Me again. Marquis now refusing to refund the deposit.

[SirPooley]

14th August: Deposit paid.

2nd October (49 days after deposit paid): I tell them I've had enough of waiting and want to cancel the 'sale'.

I tell them that I want a refund of my deposit, citing Section 28.3b of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

28 Delivery of goods
(1) This section applies to any sales contract.
(2) Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer.
(3) Unless there is an agreed time or period, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods—
(a) without undue delay, and
(b) in any event, not more than 30 days after the day on which the contract is entered into.

They have replied, refusing to issue the refund, stating:

1. For failing to take delivery of the Motorhome (non-acceptance), as per our terms and conditions M******* B******* will accept the £3,000 deposit in full and final settlement of cancellation and you will not be liable to complete the transaction.

The very reason I cancelled the sale was because several weeks had gone by and they still could not / would not provide a date from when I could actually collect the vehicle I had paid for in full. I have not failed to take delivery. They have failed to deliver.

Surely it cannot be right that a company can take your deposit and then fail to provide the goods the deposit was paid on, or to give any indication of when that might actually be. Essentially they expect me to wait indefinitely.

At no point when I paid the deposit or then paid the remainder did anyone say anything at all about a possible delay in paperwork.

I am prepared to make a court claim for the return of this deposit. Does Section 28.3b of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply or is it trumped by their terms and conditions?

 

[Carpmart]

The irony!!! Withholding your deposit as you will not accept delivery, which is all you bloody wanted all along!

Formally write to them (audit trail if needed), give them the relevant laws that cover this and give them seven days to refund. Send by every channel you can, paper and electronic and print a cc copy of each and keep in a file for later proof if needed.

If they don’t pay, initiate the small claims process. Google the cost of letters (use this for each letter you send) and add that to the claim as well as any other reasonable costs…

You will win, but you could do without the hassle. You need to prove your resolve to follow every and all options open to you to recover your money and be more of a problem to them than the £3k value represents, at which point they will pay.

 

[Marauder]

RAC have free legal department ( motoring experts )

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Lots of well meaning comment and advice being given. But I'm not sure how many giving this are legally qualified. Ultimately, seek proper qualified advice. You may have this through an add on with an insurance (house, motor, etc) policy, otherwise even citizens advice may help.

You need to look seriously at the complete wording of the contract, and show, legally, that that was breached. Consumer law may over-ride some terms but this needs careful interpretation. Especially at Small Claims Court the judge, who is perhaps quite junior (not a magistrate different process), may be used to litigants in person (not solicitor represented), but they can't offer advice and must work with the arguments presented to them, without any bias.

Small Claims Court, indeed any litigation is not guaranteed, and should be a last resort. Only the lawyers win and it's rare to see parties fully happy with the result even if you think it is simple. Be prepared that if you don't get the right result, you can have to pay out, either simply by loss of your own costs and fees, but perhaps in a worse case scenario contributing to the other sides costs.

Small claims offers very limited scope for costs incurred, so time of the paperwork preparation even time in attending the court is usually not recovered at real cost, even for the winner. You won't have scope for damages, and other incidental costs, and even the ability to get interest is limited. Bottom line small claims is supposed to be for simple processes so the add on stuff that can complicate a claim is kept to a minimum.

It can take months, if not years to come to conclusion, especially as the courts are overworked and slow, and the processes involved are very pedantic, and can take a number of back and forth when parties seem to be able to wriggle in terms of submitting documents and disputing they were received, disclosure, non attendance requiring adjournment as they claim to be unaware of notices of hearings. The aim of defendants, and particularly their representatives, can be to frustrate. It goes on. You may think you have taken a step forward with a court direction only to see that nullified at another hearing. Real world experience.

Make sure, before any claim is made into court that all prerequisites have been covered. Notices Before Action clearly describe the claim and alleged default, and why, along with details of all costs you expect to recover, including interest, court fees, and litigation costs (recovering legal fees may be restricted especially in small claims). Any attempts to negotiate should be clearly labelled "without prejudice" i.e. offers of what you will settle for, and keep separated from correspondence that shows your intent to pursue a the action in which you can refer that there has been offers, but no details of the negotiation, as the formal stuff becomes part of your document trail. Be prepared to show you have looked at Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) measures which may be as simple as mediation.

Are Marquis part of any ombudsman or similar ADR organisation. Have you exhausted their formal Complaints Procedures?

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I would also add your out of pocket expenses to your claim, the insurance cover you paid for whilst in thier yard ,your travel costs to their sales office etc etc. And notify them that you will be claiming for theses costs as well as the return of your deposit.

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[CazPaul]

All the excuses and all the apologies they gave you and yet they still want to have 3 grand out of it, for something entirely their fault.

 

[Bodoge]

14th August: Deposit paid.

2nd October (49 days after deposit paid): I tell them I've had enough of waiting and want to cancel the 'sale'.

I tell them that I want a refund of my deposit, citing Section 28.3b of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

28 Delivery of goods
(1) This section applies to any sales contract.
(2) Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer.
(3) Unless there is an agreed time or period, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods—
(a) without undue delay, and
(b) in any event, not more than 30 days after the day on which the contract is entered into.

They have replied, refusing to issue the refund, stating:

1. For failing to take delivery of the Motorhome (non-acceptance), as per our terms and conditions M******* B******* will accept the £3,000 deposit in full and final settlement of cancellation and you will not be liable to complete the transaction.

The very reason I cancelled the sale was because several weeks had gone by and they still could not / would not provide a date from when I could actually collect the vehicle I had paid for in full. I have not failed to take delivery. They have failed to deliver.

Surely it cannot be right that a company can take your deposit and then fail to provide the goods the deposit was paid on, or to give any indication of when that might actually be. Essentially they expect me to wait indefinitely.

At no point when I paid the deposit or then paid the remainder did anyone say anything at all about a possible delay in paperwork.

I am prepared to make a court claim for the return of this deposit. Does Section 28.3b of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply or is it trumped by their terms and conditions?

The consumers act is law, nothing can override it. Their T&C isn't law, they may think it is but they have not acted within the law, contravening the act. I dont know where you reside, but if you contact JVS on 3 counties radio, he will explain the act and your rights in layman terms. Hope this helps.

 

[Realist]

When you signed any paperwork you would have had a copy.

Can you scan and post that up terms and conditions wise (removed your details) so the part time internet legal detectives here can have a look.

Or seek a local solicitor for advice.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Lots of well meaning comment and advice being given. But I'm not sure how many giving this are legally qualified. Ultimately, seek proper qualified advice. You may have this through an add on with an insurance (house, motor, etc) policy, otherwise even citizens advice may help.

You need to look seriously at the complete wording of the contract, and show, legally, that that was breached. Consumer law may over-ride some terms but this needs careful interpretation. Especially at Small Claims Court the judge, who is perhaps quite junior (not a magistrate different process), may be used to litigants in person (not solicitor represented), but they can't offer advice and must work with the arguments presented to them, without any bias.

Small Claims Court, indeed any litigation is not guaranteed, and should be a last resort. Only the lawyers win and it's rare to see parties fully happy with the result even if you think it is simple. Be prepared that if you don't get the right result, you can have to pay out, either simply by loss of your own costs and fees, but perhaps in a worse case scenario contributing to the other sides costs.

Small claims offers very limited scope for costs incurred, so time of the paperwork preparation even time in attending the court is usually not recovered at real cost, even for the winner. You won't have scope for damages, and other incidental costs, and even the ability to get interest is limited. Bottom line small claims is supposed to be for simple processes so the add on stuff that can complicate a claim is kept to a minimum.

It can take months, if not years to come to conclusion, especially as the courts are overworked and slow, and the processes involved are very pedantic, and can take a number of back and forth when parties seem to be able to wriggle in terms of submitting documents and disputing they were received, disclosure, non attendance requiring adjournment as they claim to be unaware of notices of hearings. The aim of defendants, and particularly their representatives, can be to frustrate. It goes on. You may think you have taken a step forward with a court direction only to see that nullified at another hearing. Real world experience.

Make sure, before any claim is made into court that all prerequisites have been covered. Notices Before Action clearly describe the claim and alleged default, and why, along with details of all costs you expect to recover, including interest, court fees, and litigation costs (recovering legal fees may be restricted especially in small claims). Any attempts to negotiate should be clearly labelled "without prejudice" i.e. offers of what you will settle for, and keep separated from correspondence that shows your intent to pursue a the action in which you can refer that there has been offers, but no details of the negotiation, as the formal stuff becomes part of your document trail. Be prepared to show you have looked at Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) measures which may be as simple as mediation.

Are Marquis part of any ombudsman or similar ADR organisation. Have you exhausted their formal Complaints Procedures?

Pretty good overview.

It is actually the Small Claims Track in the County Court.

It is aimed at litigants in person. In the majority of cases the successful party still pays its own costs of representation. You only get Court fees awarded. Therefore unless covered by legal costs insurance, solicitors' fees will come out of the OP's pocket regardless.

You can add out-of-pocket expenses to the £3k claim.

I think the OP has reached a tipping point and must decide either to litigate or abandon his deposit. The dealer is playing hardball hoping he will go away.

 

[Pausim]

The dealer is playing hardball hoping he will go away.

I expect most who have read about this will also go away. I hope Marquis will regret their unreasonable behaviour by losing all their customers.

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[nicholsong]

With regard to comments as to whether the law or terms of the contract prevail, in there Section 28 quoted in the OP subsections (2) and (3) only make provisions UNLESS there is agreement in the contract, in which case the contract terms prevail.

Without knowledge of the contract much of the advice on here is invalid.

 

[pappajohn]

I've posted this before more than once.
You can't contact trading standards yourself, you need to go through citizens advice.

 

[Northernraider]

Absolutely rediculas how they are behaving, myself and two other people I know have vans for well over 100k on order. All 3 of us have paid a & £500 refundable deposit, that's how proper dealers behave.

Yeah but then they cancelled the order.


I don't think any dealer is entirely trustworthy . They don't care about the customer only the profit. Like most businesses sadly

 

[gpat]

With regard to comments as to whether the law or terms of the contract prevail, in there Section 28 quoted in the OP subsections (2) and (3) only make provisions UNLESS there is agreement in the contract, in which case the contract terms prevail.

Without knowledge of the contract much of the advice on here is invalid.

I'm not sure if that's absolutely correct. I know what you are saying. A deposit is a part payment for the goods. If the goods have not be supplied within a reasonable time then the seller falls foul of the sale of goods act regardless of the contract. Even if the contract says differently.

I am amazed, but not really surprised that Marquis are taking this stance. The loss of reputation will cost them more than refunding the deposit.

I have fallen foul if there terrible service in the past and would never buy from them again. They don't seem to ever get any better.

 

[nicholsong]

I'm not sure if that's absolutely correct. I know what you are saying. A deposit is a part payment for the goods. If the goods have not be supplied within a reasonable time then the seller falls foul of the sale of goods act regardless of the contract. Even if the contract says differently.

I am amazed, but not really surprised that Marquis are taking this stance. The loss of reputation will cost them more than refunding the deposit.

I have fallen foul if there terrible service in the past and would never buy from them again. They don't seem to ever get any better.

I disagree with that, because S. 28 (2) and (3) only apply UNLESS the contract agreement specifies otherwise.

Therefore if the contract specifies delivery on a date beyond the 30 days then S.28 (3) does not come into effect.

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[Wanders from Glos]

As others said we have found the Small Claims Court simple and effective. We have only used it a few times but it seemed straightforward and relatively inexpensive. A couple of times just initiating proceedings has been enough.

 

[Gromett]

I disagree with that, because S. 28 (2) and (3) only apply UNLESS the contract agreement specifies otherwise.

Therefore if the contract specifies delivery on a date beyond the 30 days then S.28 (3) does not come into effect.

I think you are correct here. BUT. I suspect they don't define the delivery date as they don't want to be held to anything and B if it is much beyond 30 days without given reason it could be construed as an unfair term and struck out under part 2 of the comsumer act.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a807f4c40f0b62302693daf/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

 

[Lenny HB]

Yeah but then they cancelled the order.

Talking about current one that one was unique set of circumstances

 

[Teedubyaa]

Maybe funsters at the NEC should ask Marquis what their deposit terms are and query ‘a friend has had awful trouble getting their deposit refunded ….’

 

[pelican]

Try to spread your audience Rip Off Britain - Gloria and Co may love to get their teeth into this.

good idea

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[Gromett]

SirPooley I hope you have a copy of the contract signed? So that they can't change it after the fact (I have seen this happen).

 

[Puddleduck]

Generally speaking, salespeople will say that, non refundable deposit. But does that make it so? Surely if they cannot keep their side of the bargain, that statement is null and void? Further, what about the seller's reputation? If they are so powerful that they do not care, why would a potential purchaser go there?

If the bargain can't be kept (a number of different reasons why this may be so) then I think (from the far off days when I studied contract law as part of my degree so things may have changed) the contract is frustrated.

Farrer and Co say "Frustration applies where an unforeseen event makes performance of the contract impossible. If a contract is frustrated it effectively comes to an end and the parties are released from their obligations" but be aware that frustration only applies in a small number of cases and I am not a lawyer so can't say if it would apply here.

Lots of well meaning comment and advice being given. But I'm not sure how many giving this are legally qualified. Ultimately, seek proper qualified advice. You may have this through an add on with an insurance (house, motor, etc) policy, otherwise even citizens advice may
Small Claims Court, indeed any litigation is not guaranteed, and should be a last resort. Only the lawyers win and it's rare to see parties fully happy with the result even if you think it is simple. Be prepared that if you don't get the right result, you can have to pay out, either simply by loss of your own costs and fees, but perhaps in a worse case scenario contributing to the other sides costs.

I may be wrong (things could have changed since I took a case to small claims) but legal costs could not be awarded against the losing party. So in my case I would never have been liable for the cost of the other parties barrister. I was very happy with the outcomes in both the cases I took to court.

My husband took his then employer to court many years ago and he won - again we were very happy with the outcome.

 

[Gizmouk]

Solicitors letter straight to the MD. See how big his gonads are.

In future, only ever pay a deposit by Credit Card. Folk aren't so brave once they start a fight with a credit card issuer.

 

[treblid]

They look desperate for business. I have had two emails featuring Marquis on Out & About Live.

 

[mitzimad]

They look desperate for business. I have had two emails featuring Marquis on Out & About Live.

View attachment 821018

copy and paste this threaD AND E MAIL IT BACK TO THEM

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[Pausim]

They look desperate for business. I have had two emails featuring Marquis on Out & About Live.

View attachment 821018

I can think of all sorts words to add to their strap line, many of them beginning with D and going before Dealer.

 

[Grey Fox]

If it was me I would :
Email the CEO of Auto Sleepers Ltd, he is the person ultimately in charge of Marquis, Pointing out that they behaved dishonesty requesting full payment when the company knew that they would be unable to supply the vehicle within 3 days. In my book this is in effect fraudulent trading, this was the catalyst that started the sorry saga and ultimately gave you no choice other then to cancel the contract.
I would Inform them that I was passing onto a solicitor and trading standards.

 

[FrankNicklin]

Just read their legal info link. What a joke.

Legal Information

Contact their head office in Broadway, to the dealership, see what they have to say.

 

[Lenny HB]

In future, only ever pay a deposit by Credit Card. Folk aren't so brave once they start a fight with a credit card issuer.

Only useful if the total purchase price is under 30k, can't buy a Motorhome for that these days.

 

[Grey Fox]

If you have legal expenses insurance as an ad on with your home insurance it normally covers :

• • Problems with the provision of goods and services

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[Tonks]

Wondering if SirPooley is any further forward with this?
I hope so!