Motorhome payload and MIRO help

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

We have a 2000/2001 fiat Ducato 1.9td coachbulit motorhome with 6 fitted seatbelts.
4 are inertia type forward facing and 2 are lap belts rear facing.
Our layout is mid table to seat 4, with a second table and 2 opposite single seats to the near side rear.
Bathroom is to the rear and kitchen is mid van nearside, opposite the 4 person table and seating.
To the front is the overcab bed.
What details we have state this is a 5 berth ( 2 overcab double / treble - ? it’s massive), 2 on the double mid dinette and a single at the rear on the single dinette.
There are usually only 2 of us plus a small dog travelling, but occasionally could be 4 , split 2 adults and 2 small children under 9 years, plus the dog.
I have looked at the vin plate under the bonnet and the following is recorded on the plate:
1. 3200kg
2. 4800kg
3. 1690kg
4. 1750kg.
I have been following the supposedly motorhome payload scandal discussions and the details as posted by Jim with the 180kg guide given for essentials, but I am unsure how to work out the MIRO and don’t know what this even is.
The van was bought pre owned and with a sort of generic produced instructions, which to be fair are fairly good and informative , BUT...
The stated maximum unladen mass is 2605kg
The stated maximum gross mass is 3400kg
The stated payload is 796kg
The stated towing weight is 850kg
The paperwork we have has / was part produced in conjunction with the importing and selling dealers and is a generalisation of instructions taken from motorhomes available around this time of manufacture.
Our conversion is a Ci camping car and the model is known as an Arabella, supplied when new by Don Amott leisure, Burton.
The paperwork does contain some very good guidelines on loading and weights, but having seen the great interest in payloads and potential problems with insurance and the law, I want to be absolutely accurate and understand what we can carry and most importantly, legally and safely.
Sorry if this is a long post but having had some excellent advice from Funsters to other topics, I have tried to be as detailed as possible to avoid further questions, which I really should have detailed in the first place with my post in way of an explanation.
I am confident I can work out what weights extras will be, and will be very strict on my calculations.
We have no sat tv, levelling system, fixed side awning cassette or other, and no oven, but we do take a purpose made microwave,
Don’t take bikes but have a bike rack at the rear and don’t bother with a TV either.
All other items are easily covered in Jim’s 180kg essential list.
If anyone can help me with the MIRO or give me advice on my actual usable payload based on the VIN plate details, I would be very grateful.
ManyThanks
Iain

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Forget about mass in running order. What's included varies from year to year.
Its mind blowing.
As you pay private light goods road tax total weight will be under 3.5t.
So going by the figures you've mentioned, max weight sound like 3 2t.
Put your bits in, your water, fuel passengers and anything else, and go to a weigh bridge.
That will tell you exactly where you are with your weight.
If it's over the 3.2t you can check if you can upplate.
If you go up to 3.5t, you can drive on car licence.
If you go over 3.5t, make sure you have the right licence to drive, and the road tax is cheaper.

Thanks sue
I can drive a 7.5 tonne on my licence issued in 1978 plus a whole host of other equipment.
Seems I at have opened a hornet's nest here, but you can bet your life that if the docs are wrong in the eyes of the law, I will be the one in trouble not DVLA.
By the way, who are SV tech?
Cheers

 

[Lenny HB]

Nope Lenny, no weights are on the V5 other than under F1. Max. Permissable mass

F1 is the MAM or Gross weight so what does it say?

By the way, who are SV tech?

Welcome

We are the UK’s leading vehicle re-rating specialist and experts in all matters relating to Vehicle Type Approval, particularly braking systems. We Support a Range of Vehicles We Provide an Accurate, Quality Service

www.svtech.co.uk

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

The sum of our 'van is 3750Kgs but SV Tech would only up the MGW to 3700Kgs. I doubt they would up the OP weight to 3440Kgs. Someone, somewhere has already upped it to 3400Kgs but the OP can't find the 'Plate.

Just a thought Captain Yoghurtpot You haven't got, have you, in all that paperwork, a piece of paper measuring about 6" x 4" that has the details of the VIN No. of your 'van with a set of 4 numbers similar to the plate under your bonnet.

The Plate does not need to be metal. SV Tech issue a Plate that is paper to attach somewhere on the 'van.

It occured that you in fact may have a 'Plate' that has been issued by a team like SV Tech who have provided the technical expertise to produce a Plate for onward submission to DVLA.

Am frantically looking but can't find this paper type of plate but thanks for the suggestion.
Still looking on van though.
And can't understand how a vehicle that's had 4 owners would ever get this far in 19 years without the full recorded details being implemented by DVLA!

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

F1 is the MAM or Gross weight so what does it say?

Welcome

We are the UK’s leading vehicle re-rating specialist and experts in all matters relating to Vehicle Type Approval, particularly braking systems. We Support a Range of Vehicles We Provide an Accurate, Quality Service

www.svtech.co.uk

Thanks LENNY, and it has no recorded figure alongside those boxes

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[Lenny HB]

Thanks LENNY, and it has no recorded figure alongside those boxes

As there is no Revenue weight either someone at DVLA has cocked up as without a revenue weight they can't set the VED for a Motorhome. So they must have a record of but it will be impossible for the idiots at DVLA to find it.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Am frantically looking but can't find this paper type of plate but thanks for the suggestion.
Still looking on van though.
And can't understand how a vehicle that's had 4 owners would ever get this far in 19 years without the full recorded details being implemented by DVLA!

So what now?
Is my insurance legal?
Is the vehicle legal.
Is my MOT valid?
Can I still drive my vehicle legally?
It's taxed, mot'd and fully insured, serviced and has a current hab certification and I have a licence to drive it.
Just don't have, apparently, the correct paperwork.

 

[Emmit]

To misquote Eric Morecambe,
" You have the correct paperwork but not necessarily in the right place"

Providing that you do not exceed the MGW. of 3200Kgs and you continue to have Ins. and it is taxed there is no problem.

Just a suggestion.
Take a copy of the V5. (For whatever God you have, don't send the original) and send it, along with a copy of anything else that gives you the idea it has been uprated and send it to Swansea, along with a letter, pointing out that;
1. You'd like the GVW to be 3400Kgs, and
2. Ask them why there is no entry on your V5 (There should be)

You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Allanm]

Checked v5 document and weights are not recorded anywhere on the document other than engine size , classed as 2 axle rigid body private light goods (PLG) motor caravan , powered by heavy oil. And white in colour.
All engine numbers match, so what am I missing?

Don’t worry about the V5 not having the revenue weight on it, our old 1998 Swift didn’t and the Vin plate showed it as 3400kg which tied in correctly with the amount of road tax I paid.
As your Vin plate shows MAM as being 3200kg, your combined axle weights allow a max of 3440kg and (depending on weighbridge results) it is theoretically possible to increase the max weight to 3400kg using SVTech or the other chap ( forget the name but we used him)
No need to inform DVLA as they don’t know the revenue weight anyway and you will still be under the magic 3500kg.

And Yes, you are driving it legally so everything in your list is OK

 

[busbuddy]

as has been said before, have you checked your reg online yet to see if there is a weight on the .gov website?

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[Captain Yoghurtpot]

To misquote Eric Morecambe,
" You have the correct paperwork but not necessarily in the right place"

Providing that you do not exceed the MGW. of 3200Kgs and you continue to have Ins. and it is taxed there is no problem.

Just a suggestion.
Take a copy of the V5. (For whatever God you have, don't send the original) and send it, along with a copy of anything else that gives you the idea it has been uprated and send it to Swansea, along with a letter, pointing out that;
1. You'd like the GVW to be 3400Kgs, and
2. Ask them why there is no entry on your V5 (There should be)

You may be pleasantly surprised.

Thank you Emmit.
Feeling a bit calmer now.
As Baldrick might have said,” I have a cunning plan”
Yes, I had come to the conclusion of working on 3200kg and I will be attempting to do as you suggest in due course.
I don’t think the van has been added too in the past other than having a camping car package ( the actual motorhome build) and the updated camping car suspension.
I have had a look at our requirements equipment wise and potential passengers and for what we will be doing, I think we can cope at 3200kg, providing the payload we have some notice of at 796kg is accurate.
But I will get it weighed anyway.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

as has been said before, have you checked your reg online yet to see if there is a weight on the .gov website?

Yes I have checked dvla for taxation classification and that is as my v5 says, but not checked via reg.no
Will look at that now.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Don’t worry about the V5 not having the revenue weight on it, our old 1998 Swift didn’t and the Vin plate showed it as 3400kg which tied in correctly with the amount of road tax I paid.
As your Vin plate shows MAM as being 3200kg, your combined axle weights allow a max of 3440kg and (depending on weighbridge results) it is theoretically possible to increase the max weight to 3400kg using SVTech or the other chap ( forget the name but we used him)
No need to inform DVLA as they don’t know the revenue weight anyway and you will still be under the magic 3500kg.

And Yes, you are driving it legally so everything in your list is OK

Thanks Allanm, will try and work to 3200kg for now, which seems perfectly plausible if the payload at 796kg is accurate.
I calculate it thus: MAM at 3200kg less 796kg payload = 2404kg= MIRO.
So 2404kg plus 180kg for essential from Jim’s list, 14kg for an extra gas bottle (1st bottle is included) 50 kg of water in tank, fuel was included as was 1 person at 75 kg, add another passenger at 80 kg and 2 more at 40kg each, 1 dog at 10kg with all bedding etc, awning,clothes,food for 3 days etc at 100kg.
I make that 2918kg, so still leaves 282kgs spare to 3200kg!
And my MIRO figure also includes the spare wheel included and a tool kit plus oil and water. We don’t take a TV or bikes, so think we will be ok at 3200kg max.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

This is complete make believe Im afraid
The 796kg payload is nonsense, at 3200kg gross it assumes an empty weight of 2400kg"............no chance

Go and weigh it EMPTY , without you,fuel or water and start from there, subtract that from your 3200 and thats your payload

 

[Riverbankannie]

This is complete make believe Im afraid
The 796kg payload is nonsense, at 3200kg gross it assumes an empty weight of 2400kg"............no chance

Go and weigh it EMPTY , without you,fuel or water and start from there, subtract that from your 3200 and thats your payload

I’m afraid I agree with Cheshirecat57 , after all my car Kerb weight is 2,150 kg (does that mean empty ?) and gross weight is 2700 kg.

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[gus-lopez]

Kerb weight is 2,150 kg (does that mean empty ?

Yes.

 

[Emmit]

Yes.

Except that doesn't it include, the driver at the mythical 75Kgs and a tank of fuel.

 

[stevewagner]

Thanks Allanm, will try and work to 3200kg for now, which seems perfectly plausible if the payload at 796kg is accurate.
I calculate it thus: MAM at 3200kg less 796kg payload = 2404kg= MIRO.
So 2404kg plus 180kg for essential from Jim’s list, 14kg for an extra gas bottle (1st bottle is included) 50 kg of water in tank, fuel was included as was 1 person at 75 kg, add another passenger at 80 kg and 2 more at 40kg each, 1 dog at 10kg with all bedding etc, awning,clothes,food for 3 days etc at 100kg.
I make that 2918kg, so still leaves 282kgs spare to 3200kg!
And my MIRO figure also includes the spare wheel included and a tool kit plus oil and water. We don’t take a TV or bikes, so think we will be ok at 3200kg max.

You may be under weight in total but may be over weight on one of the axles

 

[Riverbankannie]

Except that doesn't it include, the driver at the mythical 75Kgs and a tank of fuel.

Apparently it includes fuel but not driver. However I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a discussion about car weight meanings, it was just to illustrate that my car is as heavy as the quoted MIRO of that Motorhome and so can Captain Yoghurtpot really trust it ?

Quote
Also known as kerb weight, it refers to the actual weight of a vehicle including all the factory-installed equipment, facilities, and 90% full fuel tank. ... This is the actual weight of a vehicle assigned by its manufacturer. Gross mass indicates the car's weight with passengers and cargo.

 

[pappajohn]

Don't know how many have told you but just go get it weighed and stop messing about.
It'll cost less than a tenner no matter where you take it.

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[tonyidle]

Don't know how many have told you but just go get it weighed and stop messing about.
It'll cost less than a tenner no matter where you take it.

As I tried to suggest earlier the only weights that matter are laden weights: total and axles. I don't understand why ULW (even if it can be determined) is in any way relevant.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

As I tried to suggest earlier the only weights that matter are laden weights: total and axles. I don't understand why ULW (even if it can be determined) is in any way relevant.

you are correct, in law the only weights that matter are laden weights?
but weighing it empty tells you how much gap ( payload) you really have for you to use as you see fit.......as opposed to working from a piece of paper ( fiction)

and its dead easy to do

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

This is complete make believe Im afraid
The 796kg payload is nonsense, at 3200kg gross it assumes an empty weight of 2400kg"............no chance

Go and weigh it EMPTY , without you,fuel or water and start from there, subtract that from your 3200 and thats your payload

This is complete make believe Im afraid
The 796kg payload is nonsense, at 3200kg gross it assumes an empty weight of 2400kg"............no chance

Go and weigh it EMPTY , without you,fuel or water and start from there, subtract that from your 3200 and thats your payload

Van weight after weighbridge today in empty mode but with spare wheel, fire extinguisher and 1/4 tank fuel plus wheel brace and Jack, cab ladder and external ladder and fitted fiamma bike rack plus 2x 13 kg propane cylinders came in at a total of..........
2465kg.
Subtract from 3200kg plated max weight laden and I believe I have a payload of.........735kg!!!!
Then took van for weighing again, but this time with 90% of essentials onboard that we would always travel with and myself and this time the weight was...........2720kg!
If I then go to add the other variable stuff which can fluctuate dependant of how many travelling, but calculate to the maximum number of passengers permissable it adds...
30 kg water
10 kg additional bedding
19 Kg awning type gazebo and groundsheets
4 kg additional coolbox
5 kg Push chair
5 kg car seat
5 kg booster car seat
100 kg for additional clothes and food
225 kg MAX for 3 additional adults
30 kg MAX for combined 1 child and 1 infant.
This is the MAXIMUM we would ever be and comes in at a total of.......
3153kg.
Giving me a grand total of 47kg spare when in maximum load mode.
And all weights of equipment have been accurately weighed then rounded up.
Thanks for the advice, And I am 1 happy Camper???.

 

[Riverbankannie]

Van weight after weighbridge today in empty mode but with spare wheel, fire extinguisher and 1/4 tank fuel plus wheel brace and Jack, cab ladder and external ladder and fitted fiamma bike rack plus 2x 13 kg propane cylinders came in at a total of..........
2465kg.
Subtract from 3200kg plated max weight laden and I believe I have a payload of.........735kg!!!!
Then took van for weighing again, but this time with 90% of essentials onboard that we would always travel with and myself and this time the weight was...........2720kg!
If I then go to add the other variable stuff which can fluctuate dependant of how many travelling, but calculate to the maximum number of passengers permissable it adds...
30 kg water
10 kg additional bedding
19 Kg awning type gazebo and groundsheets
4 kg additional coolbox
5 kg Push chair
5 kg car seat
5 kg booster car seat
100 kg for additional clothes and food
225 kg MAX for 3 additional adults
30 kg MAX for combined 1 child and 1 infant.
This is the MAXIMUM we would ever be and comes in at a total of.......
3153kg.
Giving me a grand total of 47kg spare when in maximum load mode.
And all weights of equipment have been accurately weighed then rounded up.
Thanks for the advice, And I am 1 happy Camper???.

Pleased for you, well done. It’s amazing it could be so light.

 

[Emmit]

I love it when a story finishes with "And they all lived happy every after."

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[pappajohn]

Individual axle weights?
Is the rear axle within limits (1750kg or less) ?
It just as important as your total weight.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

I love it when a story finishes with "And they all lived happy every after."

Went to the fountain and took a big gulp.
It worked!
And best bit is.........
We usually only travel as 2 adults and small dog so we are WAY under, safe in the knowledge that if the whole tribe wants to go, we can do it, and legally.
And I don’t need to necessarily update the vin plate.
Unless of course Mrs. Yoghurtpot has had too many Mince pies over the Festive celebrations!
I , of course, cautious of this conundrum, abstained totally , like a good Funster.????

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Individual axle weights?
Is the rear axle within limits (1750kg or less) ?
It just as important as your total weight.

Yep, rear axle weight in 90% mode but without me or any other passengers at 1380 kegs, so 370kg difference on Rear.
Front was , without me, at 1240kg, so 450kg difference..

 

[Otter Spotter]

Does anyone know where there is a weighbridge near Todmorden ? Tried searching on google but nothing comes up for them except near Leeds !

 

[Badknee]

Does anyone know where there is a weighbridge near Todmorden ? Tried searching on google but nothing comes up for them except near Leeds !

Otter Spotter Check out scrap yards, quarries, places like that.

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[pappajohn]

Yep, rear axle weight in 90% mode but without me or any other passengers at 1380 kegs, so 370kg difference on Rear.
Front was , without me, at 1240kg, so 450kg difference..

Unfortunate it doesn't work like that. If you load the rear to its max 1750kg your front can only be 1450kg, not 1690kg.
1450kg + 1750kg =3200kg
Same applies the other way round.
You do appear to be within limits of axle weights though.