Mains and Solar panels not charging

[Saltings]

Hi
In the end we opted for a new battery and that seems to have solved most of the problems. However we have used EHU's a lot to power the fridge etc during the last few weeks so I can't say if we have solved the solar cell charging problem yet. I will see when back in the UK. We were lucky as our insurance includes home start and we needed that to get someone out to help to remove the drivers seat. Hab. batt. is under that seat.
One tip I picked up was to ensure that the wiring to the solar charge controller is correct. On ours
as shown below - 1st 2 terminals from the solar cells 9reads about 20v in daylight), 2nd 2 MUST be for the Hab. batt. (70% of charge) and final 2 to motor battery. Last two to read about 12.7v.
2nd tip was to add + & - wires from the new battery terminals to an easily accessible point under front seat. That way we can always run a trickle charger in an emergency direct to the hab. batt. Thist was previously impossible to do.
Hope that helps a little.
Cheers
Saltings

 

[pappajohn]

2nd tip was to add + & - wires from the new battery terminals to an easily accessible point under front seat

How did you terminate the open ends ?

 

[Saltings]

I had previously bought a CETEK 5 charger and with that you get two extra wires that do not have clamps on but just round terminals. At the other end CETEK had their universal plug. So it was just a question of bolting the + & - wires to the terminals and tucking the rest of the wire under the seat, prior to putting the seat back. This seat has a front trim that folds down thus giving access to the CETEK wires.*
Must say I swear by the charger - bit expensive at £62 but in my view bearing in mind the cost of everything else worth every penny!
*Think I could write an instruction manual on removing Chasson seats by now! (Ours is based on a Ducato cab).
Having been very badly stung by a local "so called expert agent" the other tip I have picked up is do the Habitation Check yourself. These guys damaged the inside of the motorhome and charged us an arm and a leg. So am in the middle of trying to recoup some of this via Mastercard. When it is all over I will paste the letter that outlines all their failings on to the forum so others do not get caught out.

This is only our 3rd season so we are on the steep learning curve!
Cheers
Saltings

 

[Bengaz]

Hi Saltings, couple of things I've found out re my probs similar to yours: -
The built in mains charger would not charge my hab battery which was at 1.8v, nor does the solar panel controller either.
I have had hab battery problems from day 1.
I managed to get the built in charger to charge by linking the van and hab battery together via the wiring at the solar panel controller and this worked and seemed to recover the hab battery temporarily.
Problem is with hab battery at 1.8v and the charger not working when we pulled up on site non of our electrics would work even via the 16A output of the charger.

MY charge controller is the same as yours except i have adjustable 1st battery changeover percentage.

Interesting you say the hab battery MUST be connected to battery 1 as I have my van battery to battery 1 with a changeover percentage set to 70%. Why was this a must?

 

[Saltings]

Re: the wiring on your solar controller. I got this information from two sources. Firstly from this forum and then to I spoke to the manufacturers here in the U.K.



TeL: 0800 7747755

They said that the two centre wires should go to your hab. batt. as this required a constant charge - after all you use this in a motorhome most of the time. The motor battery has its own charger (alternator) and is a different animal to your hab. batt. The motor batt. needs to give a big kick of power every so often whereas the hab. batt. is more of a continuous power source.

The problem I discovered with our Chasson 625 Flash was that when the voltage in the hab. batt. dropped below 10v (normally 12.7v) it would automatically cease charging it - from any source. This is a built in feature by Chasson. The only method is to put the charger directly onto the batt. terminals which were under the seat, and therefore impossible to reach. Or as in your case you have linked up the two batteries.

The first winter we had it there was no problem and the solar cells kept both batteries fully topped up. I have a feeling we may return to the same problem with the cells this autumn.

Our local motorhome engineer, in Toddington, was most helpful. He said that 9 times out of ten it is a faulty battery problem.

One additional problem with electrics we discovered this summer was that the fridge/freezer would not link up to the hab. batt. but would only operate when EHU was used/or gas. Does yours function OK off your hab. batt.?

Let me know how you get on.
Cheers
Saltings

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[Reallyretired]

I think most 'smart' chargers will not charge a battery at only 1.8v.
I have succeeded in the past by using a basic old fashioned charger, basically a transformer and metal rectifier, to get a bit of charge in first and then change to the smart charger.

I suspect the initial cause of the problem is the solar controller. I also suspect your voltmeter may be inaccurate if it gives a reading of 13.3v on a battery that has been off charge for a week.

 

[Saltings]

Once a battery has had an extended time at only 1.8v I think the lead plates have just about had it, even with a charger like the CETEK. It's then time for a new battery - but ensure it is always kept above 10.00v.

 

[autorouter]

I also suspect your voltmeter may be inaccurate if it gives a reading of 13.3v on a battery that has been off charge for a week.

No, 13.3 volts is a reasonable reading for an open-circuit battery off-charge for a week. My leisure batteries regularly take two or three weeks to drop below 13V. There is a tiny permanent drain, from the frost protection valve, but that's all. No alarm.

The consensus on this forum seems to be that 12.8 is the maximum anyone ever sees on a disconnected battery, but that's not my experience. Maybe everyone turns on their alarm or has other hidden drains on the leisure battery.

I checked my voltmeter against a calibrated bench voltmeter traceable to national standards in my lab at work, and it's as accurate as can be expected.

They said old battery had a dead cell (as it is a sealed battery I fail to know how they knew).

A 12V battery has 6 cells, about 2V each. If the battery charges up, but the voltage settles down to about 10.5V when disconnected, one of the cells is dead.

 

[Saltings]

No, 13.3 volts is a reasonable reading for an open-circuit battery off-charge for a week. My leisure batteries regularly take two or three weeks to drop below 13V. There is a tiny permanent drain, from the frost protection valve, but that's all. No alarm.

The consensus on this forum seems to be that 12.8 is the maximum anyone ever sees on a disconnected battery, but that's not my experience. Maybe everyone turns on their alarm or has other hidden drains on the leisure battery.

I checked my voltmeter against a calibrated bench voltmeter traceable to national standards in my lab at work, and it's as accurate as can be expected.

A 12V battery has 6 cells, about 2V each. If the battery charges up, but the voltage settles down to about 10.5V when disconnected, one of the cells is dead.

Hi

I think most 'smart' chargers will not charge a battery at only 1.8v.
I have succeeded in the past by using a basic old fashioned charger, basically a transformer and metal rectifier, to get a bit of charge in first and then change to the smart charger.

I suspect the initial cause of the problem is the solar controller. I also suspect your voltmeter may be inaccurate if it gives a reading of 13.3v on a battery that has been off charge for a week.

I take it that by the same token if you have a battery that is charged up to 13.3 v and it remains pretty steady for a week, it is safe to assume that the battery is in good condition?

What makes you think it is the Solar Controller?

Thanks
Saltings

 

[funflair]

I would guess that @autorouter has GEL batteries to show anything over 13 volts on a rested battery.

@Saltings your fridge is not meant to work off the tab batteries, some will depending how it is wired but if it doesn't but works OK on everything else including 12 volt when driving then I would assume thats the way it should be.

Martin

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[Reallyretired]

You were getting a reading of 1.8v at the controller and at the leisure battery, it is pretty safe to assume they are connected and so there is not a blown fuse in the circuit. Something has caused the battery to go flat and since you've replaced the battery and thats gone flat too, the most likely cause is the controller. Some controllers can be damaged if the batteries are disconnected with the panel still connected (if there's any light of course). For safety the panel should be covered or disconnected before disconnecting the battery.
If your EHU charger is a 'smart' charger it would probably not charge a battery that had gone too low. Mine stops charging if the battery voltage falls below about 11v (which I don't see as a benefit )

 

[Saltings]

@Saltings your fridge is not meant to work off the tab batteries, some will depending how it is wired but if it doesn't but works OK on everything else including 12 volt when driving then I would assume thats the way it should be.

Martin[/QUOTE]
Hi Martin

Fridge does not work off 12v when driving. Only works on EHU or alternatively gas (when stationary). I had a feeling that last summer it worked off the 12v hab. batt., but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[autorouter]

I would guess that @autorouter has GEL batteries to show anything over 13 volts on a rested battery.

Nope, they're standard sealed lead-acid type. Varta silver dynamic H3, calcium type. 2 x 100Ah.
I am the first to admit I often make mistakes, but not when measuring voltages.
I'm sure others are reporting their voltage readings accurately too. It's just that a battery sitting on a bench unconnected is not the same as a a battery connected up in a motorhome, with 'everything' switched off. That's just a guess, though. If anyone else has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

 

[autorouter]

Fridge does not work off 12v when driving. Only works on EHU or alternatively gas (when stationary). I had a feeling that last summer it worked off the 12v hab. batt., but maybe I'm wrong?

You probably already know this, but there are two 12V supplies to the fridge. There's a supply to the control board, that takes a very small current and controls the selection of the cooling power (240V, gas or 12V heater element). There's a second supply to the fridge 12V heater element, which takes a heavy current of about 18 amps.

The control board is usually on continuously, even when the habitation 12V is switched off. The heater element is usually controlled by a relay so it switches on when the engine is running.

I'd guess that red cable with the 20 amp fuse has something to do with it.

 

[Saltings]

Hi

No, I thought there was only one supply. So basically we should be able to set the fridge temperature with the power delivered to the control board. At present this doesn't light up when unless on EHU or gas.

Then the heavier, 18 amp charge is what carries out the cooling process. I checked the fuse box which has a 30 amp fuse marked fridge/freezer and that was fine.

Sounds as if one of the problems could be the relay, we have two between the battery charger and the habb. batt. and the smaller charge could be down to a fuse having gone somewhere. Will have to check Thetford handbook in case there is one in the fridge itself.

Pic. of fusebox below but all smaller fuses hidden under top flap.

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[peterc10]

Hi

No, I thought there was only one supply. So basically we should be able to set the fridge temperature with the power delivered to the control board. At present this doesn't light up when unless on EHU or gas.

Then the heavier, 18 amp charge is what carries out the cooling process. I checked the fuse box which has a 30 amp fuse marked fridge/freezer and that was fine.

Sounds as if one of the problems could be the relay, we have two between the battery charger and the habb. batt. and the smaller charge could be down to a fuse having gone somewhere. Will have to check Thetford handbook in case there is one in the fridge itself.

Pic. of fusebox below but all smaller fuses hidden under top flap.
View attachment 180950

That is a picture of your 240v mains unit. The 12v fuses will be somewhere else, depending upon what motorhome you have. In ours most of the 12v hab fuses are on the Electrobloc which also acts as the charger.

 

[Saltings]

Thanks for clarifying that.

The M/H is a Chasson 625 Flash. here is a picture of our charger. Never explored inside that. When our hab. batt. failed and began to burn out the fan in the batt. charger was going at full speed and was quite warm. Possibly something that has caused a fuse to blow?

 

[peterc10]

I really think that you need to take this to a Chauson dealer. My guess is that the battery failed which has led to you charger failing.

 

[Saltings]

I really think that you need to take this to a Chauson dealer. My guess is that the battery failed which has led to you charger failing.

Hi Pete,
We have since changed the battery with the help of CMG who form part of our insurance package. So the present one should be OK. Probably cannot do much until the motor home is brought back here in September. I am afraid Chauson dealers are few and far between. The one we used in June was a nightmare and is no longer a Chauson dealer, neither are they recommended by the Motorhome and Caravan Club!

 

[pappajohn]

Fridge does not work off 12v when driving. Only works on EHU or alternatively gas (when stationary). I had a feeling that last summer it worked off the 12v hab. batt., but maybe I'm wrong

And maybe you're right, if some clown has wired it wrongly.
It should run off the alternator when driving, via a relay, but if its been wire to the hab battery instead there lies the flat battery problem.
The fridge will draw a constant current, when switched to 12v, from your hab battery of 5 to 10 ah depending on make and model fridge.

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[Wildbill]

Could just be a diod falure
Bil

 

[Bengaz]

Hi
In the end we opted for a new battery and that seems to have solved most of the problems. However we have used EHU's a lot to power the fridge etc during the last few weeks so I can't say if we have solved the solar cell charging problem yet. I will see when back in the UK. We were lucky as our insurance includes home start and we needed that to get someone out to help to remove the drivers seat. Hab. batt. is under that seat.
One tip I picked up was to ensure that the wiring to the solar charge controller is correct. On ours
as shown below - 1st 2 terminals from the solar cells 9reads about 20v in daylight), 2nd 2 MUST be for the Hab. batt. (70% of charge) and final 2 to motor battery. Last two to read about 12.7v.
2nd tip was to add + & - wires from the new battery terminals to an easily accessible point under front seat. That way we can always run a trickle charger in an emergency direct to the hab. batt. Thist was previously impossible to do.
Hope that helps a little.
Cheers
Saltings
View attachment 180825

I only get 12.6v from solar panel I've just checked yesterday.
Both my batteries seem to have recovered now but both read 12.6V. Looks like thats the max I will see from the batteries if thats all the solar panel is kicking out. The batteries show as 3 quarters full on the chausson control panel.

 

[funflair]

I only get 12.6v from solar panel I've just checked yesterday.
Both my batteries seem to have recovered now but both read 12.6V. Looks like thats the max I will see from the batteries if thats all the solar panel is kicking out. The batteries show as 3 quarters full on the chausson control panel.

I guess you mean that you have checked the solar panel voltage at the at the regulator terminals, it should be more than 12.6v but it would be worth disconnecting the panel from the controller and trying it again totally open circuit if its still 12.6v your panel is kn------d.

Martin

 

[Saltings]

The solar panel on our Chausson 625 reads 21 V at the controller panel which is about right. This goes down to about 18 V when very cloudy.
If you are only getting 12.6 V I think Martin may well be correct. Depends on the age of your cells and are they clean and not covered in green algha!

 

[Bengaz]

I think you both may be correct! The van and cab batteries may be backfeeding the panel input terminals on the controller which may be why I am getting the same voltage!
What do I know, I'm only a sparky doh!
I'm going to try that now, this panel is only 18 months old and is a flat Baird type one (130w I think), quite expensive

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[Bengaz]

OK. You do not get a backfeed at the controller "panel" terminals. The voltage you see is the actual panel voltage.
Panel voltage is 10.6, its cloudy but bright, maximum I've seen is 13v other day when testing.
10.6v isn't enough even to illuminate the " panel connected" green LED.
How reliable are these thin panels nowadays?

 

[peterc10]

The voltage from the panel going into the solar regulator should be about 20V on a sunny day. The regulator takes it down to the voltage required by the battery.

 

[Bengaz]

The voltage from the panel going into the solar regulator should be about 20V on a sunny day. The regulator takes it down to the voltage required by the battery.

Yeah, mine appears to be faulty somehow.
Thought these were meant to be good for 25 years?

 

[andy63]

Interesting reading..
I'll add my thoughts..
All 12v panel voltages will be in the order of 20 odd volts regardless of the amount of light.. it's the current capacity that is dependant on the intensity of the light..

If you are checking voltages it's most probably best to disconnect and check the readings on the wires rather than controller terminals..
The readings on the terminals may depend on the type of controller fitted..ie a pwm controller is just a switch that connects and disconnects the battery from the panel..
The panel voltage been pulled down by the battery load..

An mppt controller disconnects the battery from the panel and chooses the optimum voltage to obtain max power output from the panel under the given light conditions..
That's my understanding anyway.. so always best to check your voltages with the wires disconnected..
Andy.

 

[Saltings]

Interesting reading..
I'll add my thoughts..
All 12v panel voltages will be in the order of 20 odd volts regardless of the amount of light.. it's the current capacity that is dependant on the intensity of the light..

If you are checking voltages it's most probably best to disconnect and check the readings on the wires rather than controller terminals..
The readings on the terminals may depend on the type of controller fitted..ie a pwm controller is just a switch that connects and disconnects the battery from the panel..
The panel voltage been pulled down by the battery load..

An mppt controller disconnects the battery from the panel and chooses the optimum voltage to obtain max power output from the panel under the given light conditions..
That's my understanding anyway.. so always best to check your voltages with the wires disconnected..
Andy.

www.victronenergy.com

They have a good article explaining the differences between the pwm and the mppt controllers. In my ignorance, Andy, I didn't know there were two types! In our Chausson 625 Flash we have a Solar Technology Dual Battery Controller - I guess the 20A model. I have always read all voltahes by just using the meter making contact with the screw head, which seems pretty accurate.

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