Moving around a moving motorhome

[eddie]

No grey area at all. I posted the facts regarding the illegality above. During many years of crewing a "Jam sandwich" I and my colleagues have reported or issued tickets to a number of drivers in such circumstances.

There are actually two similar offences, the one under the Construction & Use Regs that I mentioned, which is non-endorsable, and an almost identically worded offence under the Road Traffic Act, which is endorsable.

The key point is "having regard to the manner in which persons are carried" although the offences also cover vehicle defects and the manner in which loads are carried if it is likely that they too could also result in injury to persons in or on the vehicle, or otherwise using the road.

The occupant is clearly not restrained by the seat belt provided for that purpose and if you don't think it is dangerous the prosecutor would likely ask you how you were preventing the unrestrained and unseated occupant from continuing through the windscreen at the speed of the vehicle in the event of a collision or other sudden emergency, the momentum propelling them with a mass several times their own body weight and possibly killing or injuring the driver (you) on the way through!

In the event that you were involved in an incident that resulted in death or injury to the improperly carried occupant, the circumstances would be good evidence for an offence of causing death or injury by either careless or dangerous driving too.

And yes when we have forgotten to secure the fridge or a cupboard door before setting off, on a couple of occasions my wife has done it too, so I'm not preaching as holier than though, just stating the facts!

Informative post, thank you

I suppose showering is right out then?

 

[Chris]

Informative post, thank you

I suppose showering is right out then?

Should be ok if you have cruise control.

 

[EuroTrotters]

like standing on a bus?

 

[gus-lopez]

I'm still totally convinced it is illegal and that if spotted by one of our invisible Traffic Police a prosecution would result. We also do it - well one of us does. And I have three unrestrained dogs .

It isn't specifically but would come under one of the " this'll cover it" all encompassing ones they drag up to prove themselves correct.

Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations. Using a motor vehicle in a dangerous condition likely to cause a danger of injury to persons in or on the vehicle, or to other road users, due to the manner in which passengers are being carried.

It would also fall within the definition of dangerous driving in the event of an incident resulting in injury to the passenger, as well as (possibly quite substantially) reducing any compensation or injury award that might otherwise be payable.

Why is it in a dangerous condition ?
Why are the passengers being carried in a manner considered to be dangerous?
How on earth can it be "dangerous driving" do you ex 's make this stuff up?
If there are no seat belts provided & the vehicle can legally carry an amount of passengers over and above the amount of belts how can it possibly be illegal.?
I have a spanish vehicle legally registered as carrying 4 passengers.
There are 2 seat belts.
Those travelling in the rear have none.
By entering & travelling the passengers have accepted the lack of belts.
How can there be a reduction in an insurance pay out when there are no belts provided.
How does this stand when a vehicle in the Uk is old enough to be exempt from requiring them? They can't reduce a pay out on the grounds that you have contributed as nothing was provide/required/considered necessary.

There are very few journeys where I don't make at least one trip down the back for something: to get a drink, switch the fridge to battery, close a cupboard, etc...


You're probably correct that there is no specific law against moving around in a moving motorhome - so technically that in itself is not illegal.

But it is illegal to not wear a seatbelt in a moving vehicle where seatbelts are fitted. So I suppose it would be totally legal to move around in your moving motorhome so long as you're still wearing your seatbelt. Which is obviously totally impractical. So moving around in a moving motorhome is in effect illegal because in order to do so you need to remove your seatbelt.

Not if there isn't any which in many motorhomes pre 2007 there are not & they have the legal right to carry passengers with no belts provided.

 

[Wellington]

I’m pretty sure it is law that a seatbelt must be worn if possible. I’m a solo driver, so I’ve never done it, and I don’t allow my child to do it, but I’m certain I would have been astern to shut something if I weren’t the only adult travelling. Ours is usually the loo door- either not shut properly by children, or has something hung on the handle which has depressed the latch. The oven also has a disturbing habit of banging open, as well, despite appearing secure on departure.

I don’t know about car insurance payout, but any personal injury claim would be substantially reduced (usually by fifty percent) as you are deemed to be partly responsible for your injury (as in ‘if the damn fool person had been wearing a seatbelt, he might not have broken his back and be wheelchair-bound for life’. This is not conjecture, a number of my former patients had claims reduced for not wearing seatbelts, despite catastrophic injuries)

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[Deneb]

Gus,

I'm on my phone away from home, so typing not as easy as on a PC but:

It is considered dangerous for the reasons I've stated and which surely should be a matter of common sense. Have you seen what little can remain of the coachbuilt body of a MH following a collision? I would go as far as to say it offers very little if any impact protection. I have seen the results of vehicles crashing into the rear of motorhomes in motorway queues, and the fatality of two occupants of a MH parked at the roadside hit by another vehicle.

I mentioned seat belts because it is also an offence not to wear one when provided. That is a separate issue to using a vehicle in a dangerous condition and the offence is committed by the person not using the belt if they are an adult.

You are quite correct that no belt is required to be worn if not required to be fitted.

Buses have an exemption for passengers to move through the vehicle for a short time as necessary to use facilities provided. Some, but not all, are (were)? licensed to carry a stated number of standing passengers who are provided with grab rails or other devices with which they can restrain themselves. They are subject to testing annually for condition and safety of the devices provided as well as other aspects of the vehicle.

Nevertheless, a study of vehicle occupancy injuries found that standing bus passengers had a much greater risk of injury than other vehicle occupants, over 5% I seem to recall.

There are other exemptions such as a mechanic who needs to be carried in a certain part of the vehicle or manner as necessary to enable them to locate or diagnose a fault.

A MH is not a bus, it is treated much the same as a car in UK law, but funny how some people want them to be treated as cars when it suits them, but not otherwise!

Gus, you have a Spanish registered MH and live in Spain I believe. Spanish legislation is a matter for the Spanish government and can vary considerably from UK legislation, as is also the case with any other country. Yes, there is harmonised legislation within the EU but individual countries have their own domestic laws as well.

@PeteH stated that towing with a dolly was only deemed illegal following a stated case. Again, not so. Primary legislation in the UK only allows such a device to be used to recover a disabled vehicle and that has certainly been the case since at least 1968 which was the date of the relevant legislation at the time of my traffic patrol course.

It's worth remembering when considering these issues that most people will thankfully go through life never experiencing a life changing traffic collision and therefore understandably have little if any appreciation of the risks and dangers in certain situations or behaviours. Emergency services personnel on the other hand may see the horrific results on an almost daily basis. Legislators fall somewhere in between but have to make decisions based on hard statistics and opportunities to prevent or reduce casualties.

In relation to @Wellington's post, one of my saddest experiences involved a teenage girl travelling in the front seat if her parents' car with her feet up on the dashboard. The car was hut from behind in a queue if traffic and as a result she broke her spine and was permanently disabled from above the waist down. The award made to her was substantially reduced because it was determined that the injury would likely not have happened had she been sitting correctly with her feet in the footwell, meaning that a substantial part of the cost of her future care unfortunately fell on her parents insufficient resources.

 

[Hel999]

move around all the time - fetch drinks, close the oven door which annoyingly opens every time we hit a bump, go to loo, fetch snacks. Many years working in the back of a fast moving ambulance gave me the ability to balance well whilst moving and to keep one eye on the road to predict the corners and roundabouts. Tired out to be a skill worth having

 

[Wellington]

@Deneb, yes it it awfully sad. I have treated a few patients following similar accidents (I was a spinal injuries physio)

My daughter will not be allowed to travel in the front of the MH when we go to France in the summer, as she is under ten. Does anyone know if the table presents any additional risk, as she will be travelling in the dinette?

 

[PeteH]

@PeteH stated that towing with a dolly was only deemed illegal following a stated case. Again, not so. Primary legislation in the UK only allows such a device to be used to recover a disabled vehicle and that has certainly been the case since at least 1968 which was the date of the relevant legislation at the time of my traffic patrol course.

The Case I spoke of happened in the early 60`s. Several Motor Traders (had) used this type of device, often imported from the USA, for the said purpose. It was reported in one of the Old Motor Magazines at the time.

Sad really, as it is a safe method, (as witness USA usage) takes up less storage room than a Trailer, with the added advantage that unlike an "A" frame, full auto front wheel drive cars can be transported. Which is what I did when I brought the Winnebago from Florida to Texas in 2008. We brought the Car (FWD Auto) back on a "U Haul", Dolly.

As for moving about when on the move. I submitted that it is a "grey" area, largely because there IS no direct ruling to be found anywhere to my knowledge. It is not something I would recommend, certainly as a "common practice" but there are times when the alternative could be as dangerous.

There are increasing examples of situations where the police do not know the legal situation, largely because there is that much "legislation" to be absorbed and it is being added to at an increasing rate as we enter the "snowflake" era where every "slight" or perceived "offence" needs to be investigated, when 50 years ago it was treat with "common sense". And in many cases a "Don`t be stupid, bugger off" was sufficient approbation.

 

[eddie]

@DenebMy daughter will not be allowed to travel in the front of the MH when we go to France in the summer, as she is under ten. Does anyone know if the table presents any additional risk, as she will be travelling in the dinette?

Don't worry about the table, its the fridge flying through the air that will get you both!

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[Deneb]

@PeteH one of the first serious accidents I dealt with on traffic involved a fully laden van recovered by a licensed recovery operator using a towing dolly. Totally unsuitable for purpose and the broken down van and dolly tipped over on a roundabout seriiously injuring a cyclist. I gave evidence at the trial for an offence of dangerous condition due to the manner in which the load was carried and both driver and company were found guilty. The company went out of business shortly after.

Agree about police knowledge though. Traffic officers today aren't trained to the same level we were. Not their fault, they are often traffic patrol in name only and spend too much time being abstracted onto other duties. On my shift, every officer was allocated a specific area of road traffic law that we were expected to become "expert" at, so there was always someone available with the knowledge to answer any question is advise on any situation.

 

[Deneb]

@Wellington if the seat belt is suitable and can be adjusted to prevent your daughter coming into contact with the table, there's not much more you can do. As you know, people's extremities can travel further in a collision than would appear just from trying to see how far a seat belt will let you lean forward.

 

[RidersofRohan]

We just leave the driving to our minions.

 

[Kingham]

@Deneb, yes it it awfully sad. I have treated a few patients following similar accidents (I was a spinal injuries physio)

My daughter will not be allowed to travel in the front of the MH when we go to France in the summer, as she is under ten. Does anyone know if the table presents any additional risk, as she will be travelling in the dinette?

I always thought this was safe enough until I watched the recent crash testing videos on here, especially the one that shows the table coming up from the floor, at the same time as the child dummy’s head was going down towards the table. They hit !!

 

[Tony50]

What worries me if you are silly enough to move around the Motorhome when vehicle is in motion, is through inconsiderable act it might cause an accident and it might be me and or mine you may hit , sadly one of you may kill

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[eddie]

What worries me if you are silly enough to move around the Motorhome when vehicle is in motion, is through inconsiderable act it might cause an accident and it might be me and or mine you may hit , sadly one of you may kill

I assure you that when my wife is cooking our lunch I drive far more carefully! I slow down to around 65mph, I put down my Kindle, and I put my coffee cup away.

 

[Feltwell]

@Deneb, yes it it awfully sad. I have treated a few patients following similar accidents (I was a spinal injuries physio)

My daughter will not be allowed to travel in the front of the MH when we go to France in the summer, as she is under ten. Does anyone know if the table presents any additional risk, as she will be travelling in the dinette?

I'd say it does. Mine goes on one of the kids bunks at the back of the van, strapped to a piece of furniture. The edge of the table at waist/chest height could do a nasty injury to a child. The table may move in an accident, I wouldn't rely solely on the seatbelt stopping the kid from hitting it.

Of course the one time I *didn't* put the strap on was the one occasion I had to do a full on emergency stop - table went flying through the van, put a nice gouge in the outside corner of the bathroom, but most importantly didn't hit anyone. It travelled a good 12 feet through the air up the van though - and that's just under very heavy braking, not actually hitting anything.

Scared the living b'Jesus out of me, I've never forgotten to put the strap on since.

 

[Kingham]

@Deneb, yes it it awfully sad. I have treated a few patients following similar accidents (I was a spinal injuries physio)

My daughter will not be allowed to travel in the front of the MH when we go to France in the summer, as she is under ten. Does anyone know if the table presents any additional risk, as she will be travelling in the dinette?

I didn’t have time to look up the post earlier, but here’s a link to the video I mentioned.

The crash test dummy ‘table and head’ impact is at 4m 50s if you want to see it.

Broken Link Removed

 

[cliffanger]

I usually have to get up and pop the strap back on the sliding door. Everything else is usually ok.

We had friends visit when we worked in the BVI and whilst sailing back from St Thomas to Tortola, with the 44ft yacht close hauled and heeling at a scary angle, our friend Dave prepared and cooked sausages and real chips (cooked in a saucepan full of oil) for six people! The Gimbal cooker worked really well - but even though - a legend!

His highlight of the holiday was to go out with Cliff on Christmas Day to a yacht that was sinking on Peter Island - believe you me, I could write a book!

 

[Jake Royd]

Interesting replies everybody.
Thank you.
In reality I'm talking, I think, of just popping back to close a door etc.
Unbelted yes.
Having had a sailing boat I quite understand that that is an entirely different issue, covered by no law I'm aware of.

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[thebriars]

Who cares whether its illegal or not, its dangerous. Its pointless going on about cars without seatbelts, coaches yachts or planes. Planes, once in the air cannot stop suddenly, though if they hit bad turbulence often many are injured. I doubt any yacht can do 60mph.

We were on a foreign coach tour recently and our tour guide strongly advised us to always put our seatbelts on, and that she would not be coming up and down the coach whilst it was moving. A couple of years before one of her colleagues was killed when the bus braked sharply and she flew forward hitting the windscreen.

Frankly if people want to wander up and down their motorhomes whilst travelling its up to them. I've seen young children running up and down motorhomes and no its not illegal. I do think the parents ought to be prosecuted for neglect though! There's nearly always somewhere to stop if needed. At the very worst pulling up near the end of a hard shoulder of a motorway slip road is better than nothing, maybe not entirely legal.

It seems many do not realise that if the van brakes sharply anyone standing will be thrown forward with an incredible force.

Lady Di would be alive today had she been wearing a seat belt.

 

[Feltwell]

Why do I suspect that those who habitually get up & wander around a moving MH will do so right up until the point the driver has to brake hard and they go flying...………..and after that they'll stop doing it?

 

[thebriars]

Why do I suspect that those who habitually get up & wander around a moving MH will do so right up until the point the driver has to brake hard and they go flying...………..and after that they'll stop doing it?

Maybe permanently.

 

[PeteH]

Several Acquaintances, and few good buddies would be alive to-day had ("x") not happened. Life is something of a Lottery, Father retired age 65, never saw his 66th Birthday (stroke No warning). Uncle smoked 60 a day until very late in his, and was 89 when he finally said goodbye. A good buddy died in 2014 of cancer, I still miss the "B". 66 he was!. Over my life I have taken what some would say where risks. Riding Motorcycles back in the day WITHOUT helmets. Securing a swinging 2tonne load in a force 8, before it could do major damage to the ship. Or sitting on the cross-trees 60ft or more above a steel deck, repairing running lights in similar conditions. ALL involve "risk", You evaluate said risk, what is now known as "risk assessment" in modern Jargon, we where brought up to do it almost without thinking. If anyone actually reads my posts, I do not advocate anyone making a practice of leaving the seat, I did not allow my grand-kids to leave, if they needed "potty" we stopped, even on a hard shoulder, that which in itself is a "risk", the lesser. The degree of risk is what is, or should be, assessed. As I said, my Triumph has the belt attachment points, and it is likely that I will re-fit new belts when the restoration is completed, even so there is not provision for rear belts!. Nor is there any compulsion for me to have them.

There are IMV far to many in to-days society who think they have the answer to life, mostly by trying to wrap up in cotton wool. My answer to them is why not stay in bed?. But make sure you put the "accrows" in in case the ceiling collapses! "life is survived, but merely alive, standing outside the fire". (Garth Brooks)

 

[thebriars]

Nothing about wrapping oneself in cotton wool, its about not taking completely unnecessary risks. Personally, having waited so long to grab some money back off the government in the form of a pension, I want to ensure I get as much off them as possible.

Another example of this is when people break down on a motorway and stand with their backs to the traffic on the hard shoulder. Had they climbed up the banking and stood at the top they would have been so much safer.

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[denisejoe]

Denise often goes back to the toilet so fitted a seat belt to it so is it ok?

 

[Deneb]

Denise often goes back to the toilet so fitted a seat belt to it so is it ok?

As long as she's securely restrained on it, it should stop the contents from flying out

 

[dabhand]

We use the loo, get lunch, get drinks, close cupboards and have in the past even showered en route to meet friends when running late

Add to this that we used to swap drivers going along we are surely going to Hell in the eyes of some LOL

I also walk around, get drinks, use the Loo and eat en route when being driven in a coach, a train or when I am being flown in a plane

Dare devils us!

Careless bar steward you

 

[Puddleduck]

We try to find somewhere to pull over.

I do admit (as a passenger) to going back to move or close / lock stuff when stopped at junctions or lights.

 

[nicholsong]

Why do I suspect that those who habitually get up & wander around a moving MH will do so right up until the point the driver has to brake hard and they go flying...………..and after that they'll stop doing it?

They might never be able to get in the seat again!

My passener has only occassionally had to leave the seat but for 10-15 secs., and if she does I slow down and give a longer braking distance to avoid sharp braking.

Geoff

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