Motorhome weights and payload - empty seats

[hja]

Just been reading a post on Motorhome Happiness forum where someone says that DVSA have said that for each empty seat in your van you must add 75kg to the payload plus 10kg for possessions. Apparently the law changed last year. Responses have obviously said when you are weighed it is what you have now not what you might have. The author of the post says they were told this by both the DVSA and the company that uprated their van.
If this is so, then many of us that are careful to stay under our permitted 3500Kg are stuffed.

 

[Phill D]

i understand the logic applied but, seems rubish to me. a vehicle weighs what it weighs at the time of a DVSA weight check.

ask them to provide the written evidence or reference to the section in law. they wont have it as its not correct.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Just been reading a post on Motorhome Happiness forum where someone says that DVSA have said that for each empty seat in your van you must add 75kg to the payload plus 10kg for possessions. Apparently the law changed last year. Responses have obviously said when you are weighed it is what you have now not what you might have. The author of the post says they were told this by both the DVSA and the company that uprated their van.
If this is so, then many of us that are careful to stay under our permitted 3500Kg are stuffed.

Surely, this cannot be right?
Needs looking at with some defining clarity.

 

[Bernie P]

I think that relates to the manufacturers stated payload (as mentioned elsewhere, think it was a Carthago thread). Manufacturers must make sure that the available payload allows for 75+10kg for each passenger seat fitted. So if the van has 4 seats the minimum payload stated by the manufacturer must be in excess of 3x85=255kg

 

[pappajohn]

Utter rubbish.
Do you add 225kg if there's only the driver in a car

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[Phill D]

it may well be EU guidelines to manufacturers to give users a fair chance to use teir full facilities, but it is not in law that when a van is in use the weight of people not in the van must be added to the actual physical weight when taken.

that suggestion is just complete misrepresentation of the information and facts.

 

[Jim]

Just been reading a post on Motorhome Happiness forum where someone says that DVSA have said that for each empty seat in your van you must add 75kg to the payload plus 10kg for possessions. Apparently the law changed last year. Responses have obviously said when you are weighed it is what you have now not what you might have. The author of the post says they were told this by both the DVSA and the company that uprated their van.
If this is so, then many of us that are careful to stay under our permitted 3500Kg are stuffed.

I think they are getting confused about this formula 10xL + 10xN + 75xP from The EU Directive for Masses and Dimensions which I'm not sure we even adhere to now. Point them toward this article. It will help

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/portal/average-motorhome-payload-requirement/

 

[Brains]

Utter rubbish.
Do you add 225kg if there's only the driver in a car

However the logic makes sense.

Just because there is only one person in the vehicle, who happens to be an anorexic dwarf, does not mean the driver is not on the way to pick up 3 mates, who happen to each weigh 75kg and each have a suitcase weighing 10kg

The vehicle should have enough spare capacity to take the normal expected load.

The Plod are regularly making it known that they are pulling over (mostly non UK registered) tarp sided vans with a tail lift registered at 3.5t.
If they are empty, most (but not all), are under 3.5t.
In reality they are down plated 5t or 7.5t vans that the owners do not want to employ C1 drivers of fit a tacho

If they then put a small cargo on board the vans are over weight.

 

[97243]

I think that relates to the manufacturers stated payload (as mentioned elsewhere, think it was a Carthago thread). Manufacturers must make sure that the available payload allows for 75+10kg for each passenger seat fitted. So if the van has 4 seats the minimum payload stated by the manufacturer must be in excess of 3x85=255kg

I get confused about the base weight - does it include the driver at 75kg, then you deduct that from 3500kg to get the payload ?

Edit Just read the article above - a little less confused now, but not much

 

[Jim]

I get confused about the base weight - does it include the driver at 75kg, then you deduct that from 3500kg to get the payload ?

This will help

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[Orion]

However the logic makes sense.

Just because there is only one person in the vehicle, who happens to be an anorexic dwarf, does not mean the driver is not on the way to pick up 3 mates, who happen to each weigh 75kg and each have a suitcase weighing 10kg

The vehicle should have enough spare capacity to take the normal expected load.

And who’s to say they’re not all intending to go on an anorexic dwarf club outing?

Seriously though, is it a law or regulation that states the situation as the OP appears to have been informed? Until any vehicle has been physically weighed and verified as overweight I’m at a loss to see what what any potential offence is.

 

[gus-lopez]

Utter rubbish.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[tacr2man]

Looks like another case of misunderstanding of what MIRO etc and then the "send 3/4pence were going to a dance " Weight enforcement by DVSA or an Authorised police officer are based on actuals with a percentage leeway, not possible scenarios

Consolidated code of practice: enforcement weighing of vehicles

www.gov.uk

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1187569/dvsa-enforcement-sanctions-policy.pdf

Section 10

 

[Pausim]

Just been reading a post on Motorhome Happiness forum where someone says that DVSA have said that for each empty seat in your van you must add 75kg to the payload plus 10kg for possessions. Apparently the law changed last year. Responses have obviously said when you are weighed it is what you have now not what you might have. The author of the post says they were told this by both the DVSA and the company that uprated their van.
If this is so, then many of us that are careful to stay under our permitted 3500Kg are stuffed.

A new EU Regulation with effect from June 2022 introduced a minimum payload figure. You do not add or subtract the 75kg plus 10kg to or from the payload. It is a separate calculation aimed at stopping manufacturers from selling vans with no payload. The payload remains the difference between the MIRO and the registered maximum mass. The minimum payload is based on length of van and number of travel seats and they are not supposed to sell new vans with less than the minimum payload.

 

[nicholsong]

Looks like another case of misunderstanding of what MIRO etc and then the "send 3/4pence were going to a dance " Weight enforcement by DVSA or an Authorised police officer are based on actuals with a percentage leeway, not possible scenarios

Consolidated code of practice: enforcement weighing of vehicles

www.gov.uk

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1187569/dvsa-enforcement-sanctions-policy.pdf

Section 10

This is interesting, in Section 10

"NON-COMMERCIAL DRIVERS

In genuine cases of ignorance e.g. moving house, and where the offence is unlikely to be repeated, a prohibition should be issued, and an overloading guidance leaflet handed to the driver. To take into account the Public Interest Test no Fixed Penalty Notice should be issued in these circumstances."

If that is all they do it is no wonder not many MHs are stopped by DVSA.

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[Stoosal]

This is interesting, in Section 10

"NON-COMMERCIAL DRIVERS

In genuine cases of ignorance e.g. moving house, and where the offence is unlikely to be repeated, a prohibition should be issued, and an overloading guidance leaflet handed to the driver. To take into account the Public Interest Test no Fixed Penalty Notice should be issued in these circumstances."

If that is all they do it is no wonder not many MHs are stopped by DVSA.

It does mean that the vehicle cannot move until excess weight is removed and re weighed by whoever issued prohibition. This could take a few hours and what do you do with the excess weight if it isn’t water etc. A ticket could have you back on the road in a short time. The removal of a prohibition is, in my view, a bigger kick!
It states no FP should be issued which means that a report to the prosecutor is the only option and if a prohibition is issued it is more than likely that you will be reported. It doesn’t mean that you are getting off with it, it’s more serious.

 

[tacr2man]

The prohibition has to be issued due to the weight , any penalty would not be in place of the PG9 . Then weight reduced and released from prohibition , how you sort out logistics of what you do with the removed items is your problem, not DVSA , call an UBER ?

 

[Pausim]

If there is a new UK regulation matching the EU one then it will have no impact on roadside enforcement of overloading. I was not aware we had a new UK regulation and neither it appears does Jim at #7 and he knows far more than me.

Having recently ordered a new Malibu Van I know that Carthago are applying the Minimum Payload calculation. The effect of this is that they do not allow you to specify extras that would take the payload below the Minimum level. The Malibu brochure now lists the maximum weight of additional equipment that can be added to each model. Also my order summary includes a figure saying how many kg of extra equipment remain available to me after allowing for what I have ordered.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

So, the charge would be "intent to overload the van", by having the potential to seat extra people, + their belongings.
As guidance for manufacturers it's a good policy, for users it's utter drivel.
Mike.

 

[Jim]

I've seen NCC Approved van just remove seatbelts. 75kg of payload commitment thrown in a drawer. If the new owner fits the seatbelt that's down to him, but it was sold with 3 travel seats not 4

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[Pausim]

So, the charge would be "intent to overload the van", by having the potential to seat extra people, + their belongings.
As guidance for manufacturers it's a good policy, for users it's utter drivel.
Mike.

What charge? It is up to you how you use the payload, if you don’t have passengers you can carry more stuff. I think you have just invented “intent to overload the van”. The EU regulation is about selling new motorhomes with too little payload. If the UK is following the same wording then all that has changed is that manufacturers are not allowed to sell vans with less than the Minimum Payload and customers are not allowed to order factory extras that would cut into the Minimum Payload.

Don’t panic!

 

[FrankNicklin]

If there is a new UK regulation matching the EU one then it will have no impact on roadside enforcement of overloading. I was not aware we had a new UK regulation and neither it appears does Jim at #7 and he knows far more than me.

Having recently ordered a new Malibu Van I know that Carthago are applying the Minimum Payload calculation. The effect of this is that they do not allow you to specify extras that would take the payload below the Minimum level. The Malibu brochure now lists the maximum weight of additional equipment that can be added to each model. Also my order summary includes a figure saying how many kg of extra equipment remain available to me after allowing for what I have ordered.

Its about time that manufacturers were 100% clear about the weight of a MH when it leaves the factory. There are too many can I, can't I situations with regards to payload. How many of us have actually weighed their MH at any point during ownership, not many I would guess. Once a vehicle rolls off the production line it should be weighed properly complete with all the customer added extras, but empty, no imaginary drivers, no water, no gas etc. Just the empty base vehicle and then you have a clear starting point. Dealer fitted options should require the vehicle to be re-weighted before sale at their expense. It is too late once you've parted with your hard-earned only to find that you have next to zero payload especially with MH's at 3500kg. Above that it is not much of an issue as long as the payload doesn't exceed the MH rating.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Is this just for new manufactured vans?
Does it affect the used market pre 2022?

 

[gus-lopez]

A ticket could have you back on the road in a short time.

as said you still get the prohibition.

call an UBER ?

That is what i would do. ring a cab load excess in ,go down road 20 miles ,load it back up.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

What charge? It is up to you how you use the payload, if you don’t have passengers you can carry more stuff. I think you have just invented “intent to overload the van”. The EU regulation is about selling new motorhomes with too little payload. If the UK is following the same wording then all that has changed is that manufacturers are not allowed to sell vans with less than the Minimum Payload and customers are not allowed to order factory extras that would cut into the Minimum Payload.

Don’t panic!

I wasn't panicking, what with 1300kg of payload I'm , unlikely to fall foul of my limit. It was a tongue in cheek response.
Mike.

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[tonyidle]

I don't understand any of this discussion. The regulation is very obviously aimed at manufacturers / converters in an attempt to improve payloads. So probably not enough but good news. For a motorhome owner the only relevant figures are MAM and axle weights. Payload is irrelevant as it is what it is unless it's changed by uprating. Purchasers have more to consider to ensure there's sufficient payload for their needs but once the vehicle is bought it's back to MAM and axle weights. The only way to ensure the vehicle is operating within the law is a visit to a weighbridge loaded ready for a holiday.

 

[Brains]

Its about time that manufacturers were 100% clear about the weight of a MH when it leaves the factory. There are too many can I, can't I situations with regards to payload.
How many of us have actually weighed their MH at any point during ownership, not many I would guess.
Once a vehicle rolls off the production line it should be weighed properly complete with all the customer added extras, but empty, no imaginary drivers, no water, no gas etc. Just the empty base vehicle and then you have a clear starting point. Dealer fitted options should require the vehicle to be re-weighted before sale at their expense. It is too late once you've parted with your hard-earned only to find that you have next to zero payload especially with MH's at 3500kg. Above that it is not much of an issue as long as the payload doesn't exceed the MH rating.

Mine is sold as a 3.5t in the EU.
Sold as a 3.8t in the UK.
(and can be up-plated to 4.1t without any mods needed)

It means I was not concerned about hitting the 3.5t barrier when I bought it.
But on my first trip out full loaded I went to a weighbridge.
It means I know I still have about 150kg spare, and 300kg spare if I ever need it by up-plating.
However the EU versions must be right on the top of the 3.5t limit.

But I agree, all motorhomes sold by dealers should come with a weigh bridge certificate

 

[Pausim]

How many of us have actually weighed their MH at any point during ownership, not many I would guess. Once a vehicle rolls off the production line it should be weighed properly complete with all the customer added extras

I had my last motorhome (2019) weighed by the dealer before I took delivery. He sent me a copy of the weigh bridge certificate. I have had it weighed several times since.

The only way a manufacturer can be sure of complying with the regulation is to do as you say and weigh it at the end of the construction process. This is what Malibu/Carthago do. Below is an extract from their brochure explaining this and what they will do if it ends up too heavy.

As Jim said at #20 above one of the options is reducing the number of travel seats. As this was an NCC approved van it suggests UK manufacturers are doing the same

 

[cyberyacht]

I've weighed mine a couple of times, always full of fuel and water and gear +OH, to obtain worst case scenario weight. I have four(?) travel seats but would only be able to add 1.3 passengers in exchange for the water. It would be nice to remove the passenger seatbelt framing as that must weigh a fair bit and it's just taking up space.

 

[97243]

We put our not fully laden 3500kg van on the local weighbridge a couple of weeks ago and it scaled 3700kg. Reducing the number of belted seats is not going to make it any more legal.

I did start a thread about it at the time, but as Brains has intimated above about his van, the same van as ours is sold in Germany plated at 3800kg.

At 3500kg, there should be 393kg of payload above PV, but clearly there is nothing like that. The German version at 693kg would be far more realistic.

If we want to travel fully laden and remain legal, we have no option but up up plate.