?

 

[ceejayt]

One of the biggest problems is getting the NT to engage in a conversation.

I tried in relation to identifying sites where the entrance and car parks were OK for larger vans (having got into difficulties in a couple of occasions) and created a map page on my blog but they either don’t respond or you get a polite no

I would pay at least £50 to be able to use their parking for a single overnight scheme similar to Britstops.

how many would sign up at £50. Could we canvas that number from our membership? Could they run a trial at say 20 places round the country?

nwed to get thm to engage in a dialogue.

 

[ManTheVan]

I would pay at least £50 to be able to use their parking for a single overnight scheme similar to Britstops.

how many would sign up at £50. Could we canvas that number from our membership? Could they run a trial at say 20 places round the country?

So would I. However, GJH has pointed out that they might be in breach of the law if they did this without gaining the necessary exemption as a CL/CS

It strikes me that MHF is able to grant the exemptions. Would you be up for this Jim?

 

[ceejayt]

I am sure others know the law around this better than me but if a pub can do it for single night only why not the NT

I guess the ‘T would want belt and braces anyway, insurance Etc which would all factor into their decision making

 

[Jim]

I am sure others know the law around this better than me but if a pub can do it for single night only why not the NT

It's highly likely, that to adhere strictly to the law, pubs that allow overnighting are actually campsites and need planning permission or exempting. But who cares enough to investigate it and bring prosecutions.

The only time pubs get exemptions is when they have a neighbour to shut up.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ManTheVan]

You can be damned sure that some busybody would complain about the NT if they offered the facility. If MHF were to offer to exempt all NT car parks it would make us one of the largest in the country.

 

[Spriddler]

One of the biggest problems is getting the NT to engage in a conversation.

That does seem to be an issue.
An acquaintance is an official of a substantial wildlife conservation organisation and he has a devil of a job to obtain their cooperation with regard to volunteer groups participating in the maintenance and protection of habitats; NT woodlands, hedgerows, roosts, ponds, lakes etc.
His perception is that there is no national policy and that many sites are fairly autonomous with regard to local policy and management. It may have something to do with some properties having residents who are still permitted to live there and have influence in the running of the site even though the site has been handed over to the NT.

 

[SpeedyDux]

GJH, sorry if you’ve been asked this before, but are you able to give a brief summary of the requirements of the 1960 Act? Does it prevent a private landowner from allowing invited guests to sleep overnight (Camp) on their land, whether in vehicles or not?

Here's the recommended cure for insomnia you should study closely before bedtime:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/62

Enjoy!

 

[ManTheVan]

Looks like the CAMPRA group on FB now has 12.2k members and has already begun to achieve some results.

 

[GJH]

GJH, sorry if you’ve been asked this before, but are you able to give a brief summary of the requirements of the 1960 Act? Does it prevent a private landowner from allowing invited guests to sleep overnight (Camp) on their land, whether in vehicles or not?

Yes, This article.
As far as invited guests go, in a caravan/motorhome it is OK within limits. The rules are in paragraphs 1 to 3 of the First Schedule as the article explains. They certainly preclude any scheme such as that proposed for NT premises in previous posts.
I don't know what the rules are for invited guests camping in tents/outside vehicles as I haven't studied that legislation.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}