Gas Tank Replacement Rule & Certificate Denial

[Kemerton527]

Have been told today by service engineer that my gas tank is just over ten years old so he will not give me a gas safe certificate , new regulations are if your tank is ten years old you have to have it replaced, can’t find any up to date news on this, as anybody heard the same

 

[Nirvanauk]

our under slung tank comes up to 10 years in couple of years time, we would like a bigger tank fitted would it cost much more we currently have a 20 ltr tank i think. standard sprinter autosleeper winchcome tank

Basildog

 

[roadwarrior]

i will when i get closer to the time just curious

 

[jongood]

So while it is not unlawful for an individual to continue to use a LPG cylinder that does not meet the requirements of the industry codes of practice,

I think it's turning this bit into legislation that we're discussing.

 

[oldiesontour]

our under slung tank comes up to 10 years in couple of years time, we would like a bigger tank fitted would it cost much more we currently have a 20 ltr tank i think. standard sprinter autosleeper winchcome tank

Have a look at prices on tinternet,several suppliers listed with websites

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[knokinonabit]

I am pretty sure your paperwork stated the requirements of an annual inspection and that at 10 years recertification was required.
I wasn’t in the industry at the time but I know the previous owners were instrumental in pushing many of the paperwork requirements for the inspection and maintenance of LPG systems.

Autogas 2000 fitted our refillable system back in 2012 to our previous motorhome. The paperwork and certification stated that there was a 10 year life span on everything, including the pigtails.
I read through the instructions and certification that I was given at the time and understood it. In my own opinion, just because you weren’t told of something, that’s no excuse.
The certs and paperwork went with the MH when it was sold for the new owner to read.

 

[sfrain145]

Installers should be telling customers before installation that you need a brand new tank at 10 years, it should be on their websites and in the paperwork and verbally explained.

We had ours fitted in 2018 by Autogas 2000, not a word about it mentioned and nothing on their website at the time.

Its on a small bit of paper you get, with tiny writing,

 

[sfrain145]

Have a look at prices on tinternet,several suppliers listed with websites

I think this is the same as a lot of things its all to do with common sense, do you want to drive around with a bomb strapped to your pride and joy, maybe not, also things like tyres and air bags and suspension air bags all have a life span, timing belts so we just need to be mindful of moving parts in your gas tank will degrade over time so preventative it the answer,

 

[Pedro Pallent]

It must be a right bugger trying to isolate that tank when Eurotunnel ask you to demonstrate that it is isolated.

Ian

my tank has an isolator valve inside the original gas locker, where the pipe goes into the van.

 

[gus-lopez]

On my last spanish coachbuilt the bulk tank was on the outside of the chassis rail & enclosed by the side body panel.When I was commenting on how stupid this was to a spanish engineer he said that that was where they were asked to install them? To replace my regulator & some of the pipework I had to remove the whole lower side of the van.Nothing was possible through the 'locker' door except to shut the inlet from fill valve & outlet from tank & to view the contents gauge

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[corconx]

Realistically if your van is of certain age, does it really matter unless you are wanting to sell it on? If it does not leak and passes its test which any habitation service guy has to check regardless...ignore it. If it has failed then its understandable to have to replace it that would just be common sense . If it has passed its gas safety regardless of age...move on. Enjoy your journeys.

Kev

Gas not always checked. It’s an extra cost

 

[Speve]

For those that are changing their cylinders st ten years old which I am in the process of doing if you have a Hymer with the slide out cylinder rack there is a small hose connected to that which needs replacing as well.
As usual Hymer have used a very hard to obtain GOK rubber low pressure hose 800mm long with RVS 8 fittings on either end just had a quote from Hymer of £88.64 including delivery. Another case of ridiculous pricing by Hymer.

 

[Basildog]

For those that are changing their cylinders st ten years old which I am in the process of doing if you have a Hymer with the slide out cylinder rack there is a small hose connected to that which needs replacing as well.
As usual Hymer have used a very hard to obtain GOK rubber low pressure hose 800mm long with RVS 8 fittings on either end just had a quote from Hymer of £88.64 including delivery. Another case of ridiculous pricing by Hymer.

Take a picture of the hose if you like , we can supply any GOK products

 

[sfrain145]

also if its any use we have a place near me who can make pipes of all sizes and shapes, called Manflex

 

[Coolcats]

Just a quickie...Last time any one filled up their gas (LPG ) from a garage or like we do from our local Lp gas suppliers ...did anyone get asked for a test certificate to prove its worthiness before they filled up? No ...I doubt it very much either.
Gas suppliers to the trade in Wolverhampton BOC ...Take our Oxy acetylene bottles and refill without hesitation. Some of the bottles we use are stamped with dates ranging from 1997 to 2012. There are actually 12 in total. None have ever been refused a refill yet.

Just a thought.

My only thought here is insurance and payout….any cylinder that is out of date fails and causes an issue do you think an insurance company will cover the incident.

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[Speve]

Take a picture of the hose if you like , we can supply any GOK products

Here you go mate I did manage to get a GOK hose and a straight connector which will do the job but it’s another joint I didn’t want but it will do the job.
It will be really useful if you can get them as there must be lots of folk with the slide out rack that will need to replace it even if they don’t have refillables

 

[bigtwin]

my tank has an isolator valve inside the original gas locker, where the pipe goes into the van.

Does that isolate the HP side, or the LP side?

I have a number of inboard isolation valves but those are on the LP side and won’t satisfy the boarding staff as evidence of isolating the tanks.

Ian

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

My only thought here is insurance and payout….any cylinder that is out of date fails and causes an issue do you think an insurance company will cover the incident

GAS-IT website carried the following statement :

Under current UK & EU law, privately owned end-user owned refillable gas bottles or gas tanks do not need to be legally tested every 10 years as normal gas bottles issued by the big commercial companies do but to be safer than sorry we would always recommend that they are checked and inspected, even if that is just by a GAS IT trained engineer who can check the physical look and condition of the tank/bottle and its valves functionality.

The relevant UK and EU laws were not identified and I don't know if that statement was ever challenged. As Paul Mold has his motorhome's gas-tank inspected annually by a GAS-IT agent, Paul may be able to confirm if Dragon Products still make that claim and can verify which UK/EU laws apply.

Hope this might help a little to each and any one who may be concerned ......from Gas It direct

Kev

 

[Stoosal]

I have a feeling that gas it information is well past its use by date?

 

[Mikeco]

I have a feeling that gas it information is well past its use by date?

Why is it, that statement was made in 2020 and as far as I am aware the Code of Practice has not changed in that time. What has changed is that Autogas 2000 who bought the Gas it brand think differently. Wonder why?

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[MrLobby]

So, doing the maths, £1321 for an underslung equates to £132.10 each year, but then of course in ten years it will be more expensive. However at £132.10 per year, does that really provide a cost effective solution to lpg use by using an underslung as opposed to cylinders?


Or is it better to reduce LPG use as much as possible and then just stick with exchange cylinders?
When Gaslow had 15 year cylinders it seemed an obvious option and a better solution in terms of cost effectiveness.

Now I am beginning to think about whether the lithium dream is just a similar bubble a lot of us are experiencing ....

How Much Does Motorhome LPG Tank Installation Cost?

Find your motorhome LPG tank installation cost with our handy guide and learn all about the benefits of installing an underslung LPG tank in your vehicle.

www.motorhomeworkshop.co.uk

Cylinders are also subject to 10 year replacement

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

I have a feeling that gas it information is well past its use by date?

Not sure to be really honest as it is on their web site plus there's a link from ELoGas stating the same information .
Its a bit of a minefield if the truth be known.

 

[pappajohn]

Lpg suppliers can refuse to fill out of test tanks and cylinders.

When was the last time you were asked to produce your certificate before refilling ?

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Just a thought here but...The Companies selling Autosleeper motorhomes which you often see advertised with having the underslung tank fitted. Would it be up to them to change the tanks then before they could be sold if its of a 2014 reg etc? Not just Auto sleeper but any of them which is fitted with Gaslow , Gas It , Underslung etc? I just cannot see that happening at all ? The likes of the dealers etc will always promise you that its serviced and up to specs...so is it just possible to believe that they too dont see it has being an issue? Just a thought as there are a couple of decent ones available from a number of Top dealers around the areas?

 

[TrudeandDall]

GAS-IT website carried the following statement :

Under current UK & EU law, privately owned end-user owned refillable gas bottles or gas tanks do not need to be legally tested every 10 years as normal gas bottles issued by the big commercial companies do but to be safer than sorry we would always recommend that they are checked and inspected, even if that is just by a GAS IT trained engineer who can check the physical look and condition of the tank/bottle and its valves functionality.

The relevant UK and EU laws were not identified and I don't know if that statement was ever challenged. As Paul Mold has his motorhome's gas-tank inspected annually by a GAS-IT agent, Paul may be able to confirm if Dragon Products still make that claim and can verify which UK/EU laws apply.

Hope this might help a little to each and any one who may be concerned ......from Gas It direct

Kev

I pointed out in #88 the status of UK Health and Safety laws and the legal status of Industry Codes of Practice within UK H&S law.
Gas-It, at that time, may gave been correctly quoting the requirements of UK H&S law and applying the UK gas code of practice in recommending that tanks should be inspected annually.
It would be interesting to see what year this historical information that you are quoting dates from, and importantly, how this compares to the latest UK Gas Industry Code of Practice. Which, by the way, the UK LPG suppliers must adhere to.
This forum is great for sharing different views on many subjects and I appreciate its value very much.
However as an experienced Safety Manager with many years working in the oil and gas business - I firmly believe that safety requirements are there for a reason.
But I cannot understand how people will continually challenge gas safety requirements in a leisure vehicle simply because of the cost of implementing those safety requirements.

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[Stoosal]

Not sure to be really honest as it is on their web site plus there's a link from ELoGas stating the same information .
Its a bit of a minefield if the truth be known.

I think that in general terms you can use a privately owned cylinder outwith its recertification period. That period is an industry derived time period. I’m not aware of any specific piece of legislation which determines it.
What has started to change is the industry is becoming more aware of its own codes of practice which effectively state that, under their own guidance, they cannot fill a cylinder outwith its certification period. They are more aware of it as more people are actually using their own private, refillable, and often self installed cylinders.
Any incidents involving a cylinder could fall under the remit of HSE who use/consider these codes and standards to decide if a prosecution should be taken forward. Businesses involved in refilling are therefore starting to comply with their own code of practice. That includes the recertification process. Nobody wants to carry out recertification of these cylinders and they therefore fall out of the industry standards for complying with them and as such effectively become scrap.
As far as I am aware there is no specific piece of legislation which sends you to jail, as an owner for filling or using such a cylinder but, if an incident does occur there are other pieces of legislation which could be used in a court setting against those who allow them to be filled etc.

 

[TrudeandDall]

I think that in general terms you can use a privately owned cylinder outwith its recertification period. That period is an industry derived time period. I’m not aware of any specific piece of legislation which determines it.
What has started to change is the industry is becoming more aware of its own codes of practice which effectively state that, under their own guidance, they cannot fill a cylinder outwith its certification period. They are more aware of it as more people are actually using their own private, refillable, and often self installed cylinders.
Any incidents involving a cylinder could fall under the remit of HSE who use/consider these codes and standards to decide if a prosecution should be taken forward. Businesses involved in refilling are therefore starting to comply with their own code of practice. That includes the recertification process. Nobody wants to carry out recertification of these cylinders and they therefore fall out of the industry standards for complying with them and as such effectively become scrap.
As far as I am aware there is no specific piece of legislation which sends you to jail, as an owner for filling or using such a cylinder but, if an incident does occur there are other pieces of legislation which could be used in a court setting against those who allow them to be filled etc.

I've just check the Gas-It technical pages and this is their up to date information.

"Under UK law, privately owned end-user owned refillable gas bottles or gas tanks now need to be legally tested every 10 years as normal exchange type gas bottles are and we can't stress how important this is."

Hopefully this confirmation message from Gas-It (Autogas 2000 ~ Basildog) will put the lid on this subject.

 

[Mikeco]

I've just check the Gas-It technical pages and this is their up to date information.

"Under UK law, privately owned end-user owned refillable gas bottles or gas tanks now need to be legally tested every 10 years as normal exchange type gas bottles are and we can't stress how important this is."

Hopefully this confirmation message from Gas-It (Autogas 2000 ~ Basildog) will put the lid on this subject.

I would like to see a copy of the said Law or even the Code of Practice.

 

[Basildog]

Just a thought here but...The Companies selling Autosleeper motorhomes which you often see advertised with having the underslung tank fitted. Would it be up to them to change the tanks then before they could be sold if its of a 2014 reg etc? Not just Auto sleeper but any of them which is fitted with Gaslow , Gas It , Underslung etc? I just cannot see that happening at all ? The likes of the dealers etc will always promise you that its serviced and up to specs...so is it just possible to believe that they too dont see it has being an issue? Just a thought as there are a couple of decent ones available from a number of Top dealers around the areas?

All the decent dealers will always change or remove out of date tanks / cylinders from their sale vehicles.
Just as they change gas regulators and gas hoses at 10 years for most .
There is now an NCC recognised tank training course so many more workshops are now aware of their responsibilities.
The old advice was for approved workshops not to touch refillable systems as they didn’t have the required knowledge.

 

[Basildog]

Why is it, that statement was made in 2020 and as far as I am aware the Code of Practice has not changed in that time. What has changed is that Autogas 2000 who bought the Gas it brand think differently. Wonder why?

Absolutely nothing to do with Autogas 2000 .
We have always advised customers that Underslung LPG tanks and all refillable LPG cylinders / bottles had a 10 year lifespan.
Unfortunately many people didn’t read the paperwork.
The biggest change was probably when Liquid Gas wrote to everyone confirming that user owned refillable tanks and cylinders were subject to the same rules as any other commercially owned ones.
This was around the time I took over Autogas 2000 and along with others contributed to hopefully making the industry safer.
Every year especially as the weather warms up we will see both cylinders and tanks leaking, tanks especially are prone to corrosion when not maintained and go porous eventually fizzing and bubbling on the surface as liquid state gas seeps out .
We would be pretty negligent if we chose to ignore the industry advice especially as it would almost certainly be the Same professional experts that would give evidence to any hearing in the event of an incident.

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[Kannon Fodda]

When was the last time you were asked to produce your certificate before refilling ?

As my van clearly has a 2019 registration, and underslung tanks therefore cannot be older than the van (unless somehow they were transferred from somewhere else), no obvious checks other than some garages looking to see the van had a proper fixed installation.

When I used to fill scuba cylinders, first thing checked was date stamps on the cylinder that showed testing, and then, the labelling of dates when cylinder was last cleaned and thus suited to pure oxygen fill for diver's gas blending.