Motorhome Toilet Emptied On Beach.

[johnp10]

The issue is that there will be a subconscious link between this dumping and the mess created by travellers. So a fair trial /hearing is not going to happen.
If anything I suspect the rules may get tougher.
reap what one sows

The issue is exactly who is sowing what?

If the report is anecdotal and unproven it needs addressing just as much as if it were true.
The site warden making the report must be brought to task to show who, where and when.
Recording a vehicle registration number isn't difficult.
If the report is shown to be true, the vehicle owner must be brought to book.

 

[JackieP]

I smell something.

And it isn’t a chemical toilet.

 

[SpeedyDux]

The issue is that there will be a subconscious link between this dumping and the mess created by travellers. So a fair trial /hearing is not going to happen.
If anything I suspect the rules may get tougher.
reap what one sows

True enough. If the anecdotal / fake news stories about antisocial MHs are repeated often enough, they resonate with other stories of mess left by Travellers and other could-not-care-less litterbugs who create eyesores. Banning becomes a vote winner, so no need to spend any money to improve facilities.

 

[John Mee]

There are elements in society who don't give a damn, simply couldn't give a toss. They have had a nice day, had a BBQ, a few cans, and can't be bothered to find a bin, someone else will clear it up - oh, and we'll have to find somewhere to empty the toilet - no one's looking.

I walk the dogs on the headland and beach every day and there is always someones rubbish to clear up - a BBQ today. And, as for dog mess, well...........

There will always be the selfish, uncaring and thoughtless amongst us. This country has developed an attitude that is not seen in a lot of other countries. Having said that, Spain and Corfu can be sh1t holes in the countryside.

 

[nicholsong]

If anecdotal 'evidence' without substantive supporting evidence were the only basis for creating a by-law I think it would be open to Judicial Review. Although who is going to spend time and money on it? Like-minded groups who have come together to form reprsentative associations might, but the motorhoming fraternity have not done this.

There are other ways of attacking these apparent vested interest of Councillors, e.g. by having the Chair ban them from voting on the issues, but that would require a request by a local Council Tax payer, not a stranger, and local MH owners do not usually wish to park in their own borough.

Geoff

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[tonyidle]

Littering is unfortunately not confined to uncaring thoughtless yobs of any age. It is a mindset. I watched a group of pleasant youngsters having an impromptu bbq / picnic (I was playing with my dog). Chatting with the group was a local bobby. One of them turned to leave, said his goodbyes, and simply dropped the food and drink containers he had been using and walked off. The group were within 3 metres of a waste bin. No comments or eyebrows raised by anyone including the (young) Policeman.

 

[jezport]

When these stories come out there is never proof, photographic or otherwise. There are never prosecutions, and the so called witness usually has connections with a nearby camp site.

If and when car users throw soiled nappies out on a car park or urinate at the car park there is never a campaign to ban cars from the car park.

If an offence really is being committed by a motorhomer, in this day and age of smart phones and the internet I find it strange no-one has been filmed and shamed on utube like all the bad drivers.

Something stinks here....................

 

[sdc77]

IF this happened then I think the culprit should be prosecuted ( or preferably shot!)

We've enjoyed staying on Black Rock sands.

Before the FLT chants start -

1, We have no problem paying for stuff that is good/worth it.

2, We left no waste of any kind.

3, We've also stayed on some of the campsites and they re pretty poor. None of them have a sea view - like barmouth they re behind the dunes.

Its about time the council upped their game and started trying to tempt more motorhomes etc. by offering modern world solutions not crappy old campsites that have barely changed since the war.

We were in Barmouth yesterday afternoon and the parking was more or less empty. there is a large carpark at the end of the prom which was totally empty yet overnight staying is banned. Instead you are expected to stay in the campsite which has a pretty poor access, very cramped and totally hidden from the beach by the railway line - attractive? Not.

Although I agree with your sentiments... wouldn't it be nice if the council provided parking/facilities ..... why should they? Do they need to? They are certainly not obliged to and the cost involved is something I am sure they would rather spend on something the local people want/need.
I'm in no doubt that stuff gets dumped there as it does in most places ... I don't need evidence and neither do the council.
If they see no big financial advantage in providing facilities or just parking then why bother.
There are (crappy old) campsites that I bet are rammed in the summer and there will be hotels and B&Bs bringing in the tourists.

 

[movan]

Have stopped in laybys many times and collected rubbish on my way to put mine in the bin. After local cars have stopped in the evening for their luv ins or whatever .. .. the layby is once more full of chip papers and coffee cups ... etc. Quite sure I would be blamed by anyone driving past.

 

[GJH]

Leaving aside whether or not toilet cassettes were emptied, the sheer fact that so many people are knowingly ignoring the no overnighting rule is plenty in itself to give the council the wrong impression - that too many motorhomers are FLTs who are too tight to use caravan sites when they are available
I'll bet not one of the motorhomers concerned has even bothered approaching the council to discuss provision of an aire type facility as an alternative.
It is no wonder that councils get the wrong impression - and no amount of excuses will change that.

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[jongood]

Leaving aside whether or not toilet cassettes were emptied, the sheer fact that so many people are knowingly ignoring the no overnighting rule is plenty in itself to give the council the wrong impression - that too many motorhomers are FLTs who are too tight to use caravan sites when they are available
I'll bet not one of the motorhomers concerned has even bothered approaching the council to discuss provision of an aire type facility as an alternative.
It is no wonder that councils get the wrong impression - and no amount of excuses will change that.

Conversely if the councils were properly business-minded they might see an opportunity to charge for otherwise empty car parks.

 

[2plus2]

I recently witnessed a motorhome owner emptying his toilet in the bushes on the car park at Aberdovey beach. When I challenged him he just laughed. I sent the picture of his vehicle and reg to the local council. I will not be tarnished by these unscrupulous motor home owners who will ruin it for all of us

 

[GJH]

Conversely if the councils were properly business-minded they might see an opportunity to charge for otherwise empty car parks.

And - as I'm sick and tired of having to repeat - that ignores the fact that the car park may not be suitable for all sorts of reasons, including regular use by heavy vehicles.
Every case needs to be looked at on its merits, not pre-judged to accord with wants.

 

[jongood]

And - as I'm sick and tired of having to repeat - that ignores the fact that the car park may not be suitable for all sorts of reasons, including regular use by heavy vehicles.
Every case needs to be looked at on its merits, not pre-judged to accord with wants.

Most people would agree that there are a lot of car parks that are not big enough or the access is too restricted for use by Motorhomes, but there are plenty of car parks that are suitable for use by Motorhomes.

I dont agree regarding surfaces (with my HGV experience hat on) the majority of carpark surfaces would cope with the minor additional weight of motorhomes. IMHO its over 7.5t tonnes where it becomes a bit more of an issue.

The French (and others) actively control Motorhome parking in popular areas by directing you to them and then charge appropriately.

 

[GJH]

I dont agree regarding surfaces (with my HGV experience hat on) the majority of carpark surfaces would cope with the minor additional weight of motorhomes. IMHO its over 7.5t tonnes where it becomes a bit more of an issue.

You are entitled to your opinion but my statement is based on facts, not opinion - facts obtained from discussing the matter with engineers in charge of LA car parks. It is not just the surface but also the foundation structure which matters. Most car parks are designed to cope with passenger cars, the vast majority of which are under 2 tonnes, and councils build them to that specification rather than loading the extra cost of over-specification on their taxpayers.

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[jongood]

You are entitled to your opinion but my statement is based on facts, not opinion - facts obtained from discussing the matter with engineers in charge of LA car parks. It is not just the surface but also the foundation structure which matters. Most car parks are designed to cope with passenger cars, the vast majority of which are under 2 tonnes, and councils build them to that specification rather than loading the extra cost of over-specification on their taxpayers.

I used to own a parcel and courier company that ran trucks and vans and we were frequently in and out of car parks ( sometimes with artics) Those plain doors that are at the edges of many town carparks are in the main delivery doors. Ever notice the hatched loading areas? or the please dont obstruct this entrance signs?

I also question whether its possible to construct a surface that would cope with cars but not 5 tonnes?

 

[GJH]

I used to own a parcel and courier company that ran trucks and vans and we were frequently in and out of car parks ( sometimes with artics) Those plain doors that are at the edges of many town carparks are in the main delivery doors. Ever notice the hatched loading areas? or the please dont obstruct this entrance signs?

I also question whether its possible to construct a surface that would cope with cars but not 5 tonnes?

Offhand I can think of delivery yards in this area but not car parks with such features. Certainly not car parks in general. On the other hand I can think of several car parks serving suburban shopping parades which are regularly damaged by delivery drivers who find it more convenient to deliver through the front of shops rather than take the time to use the delivery bays at the rear.

 

[Ingwe]

Part of the problem with this type of behaviour is the reluctance (understandable) to confront the offender. The risk of violence is ever present. I don't know whether there are cultural differences between us and our European neighbours but something we witnessed in Greece suggests that social pressure without threat of physical repercussions works well.
We were parked at beautiful beach along with a dozen or so other vans. We were the only UK van. The parking was at the end of a row of small tavernas on the main street of a village.
We had just finished our supper, it was just getting dark, when an awful pong spread over the area. Our German neighbour came over and told us the smell was caused by a French van owner who had emptied two cassettes onto the beach. The German was outraged, as were we, and we went and knocked on the offender's door. He eventually opened it and was told in no uncertain terms that what he'd done was anti-social and unacceptable. He said his cassettes were full and what was he supposed to do? The German replied that he should take steps to empty his cassettes appropriately at an earlier point but that basically, his problem with his toilet shouldn't become ours' and the Greek village's problem.
There was no aggression, just forcefully put argument, including pointing out that the village tolerated this free parking, including use of two taps for fresh water and was very welcoming. They didn't deserve to have their home polluted by inconsiderate visitors.
With that, the offender went out with a spade and buried the filth before shamefacedly going inside his van.
Of course one would hope for such actions not to happen at all, but if they do, it should be the norm to confront people without fear of escalating to a punch-up or worse.
Phew! Missive over.

 

[jongood]

Offhand I can think of delivery yards in this area but not car parks with such features. Certainly not car parks in general. On the other hand I can think of several car parks serving suburban shopping parades which are regularly damaged by delivery drivers who find it more convenient to deliver through the front of shops rather than take the time to use the delivery bays at the rear.

Sorry been busy all day ; maybe its not so prevalent in your area but I could take you to a lot of car parks with delivery access. This serves to underline the point that - while not all car parks are suitable it still leaves a lot that are.

Ive also thought some more about your point about 'only being suitable for the weight of cars' ASFAIK most carparks are constructed and serviced using heavy vehicles, they re surely not going to make a car park that the cherry pickers/dustbin lorries/snowploughs etc cant go in and bearing in mind the weapon of choice for delivering tarmac is either 26 or 31 tonnes, how is that going to work. I would suggest that carparks in the UK where the surfaces cant cope with a motorhome would be an incredibly small proportion.

 

[gwyntaxi]

as i put on the other thread...

whilst im not condoning the alleged actions at all...i will say that this line is very familiar from local newspapers on a number of places along that coast, none of which have ever been supported by any evidence.

In one place further down the coast it was actually proved by a local resident that it was the warden/owner of a local campsite who was creating the problem as they were actually loosing business

And not only in a NUMBER of places along that coast, a NUMBER of places in various parts of the country, again it's probably something to do with a campsite owner or local.

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[gwyntaxi]

I was thinking the same.
All this relies on "a claim" that someone dumped black waste on a beach.
Whilst it's believable, there seems to be a lack, even an absence, of evidence, as you point out.

Everything hangs on a report by a warden from a local campsite.
Vested interest?

It's the same old story, complain to someone in authority about a couple of innocent motorhomers overnighting near some beach or beauty spot or heaven forbid,near a campsite, and they would be met with a response such if they aren't committing any crimes or some similar response, then the only way to ensure the desired result would be to "embroider" the complaint, and once they mention cassette, black waste it's game over, up go the "no motorhomes between 11pm-8am" or even NO MOTORHOMES" so they get the desired result. Seen it happen here in South Wales, and no doubt will happen all over the country wherever there are desirable parking spots.

 

[GJH]

Sorry been busy all day ; maybe its not so prevalent in your area but I could take you to a lot of car parks with delivery access. This serves to underline the point that - while not all car parks are suitable it still leaves a lot that are.

Ive also thought some more about your point about 'only being suitable for the weight of cars' ASFAIK most carparks are constructed and serviced using heavy vehicles, they re surely not going to make a car park that the cherry pickers/dustbin lorries/snowploughs etc cant go in and bearing in mind the weapon of choice for delivering tarmac is either 26 or 31 tonnes, how is that going to work. I would suggest that carparks in the UK where the surfaces cant cope with a motorhome would be an incredibly small proportion.

I can only repeat, my statement is based on facts, not opinion - facts obtained from discussing the matter with engineers in charge of LA car parks.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I can only repeat, my statement is based on facts, not opinion - facts obtained from discussing the matter with engineers in charge of LA car parks.

Without wishing to be pedantic but you have spoken to LA Engineers.
Unless you have seen the spec and drawings they could tell you what they want.
It’s not unusual by some in the LA to tell people things that may not be totally correct in fact.
There’s me with my cynical head onnagain

 

[jongood]

I can only repeat, my statement is based on facts, not opinion - facts obtained from discussing the matter with engineers in charge of LA car parks.

I do not believe it would be possible to lay a tarmac carpark that would not cope with the average Motorhome. The machinery they use to do the job weighs far more.

Without wishing to be pedantic but you have spoken to LA Engineers.
Unless you have seen the spec and drawings they could tell you what they want.
It’s not unusual by some in the LA to tell people things that may not be totally correct in fact.
There’s me with my cynical head onnagain

I agree, I think they are lying too.

 

[GJH]

Without wishing to be pedantic but you have spoken to LA Engineers.
Unless you have seen the spec and drawings they could tell you what they want.
It’s not unusual by some in the LA to tell people things that may not be totally correct in fact.
There’s me with my cynical head onnagain

I do not believe it would be possible to lay a tarmac carpark that would not cope with the average Motorhome. The machinery they use to do the job weighs far more.



I agree, I think they are lying too.

Branding people liars just because they tell you something you don't want to hear is pathetic.
Some of the engineers are people I knew personally and know I could trust to tell me the truth.

You could, of course, undertake research to try to prove your points if you are confident enough.

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[Silver-Fox]

Branding people liars just because they tell you something you don't want to hear is pathetic.
Some of the engineers are people I knew personally and know I could trust to tell me the truth.

You could, of course, undertake research to try to prove your points if you are confident enough.

It was an observation that you took information on trust given to you.

I’ve dealt with some in LA that have been less than straight in their information.
Be it I’ll informed or just their version of information that I don’t know.

I’m not bothered about parking in car parks or gaining access, I’m happy using supermarket car parks for my needs.
If a town or city doesn’t want to provide parking spaces I’ll move on somewhere else.

Regarding the construction of car parks I would hazard a guess most are constructed to highways spec and over engineered.

 

[Silver-Fox]

As a point of interest in my job I used to be involed in the enabling works for mobile phone aerials.
Very often we would lay a temporary/permanent road down for our heavy traffic. This would be 60 tonne cranes and 30 tonne concrete wagons.
The road would be around 200 to 300 deep type one compacted very often on green field sites.
In my two years we never lost a wagon to poor road.

 

[sdc77]

So that's settled then ... unless @GJH built the car park himself with his own fair hand and provides certified copies of all plans and material specs on demand then car parks can be assumed to be ok for motorhomes ... even if they don't want to stay in them.
I was tempted to say "doh" but didnt...

Oh wait ...

 

[GJH]

It was an observation that you took information on trust given to you.

I’ve dealt with some in LA that have been less than straight in their information.
Be it I’ll informed or just their version of information that I don’t know.

I’m not bothered about parking in car parks or gaining access, I’m happy using supermarket car parks for my needs.
If a town or city doesn’t want to provide parking spaces I’ll move on somewhere else.

Regarding the construction of car parks I would hazard a guess most are constructed to highways spec and over engineered.

Telling words "I would hazard a guess".
If councils give false information in response to a FoI request they lay themselves open to action by the ICO. Information can, therefore, normally be trusted.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Telling words "I would hazard a guess".
If councils give false information in response to a FoI request they lay themselves open to action by the ICO. Information can, therefore, normally be trusted.

Any chance you can post up pictures of the drawings you have been shown or the specs for the car parks you have enquirer about.
Just as an interest

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