Motorhome evolution in a diesel-banned future

campa cola said:
If the Germans introduced sensible rosd speed limits like the rest of Europe they would probably cut their fuel consumption by half overnight.
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I have often thought the same, but travelling faster and more efficiently doesn't necessarily make it worse, engines burn cleaner and run better at higher revs, than they do at stop start speeds of UK roads, i can get MPG out of rental cars at silly speeds, because im pulling 2500 RPM in top doing 100mph , not sat in a snake at 65mph, having to be constantly on and off the throttle.

The new Euro6 lean burn engines will drop cylinders when cruising too, which will also help a bit.
 
PhilG said:
I have often thought the same, but travelling faster and more efficiently doesn't necessarily make it worse, engines burn cleaner and run better at higher revs, than they do at stop start speeds of UK roads, i can get MPG out of rental cars at silly speeds, because im pulling 2500 RPM in top doing 100mph , not sat in a snake at 65mph, having to be constantly on and off the throttle.

The new Euro6 lean burn engines will drop cylinders when cruising too, which will also help a bit.
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My experience of (unexpected) economy on German motorways is similar. A petrol engined car achieved 32 mpg at 90-110 mph compared with an average 28 mpg on UK motorway and A-road business journeys.

After reading that article linked earlier, I can imagine a hybrid having much worse fuel consumption when you want to go faster. The Chancellor's "green" rules on taxing company cars skewed the fleet market. He created tax incentives for businesses to lease hybrid cars that are not really suitable. Same goes for making them exempt from congestion charges in some cities. Company car drivers are unlikely to be tree-hugging hypermilers.
 
SpeedyDux said:
My experience of (unexpected) economy on German motorways is similar. A petrol engined car achieved 32 mpg at 90-110 mph compared with an average 28 mpg on UK motorway and A-road business journeys.

After reading that article linked earlier, I can imagine a hybrid having much worse fuel consumption when you want to go faster. The Chancellor's "green" rules on taxing company cars skewed the fleet market. He created tax incentives for businesses to lease hybrid cars that are not really suitable. Same goes for making them exempt from congestion charges in some cities. Company car drivers are unlikely to be tree-hugging hypermilers.
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I am glad I am not alone, we have rented many different types of cars in Germany , and as rental car rules apply , you have to have them flat out at some point , most of them seem to be limited to 185kmh, certainly the smaller stuff , I had a Nissan Juke once and we had it maxed out on cruise control for best part of an hour , with a six speed box it was only pulling 3000 RPM , with a redline at 5000, and it still returned over 45mpg over a 4 day rental, 2 of which it never moved for .
 
Steve N Tracy said:
Could this engine technology be the way forward for future motorhomes http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sae/17AUTP10/index.php#/26
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I saw that earlier this month - it certainly sounds impressive. IMO it's more likely to find its way into a hybrid vehicle than appear as a stand-alone power unit. Until the industry is in a position to go totally electric there is still a need for improved ICE efficiency so efforts in that direction are welcome. Given that the power needs of a vehicle at cruising speed are a fraction of those needed to accelerate or to climb hills there's a case for using an ICE with enough power for cruise (and battery charging) with electric providing a boost when needed. At an educated guess 40hp is likely to be enough for cruise even in a large mh. The rest, using an electric motor of up to perhaps 100hp, could be taken from batteries. It might also be possible to use the electric motor on its own in urban environments. I'm sure we'll see many solutions along similar lines before we get to full electric.

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But frustratingly, what all seem to forget/ignore is that the battery technology has yet to catch up!
 
Steve N Tracy said:
Could this engine technology be the way forward for future motorhomes http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sae/17AUTP10/index.php#/26
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Sorry but that site uses flash and won't let me view it...

PeteH said:
But frustratingly, what all seem to forget/ignore is that the battery technology has yet to catch up!
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Correct. A HUGE!!!!! amount of money is being thrown at battery research now which wasn't previously. There is now huge money in battery technology.
Literally every week I see a number of articles about battery tech.. This one really caught my interest as it looks feasible and practical as well as cheap.

https://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2...thium-battery-that-uses-an-asphalt-electrode/

It give 950Wh/Kg compared to the current average of 250Wh/Kg... The tech could be on the market within 5 years. The other advantage is it uses a really cheap raw material, doesn't use exotic or toxic materials and appears at first glance to have a simple manufacturing process. This is a first from memory. All other "new" tech uses very clever manufacturing process OR an exotic, expensive or toxic substance.

This one will do me until they crack aluminium air batteries :)

If this comes off we will have 4 times the range for the same weight... How good is that (y)
 
PeteH said:
But frustratingly, what all seem to forget/ignore is that the battery technology has yet to catch up!
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Things keep moving forward (y)
Just seen this today.

Toshiba Develops Next-Generation Lithium-ion Battery with New Anode Material
New battery realizes driving range of electric vehicles boosted to 320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery.

TOKYO—Toshiba Corporation (TOKYO: 6502), an industry leader in lithium-ion battery technology, today announced the development of its next-generation SCiBTM, which uses a new material to double the capacity of the battery anode. The new battery offers high- energy density and the ultra-rapid recharging required for automotive applications, and will give a compact electric vehicle (EV) with a drive range of 320km* after only six minutes of ultra-rapid recharging—three times the distance possible with current lithium-ion batteries.
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http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm
 
Gromett said:
Things keep moving forward (y)
Just seen this today.



http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm
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Never heard of "titanium niobium oxide". BUT it sounds:- a) Expensive, b) like something that needs to be mined, c) Is going to create more pollution in the production phase.

Until the storage medium is 1) simple, 2) cheap, 3) non polluting to manufacture, then the whole "electric" vehicle thing is (expensive in the round) "pie in the sky".
 
Hi Pete

Not sure I agree. Battery storage seems to be becoming a reality so this solves the issues of solar and wind producing electricity at the wrong times. Of course there is inherent pollution in mining etc but that pollution is kept off our streets where the damage is being done.

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PeteH said:
Never heard of "titanium niobium oxide". BUT it sounds:- a) Expensive, b) like something that needs to be mined, c) Is going to create more pollution in the production phase.

Until the storage medium is 1) simple, 2) cheap, 3) non polluting to manufacture, then the whole "electric" vehicle thing is (expensive in the round) "pie in the sky".
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When you think that every Litre of Petrol contains 2.3035KG of CO2 and Diesel 2.6391Kg of CO2. A single Titanium niobium oxide battery will get at least 100,000 miles with zero emissions.
At say 28mpg using 4.5 Litres to the gallon, that equates to 3571 gallons or 16069 Litres which is 36,958 Kg of CO2 that isn't pumped into the atmosphere. Please note that figure is rough and ready.. Also it excludes the CO2 released from the drilling, refining and transportation. It also doesn't include the CO2 used to build the rigs, the processing plant, not the electric used in the processes to convert crude to petrol. Add to this we also remove particulate and other chemicals coming from the exhaust pipes of cars... I am sorry but while I agree with you that there is pollution from mining, taking it in the round I am convinced by the data I have seen over the last 2 years that electric car wins out on the pollution front. The only question remaining was producing enough electric and getting enough range out of the batteries. With this speed of charge the range issue is no longer a question..

As we get more and more renewable electric online, we will be taking CO2 intensive power out of the grid.

It is also worth noting that controlling pollution at a mine/processing plant is infinitely cheaper and easier than doing it for millions upon millions of cars.
 
@Gromett , I'm a little confused. If a litre of petrol weighs 737.22 grams un-burnt how do we arrive at 2.3035KG of CO2 over 3 times it's original weight in it's burnt state, is it the addition of the oxygen molecule in the burn process ?
 
PeteH said:
Until the storage medium is 1) simple, 2) cheap, 3) non polluting to manufacture, then the whole "electric" vehicle thing is (expensive in the round) "pie in the sky".
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Up to the end of August this year there were over 125,000 plug in electric vehicles registered in the UK and sales as a percentage of new registrations are growing month on month.

There are 59 separate plug in models available.

Pie in the sky? Are you sure about that?

The market may be relatively small at present - around 2 - 3% of new car sales - but like it or not it's well established and steadily growing along with the charging infrastructure. (y)
 
CCC said:
@Gromett , I'm a little confused. If a litre of petrol weighs 737.22 grams un-burnt how do we arrive at 2.3035KG of CO2 over 3 times it's original weight in it's burnt state, is it the addition of the oxygen molecule in the burn process ?
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Each carbon atom combines with 2 oxygen atoms. So it is immediately 3 times the size in just the number of atoms.
Then you have to consider the atomic mass.. Carbon has an atomic mass of approximately 12 and Oxygen has an atomic mass of approximately 16.

Petrol is a complex mix of hydrocarbons, so mainly Hydrogen and Carbon. Hydrogen has an atomic mass of only 1.
There are many different hydrocarbon molecules. For example Benzine is H6C6 so it has 6 hydrogen weighing 6, and 6 carbon weighing 12 x 6 = 72 total weight = 78

I don't know all the constituent parts of petrol and can't do the maths. But if say a single Benzine atom is burnt, it will release 6 CO2 which is (6 x 12) + ( 12 x 16) = 264 it will also release 6 x H2O.

This would give a ratio of 3.3 but this only applies if it was 100% benzene which it isn't. Petrol contains many different types of molecules with carbon being between 5 and 40 atoms in the molecule and varying ratios of hydrogen. For instance Octane is C8H18 which will give a lower ratio.

I am not certain about the above maths/chemistry. Chemistry is not my strongest subject as I only did enough for my physics/electronics courses... I am sure a chemist will be along shortly to correct any mistakes. But in the meantime it gives you some idea of how/why the ratio is so "high".

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SomeoneElse said:
Charging a 32kWh battery in 6 minutes (one tenth of an hour) needs a 320 kW charger.
The normal domestic supply is less than 25kW. Some serious infrastructure changes will be needed.
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Here we go again :p

These ultra fast chargers are for use on the road. 90% of people will charge up overnight at home using a more standard charger. The ultra fast chargers will only be used for people exceeding the range of the vehicle on a single charge.
 
Gromett said:
Here we go again :p

These ultra fast chargers are for use on the road. 90% of people will charge up overnight at home using a more standard charger. The ultra fast chargers will only be used for people exceeding the range of the vehicle on a single charge.
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But the three or four filling stations that I have been involved with all had a domestic sized supply. some places will have to change.
On my trip to France last month I noticed that a lot of towns, even quite small ones, were installing chrging points. I don't see the same happening in Britian. I don't know wether the French charging point are anywhere near being "ultra fast" but I noticed that they all offered "domestic" options on their markings. They may be occupied a good while with one car.
 
SomeoneElse said:
But the three or four filling stations that I have been involved with all had a domestic sized supply. some places will have to change.
On my trip to France last month I noticed that a lot of towns, even quite small ones, were installing chrging points. I don't see the same happening in Britian. I don't know wether the French charging point are anywhere near being "ultra fast" but I noticed that they all offered "domestic" options on their markings. They may be occupied a good while with one car.
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There are loads of smaller charge points being set up, I have even seen them in tiny villages.

But yes, High power chargers would require upgrades to power supplies but this is not out of the question. Remember by 2040 new ICE based cars will be banned in the UK. Petrol stations have an incentive to get these installed to take over from the loss of fuel sales. Supermarkets will install chargers that can give you an X% boost in the half hour you are shopping. Those that don't install chargers will lose business. Market forces will ensure that chargers are installed as needed.

However within a decade we will have cars capable of 300 mile range on a single charge. This is more than a weeks driving for 80% of the population. Ultra fast chargers will only be required by a few doing long distance trips.
 
SomeoneElse said:
, even quite small ones, were installing chrging points. I don't see the same happening in Britian.
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It is happening in lots of places, mostly bigger towns and cities and motorway service areas at the moment but the network is spreading.

The points in the U.K. are mostly privately operated and subscription based. There are several companies offering the service.
 
Gromett said:
There are loads of smaller charge points being set up, I have even seen them in tiny villages.

But yes, High power chargers would require upgrades to power supplies but this is not out of the question. Remember by 2040 new ICE based cars will be banned in the UK. Petrol stations have an incentive to get these installed to take over from the loss of fuel sales. Supermarkets will install chargers that can give you an X% boost in the half hour you are shopping. Those that don't install chargers will lose business. Market forces will ensure that chargers are installed as needed.

However within a decade we will have cars capable of 300 mile range on a single charge. This is more than a weeks driving for 80% of the population. Ultra fast chargers will only be required by a few doing long distance trips.
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I think most UK petrol stations will struggle with accommodating a fast electric supply at a safe distance from the pumps. I think the "no sparks,lights, phones, engine running "will ensure that they have to be well away from any flammable pump area. In most towns that will preclude being able to charge in a fuel station.
Most Tesla superchargers in the UK are in the parking areas & nowhere near the fuel pumps. The standard charge ones I have seen on the M4 service areas are also not in the fuel pump areas , but outside the eating areas .
Here the only Tesla one I've seen is around 80m from the fuel pumps & right on the very edge of the service station.

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gus-lopez said:
I think most UK petrol stations will struggle with accommodating a fast electric supply at a safe distance from the pumps. I think the "no sparks,lights, phones, engine running "will ensure that they have to be well away from any flammable pump area. In most towns that will preclude being able to charge in a fuel station.
Most Tesla superchargers in the UK are in the parking areas & nowhere near the fuel pumps. The standard charge ones I have seen on the M4 service areas are also not in the fuel pump areas , but outside the eating areas .
Here the only Tesla one I've seen is around 80m from the fuel pumps & right on the very edge of the service station.
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I am pretty certain that the connector does not spark. There is a trigger you have to pull to release it and this will switch off the charger so no voltage at the end to arc.

However, I don't expect them to put the chargers next to the pumps anyway. Most will be in the parking bays.

Seriously, these are all minor details that can be resolved in the next 23 years.
 
The Elephant in the room here is how all the taxes currently(see what i did there) raised by fuel excise duty will be replaced, because it is a massive revenue stream, that you cant just turn off.

We have already seen Spain starting to crack down on solar panels, because they cant let everyone have free electric from the sky, and as people move to electric because its cheaper( as they did with diesel) they will suddenly get to a position where the powers that be will need their slice of the cake, and the maths that justify it all suddenly dont add up.

Wont affect me, i'll be skating in hell before i give up my ICE.
 
Gromett said:
I am pretty certain that the connector does not spark. There is a trigger you have to pull to release it and this will switch off the charger so no voltage at the end to arc.

However, I don't expect them to put the chargers next to the pumps anyway. Most will be in the parking bays.

Seriously, these are all minor details that can be resolved in the next 23 years.
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Until i can use a mobile phone on a petrol forecourt , plugging a car in on one cant happen .
 
NickNic said:
Up to the end of August this year there were over 125,000 plug in electric vehicles registered in the UK and sales as a percentage of new registrations are growing month on month.

There are 59 separate plug in models available.

Pie in the sky? Are you sure about that?

The market may be relatively small at present - around 2 - 3% of new car sales - but like it or not it's well established and steadily growing along with the charging infrastructure. (y)
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May I refer my Learned friend to the 3 words "in the round"?. The overall costs, from "cradle to grave" are still not in any way near to the alleged "goal" of Carbon Neutral. Most of this "Green Energy" business is just that, Business, promoted by Business "persons" and fronted at just as great expense by P_R people. "Only the names have been changed". (dragnet!!.);)

I, like many others, have "converted" to LED`s both in the motorhome, (battery saving) and in the home, Cost saving. BUT I am also not unaware that the cost of production of these, is almost certainly not "carbon neutral". by the same token, having done the Math on my own personal behalf have elected NOT to put an acre of expensive solar panel's on my roof. But the cash saved did help me get a newer (Diesel) Motorhome for my enjoyment!(y)
 
People who drive Hybrid cars and own log burners...

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We are all getting very excited or not about the future beyond 2040 when we will no longer be able to buy vehicles with Internal Combustion Engines, well I believe the proposal is to ban vehicles that are 100% ICE so this will not include Hybrids and plug in Hybrids, so the good news is that we will still be able to buy snorting fire breathing gas guzzling V8's as long as they have an additional hybrid drive to up the power even further.

Martin
 
autorouter said:
http://www.smart2zero.com/news/air-breathing-battery-promises-lower-cost-grid-energy-storage

Sulphur and salt flow battery. Takes in and gives out oxygen. About the same energy density as Li batteries.

.
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I can see the advantage for FIXED installations, however I assume that like all other batteries it only stores DC voltage. Which makes the conversion to DC (for storing) and back to AC for general use needing converters none of which are particularly efficient.
 
Dont worry the "Flux Capacitor " will solve it
 

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