Motorhome Vehicle Excise Duty

[Deneb]

I have been giving this some thought..
Until such time as the technology reached the stage where we can drive 200(ish) miles, then recharge sufficient to do another 200 miles in a max of 15 minutes electric vehicles are unlikely to be a viable contender to an ICE ..
My idea, as muted some 6 years ago, of having standardised batteries that are swapped out automatically at 'gas stations' has to my knowledge never even been looked at
You pull into the garage over a pad. Pad slides away and the flat battery hooked out to be replaced with a charged unit
Flat battery automatically gets shunted off to be charged..
Using that method would negate the issue of cars being valueless after 8 years or so, would negate the issue of 'can I get there without having to stop for an hour or so' AND would lead to a standardised cost and the ability for garages to make profit in much the same was as they do with fuel

We discussed it several years ago at police and industry liaison security meetings and it was a topic that had been brought up for consideration at least 10 years ago. The main sticking points from the police and insurance sides were security and battery traceability. If the battery packs were that easy to change, at current values, unless they could be rendered traceable and identifiable in a way that could not be compromised by thieves, with a secure centralised traceability scheme that could attribute a specific battery pack to an individual vehicle in the same way that an engine is currently traceable; cars would be being stolen, jacked up or turned on their sides in the street to relieve them of their battery packs in the same way that catalytic converters and sometimes, lights, doors and other body panels etc. are stolen from parked vehicles now, but at much greater profit to the criminal and far greater cost to the industry as a whole.

I don't know what stage it might have progressed to now, if at all, as I retired and have been out of the loop for over 2 years. Getting competing manufacturers to agree on a standardised battery pack when they are all trying to gain the upper hand with development of competing technologies is another big problem that would probably need legislation to resolve.

 

[PeteH]

And then the year before VED would have been free on my Capri when it became 25 years old, they changed the exemption to 40 years old, so I had to keep paying the higher PLG rate on that as well.

Currently Built before Jan 1st 1979.

 

[Deneb]

Currently Built before Jan 1st 1979.

Yes. It will change to 1st January 1980 when the new rate tables are introduced from 1st April 2020. Like I said, 40 years

 

[PeteH]

Yes. It will change to 1st January 1980 when the new rate tables are introduced from 1st April 2020. Like I said, 40 years

Mine is reg 1st Jan 1971.

 

[romany]

Got to be good for the caravan manufacturers though as they will be the beneficiaries. Some will hold on to the existing vehicles, some will by 2nd hand (which will keep values up) and a large proportion of first timers in particular, will surely go for a caravan instead?

Although Swift also make caravans.....

or 5th wheelers

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[gus-lopez]

Still think they should abolish road tax and all the costly administration that goes with it and put it on the fuel. That way,noone escapes.

Yes but unfortunately the government are far too greedy to do it.
If they did it would add 23p/litre to the average price to eqate to the government getting the same amount of tax. Or it did when I last worked it out.

 

[Deneb]

Mine is reg 1st Jan 1971.

Mine was built in July 73. I sold her 4 years ago. She was sold again a few months ago for 48K I'm told

 

[Jaws]

The main sticking points from the police and insurance sides were security and battery traceability.

What a ludicrous point to get stuck on.
Next time a lorry looses a 1000 litres of diesel round the back of me, I will see it is OK as it is traceable

 

[Deneb]

Got to be good for the caravan manufacturers though as they will be the beneficiaries. Some will hold on to the existing vehicles, some will by 2nd hand (which will keep values up) and a large proportion of first timers in particular, will surely go for a caravan instead?

Although Swift also make caravans.....

Poor caravan sales was the reason they gave last November for the problems that led to the current closure.

 

[Deneb]

What a ludicrous point to get stuck on.
Next time a lorry looses a 1000 litres of diesel round the back of me, I will see it is OK as it is traceable

Not when you're trying to prevent or have to pay for autocrime, or as a vehicle manufacturer have to meet the traceability requirements for group insurance ratings.

One of the last cases I was involved in before I retired involved over £2.5 million cost to insurers in less than a year. Not bad for 4 scrotes from a council estate and most of that would have gone undetected without the kind of traceability that's now required.

The overall cost of vehicle theft was around £380 million last year, an increase of over 30% on 2017. The cost of fuel theft was around £1.7 million, which included domestic as well as vehicle fuel.

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[PeteH]

Yes but unfortunately the government are far too greedy to do it.
If they did it would add 23p/litre to the average price to eqate to the government getting the same amount of tax. Or it did when I last worked it out.

And of course, the VAT on the 23p plus the Fuel tax?

 

[Wild Brambles]

as "vans" are now classed as cars can we now park where it says no motorhomes allowed !!!! and when plodette's arrive to move you on you can argue that you are a car because that's how the DVLA/goverment see it .

East Hants are covering themselves by referring to Motor Homes or vehicles modified for sleeping. That's the new restriction on Hayling Island beaches. It doesn't affect me, because banana boxes don't count as modifications. I'll probably still be OK when I upgrade to a trunk.

 

[Theonlysue]

Yes but unfortunately the government are far too greedy to do it.
If they did it would add 23p/litre to the average price to eqate to the government getting the same amount of tax. Or it did when I last worked it out.

More like 2.3p a litre I think.

 

[Jaws]

Not when you're trying to prevent or have to pay for autocrime, or as a vehicle manufacturer have to meet the traceability requirements for group insurance ratings.

One of the last cases I was involved in before I retired involved over £2.5 million cost to insurers in less than a year. Not bad for 4 scrotes from a council estate and most of that would have gone undetected without the kind of traceability that's now required.

The overall cost of vehicle theft was around £380 million last year, an increase of over 30% on 2017. The cost of fuel theft was around £1.7 million, which included domestic as well as vehicle fuel.

My point stands.. A battery is no different as far as power source to a belly tank full of diesel, yet no one is whinging saying it has got to be traceable
In fact a battery can be made 100% traceable where as diesel is not

 

[GWAYGWAY]

What a ludicrous point to get stuck on.
Next time a lorry looses a 1000 litres of diesel round the back of me, I will see it is OK as it is traceable

Now we know how you rub your van then??

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[MyrtleGuru]

U-turn sought on 'poorly judged' motorhome tax

Budget hope for 'mobile bedroom tax' that alongside crisis in consumer confidence is hitting manufacturers and retailers

www.business-live.co.uk

 

[Deneb]

My point stands.. A battery is no different as far as power source to a belly tank full of diesel, yet no one is whinging saying it has got to be traceable
In fact a battery can be made 100% traceable where as diesel is not

The fact that it's a power source isn't that relevant. It would be a relatively easily removable part of a vehicle costing several thousand pounds to replace. It would be even more desirable to thieves if it was a standard unit that could be fitted in any vehicle on the market.

Most car owners seem to prefer not to have petrol or diesel drained out of their tank. They seem to get even more upset if £1K of cat is cut off the car, or they leave work to find half the car missing whilst it was left in a car park. I suspect £8K worth of battery pack would compound the misery.

Of course, they could probably buy a used replacement more cheaply from an internet auction site, but the chances are they end up buying one that's already been stolen from someone else, which continues to feed the cycle and makes them even more desirable to steal, as with a substantial number of used car parts now.

We'll probably never agree. If your personal experience is never having been a victim of crime or perhaps once in your lifetime, it's probably an inconvenience at the time, although a lot more distressing to others, but you'll eventually get over it. If you see it happening to thousands of victims a year, it does create a different perspective and any opportunity to design out or substantially reduce the problem needs serious consideration IMO.

 

[Jaws]

Now we know how you rub your van then??

Nahhh too dodgy that.. I have a sneaky pipe from next doors heating oil tank !

 

[Jaws]

The fact that it's a power source isn't that relevant. It would be a relatively easily removable part of a vehicle costing several thousand pounds to replace. It would be even more desirable to thieves if it was a standard unit that could be fitted in any vehicle on the market.

Most car owners seem to prefer not to have petrol or diesel drained out of their tank. They seem to get even more upset if £1K of cat is cut off the car, or they leave work to find half the car missing whilst it was left in a car park. I suspect £8K worth of battery pack would compound the misery.

Of course, they could probably buy a used replacement more cheaply from an internet auction site, but the chances are they end up buying one that's already been stolen from someone else, which continues to feed the cycle and makes them even more desirable to steal, as with a substantial number of used car parts now.

We'll probably never agree. If your personal experience is never having been a victim of crime or perhaps once in your lifetime, it's probably an inconvenience at the time, although a lot more distressing to others, but you'll eventually get over it. If you see it happening to thousands of victims a year, it does create a different perspective and any opportunity to design out or substantially reduce the problem needs serious consideration IMO.

OK, so what would be the point of nicking one ?
One supplied with every car, effectively everlasting as every time you go to a garage you get a different one

 

[Deneb]

OK, so what would be the point of nicking one ?
One supplied with every car, effectively everlasting as every time you go to a garage you get a different one

Recycling value, as with cats only greater. As with cats, if not traceable, easily disposable with very little risk of detection. Market value outside of the automotive sector - Renault for instance already supply their EV batteries that have degraded to the limit of automotive use, for installation in building and other infrastructure battery banks until they reach full end of life and are sent for recycling. If you owned a battery bank that needed new batteries and could get them cheaper either directly or indirectly through a black market in stolen units, you might be tempted, especially if you could get one from a fairly new vehicle which offered more capacity and better performance than those that had already reached EV end of life and were being supplied through legitimate sources.

If battery design became universal, the attractiveness of individual batteries would also increase exponentially as the market widened.

There's also the underground vehicle repair market that thrives in this country. For example, car written off by an insurance company as uneconomical to repair due to the cost of legitimate replacement parts and/or labour, and battery pack damaged. Insurer pays claim to owner and takes possession of the salvage, which it sells to the salvage/recycling contractor with whom it has a contract. The salvage company advertise the car for auction as repairable salvage and sell it to the highest bidder, who employs one of two main methods to "repair" it. The first involves either stealing a similar car and stripping it or stealing the parts from a similar car to repair the salvage and sell it, still with its legitimate identity but possible not repaired to satisfactory standards. The second involves removing the identity from the stolen car and transferring the identity of the salvage onto it, then selling the stolen car as the repaired salvage car. Either way, the "repair" has realised a profit for the repairer, which could never be achieved legitimately.

There would also be issues with the garage exchange scheme. They could possibly be worked through, but it would take time and agreement from a lot of interested parties, and possibly legislation to force adoption. When I said we had discussed it, routine and regular battery exchange wasn't envisaged; we were concerned with replacement of end of life battery packs.

But with a regular charged battery exchange scheme, who pays and how does it work?

The garage would have to make a charge for the service. They would also want to be satisfied that the battery they were taking out of your car was serviceable with no defects. Would you need to wait whilst they tested that after removing it from the car? What would be the guarantee on the performance on condition of the replacement battery? If you drive out of the showroom with a brand new EV and battery pack, and 200 miles later you pull in to a service station to exchange it for a replacement that still meets the in service criteria but has degraded to the extent that it only offers 80% of the new battery's capacity and performance, would you be happy? What happens to the manufacturer's warranty on the vehicle and new battery pack supplied to you with the car?

The battery monitoring and operating system on the vehicle would have to be reset and reprogrammed each time the battery is replaced. Currently, there is a "standard" garage charge of around £60 - £100 or more every time a diagnostic device is connected to a customer's vehicle, plus additional charges for reprogramming. Who would be expected to pay for that? Many EV battery systems are connected via IoT to the vehicle manufacturer for monitoring. How would that be managed? Each time the battery was replaced, the vehicle would take some time and several charge cycles to give an accurate battery life indication. Accuracy would be much poorer if the battery was replaced each charge cycle as the vehicle could never adapt to the exact condition and capacity of the replacement battery before it was replaced again. The driver might be relying on an estimate of 40 miles range remaining when the vehicle shut down unexpectedly due to loss of power.

Possibly a diagnostic system similar to EOBD would have to be mandated in legislation so that the exchange station could determine the history and condition of the battery they were receiving before exchanging it.

Would the customer need to subscribe to the scheme? Say a several thousand pounds deposit was required, refundable if or when you leave the scheme, but forfeited in whole or part if the battery you exchange has reached end of life or developed a fault whilst in your car? Another situation where the vehicle owner might be tempted to source an illegitimate replacement battery before returning to a service station so that his or her deposit wasn't forfeited. And if you were the owner of a car from which your battery had been stolen, you would need to source a replacement too.

Everything on a car has a value, even secondhand. And thieves know that they can make more profit from selling parts than trying to dispose of a whole vehicle, with much less risk of detection.

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