London Emission Zone Petition

[ourcampersbeentrashed]

This may not be a popular post, but it reflects my honest personal views.

I'm not supporting this petition.

I'm not persuaded at all as to why motorhomes are somehow a "special case" and thus should be exempted.
If we are are not going to totally destroy our (only) planet in a few generations by our continuing greed and selfishness, then we are ALL going have to start changing our behaviours, big time.

I applaud all and any attempts to clean up the air quality in big, traffic congested cities such as London.

Unless the policies adopted hurt enough (me, as well as everyone else), they just ain't going to work.

(As an aside - it really doesn't look wonderful when the petition title even spells "emissions" incorrectly.)

I can quite understand your posting. We live in London and our vehicle is on the list of motorhomes that will be subject to the LEZ charge which will mean we have to pay £200 per day for the privilege of owning a motorhome in London.

The thing is, our vehicle is well under the emission limits so I dont see why we should have to pay just because our vehicles registration number is not exempt.

It seems very unfair to us

 

[GJH]

I can quite understand your posting. We live in London and our vehicle is on the list of motorhomes that will be subject to the LEZ charge which will mean we have to pay £200 per day for the privilege of owning a motorhome in London.

The thing is, our vehicle is well under the emission limits so I dont see why we should have to pay just because our vehicles registration number is not exempt.

It seems very unfair to us

The LEZ is not based on registration numbers but on emissions. The only way in which registration numbers are used is to identify vehicles which are new enough to comply as a group without the need for individual proof.

If your emissions are low enough to comply then you should get in touch with TfL to ensure that it is registered as such. The LEZ web site has details of how to do so.

Strictly speaking you won't be charged £200 a day for owning the MH. The charge is levied on days when non-compliant vehicles are driven within the LEZ area so nothing is payable if it is simply parked up.

Graham

 

[Mavis]

emission

Just give me to 16th (next thursday) I ran it for a year as so many people hadnt even heard of it (they have now)
I will be sending the petition to Boris and to my MP and to the Europian Parliment
I had this following Letter which explained to me It was first raised by the Goverment who then handed the control over to The London Mayor and he then raised the £200 per day fine.
Europe is far more lenient than that so why do we have to have this high fine.
Greed is the only word I can think of.

From the Minister of State
Rt Hon Rosie Winterton MP


Julian Brazier TD MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A OAA

Dear Julian
Thank you for your letter of 29 October 2007 enclosing correspondence from your constituent Mrs Mavis Nye about the classification of motorhomes and the London low emissions zone (LLEZ)
I have noted Mrs Nye's concerns but, following the creation of the Greater London Authority. Transport for London (TFL) (under the Mayors jurisdiction) is now responsible for the day to day management of the transport services in London (with exception of the National Railway at present.)

Parliament gave the Mayor of London the powers to introduce road charging schemes in Greater London in the Greater London Authority (GLA) act 1999 which created the Greater London Authority.
The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality for those living, working or studying in London, as well as to help London and the UK move closer to achieving national and EU air quality targets.
The Government remains committed to improving air quality and the Department for Transport supports the aims of the LLEZ
Mrs Nye is correct in suggesting that in principle, motorhomes are classified as Category M1 vehicles under European Vehicle approval regulations Unfortunately some motorhome converters use the base vehicles type approval details (usually the base vehicle is a truck chassis, which is category N 1) to gain registration and thus the vehicle is recorded within DVLA as N1 category and not M1.
The records held at DVLA will determine the category of emission charges.
If Mrs Nye's registration certificate (document V5C) shows the vehicle as a Motorhome but an N1 type approval category she should return it to DVLA with a covering letter for amendment.
I hope this explains the position
Rosie Winterton

 

[GJH]

(snip)
It was first raised by the Goverment who then handed the control over to The London Mayor and he then raised the £200 per day fine.
(snip)

Not quite accurate. What the letter says is that the power to introduce road charging was one of the powers given to the GLA by the Greater London Authority Act 1999, not that central government initiated the LEZ.

Graham

 

[Mavis]

emission

But it is right through Europe because the Targets was set by Europe and still are so I cant see why some people say it is all the idea of the London Mayor and also surely nothing is done wthout the Goverments approval??

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[GJH]

But it is right through Europe because the Targets was set by Europe and still are so I cant see why some people say it is all the idea of the London Mayor and also surely nothing is done wthout the Goverments approval??

Two points on the way in which legislation is made in this country:
1) The European Parliament makes directives on all sorts of things. The way in which the directives become law in each individual country of the EU is up to that country. That is why (for instance) the UK Human Rights Act has so many fewer derogations than the equivalent legislation in other countries.
2) Here, some legislation is made for the whole of the UK by the parliament at Westminster and in other cases the ability to legislate is delegated to other bodies - Scottish parliament, Welsh & Northern Irish assemblies and councils.

In the case of the LEZ, the powers were given to the GLA as part of the legislation which set it up. The current government, as was said in the letter quoted earlier, "supports the aims of the LLEZ" - but that is not to say that it initiated the particular legislation.

As regards nothing being done without the Government's approval - Blair's government certainly didn't approve of the Ken Livingstone standing against the official Labour candidate and Brown's government didn't want Boris to beat Livingstone now that he is back in their fold.

We may well be against the LEZ applying to motorhomes but, however unpalatable it is, we have to face the facts:
1) The GLA is not currently going to change its position.
2) The government cannot overturn the GLA position without putting legislation through parliament.
3) The government can't lose because it will support the GLA if it thinks it will gain points by doing so and will say that it is nothing to do with them if it all goes wrong.

Graham

 

[Mavis]

emission

Thanks for taking the time and explaining to me properly.
Well it still doesnt hurt to let them know how we feel, as they treat us sometimes like we have no opinions and we should stand up to them, and not just accept what they say and do,
We can only show how we feel when we vote but they do what they like in the 5 years.
Things are changing anyway the price of fuel is meaning that Members have to choose wisely where they travel to Rallies as it will cost £43 for us to put fuel in the tank and then the rally fee when we go to Sussex this weekend.
Thats if my money is Ok in the bank to draw out ATM.
In 2010 London members with an older Motorhome will have a fine to worry about or buy a new van isnt it all getting a bit to depressing.

 

[wolfy62]

Just signed up.
Do you really think this will change their minds,they seem to do what ever they want,as long as they are making money from it.
Syd

 

[GJH]

Just signed up.
Do you really think this will change their minds,they seem to do what ever they want,as long as they are making money from it.
Syd

The GLA stance is that the charge for non-compliant vehicles is so high is that they wish to deter those vehcles rather than make money from it. The argument that they make regarding improvement in air quality is a persuasive one and has many supporters.

What a number of individuals and organisations have done is to point out to the GLA what we feel is the imorality of applying the charge retrospectively to people who bought their motorhomes well before the charges were mooted and travel low mileages compared to the commercial vehicles which are the main target of deterence. The GLA, unfortunately, chooses not to agree with that argument. See examples below.

Graham

e-mail to BJ, June 2008
Dear Mr Johnson,

I assume that, over time, you will be examining many of the measures put in place by your predecessor to assess whether or not they stand up against your policies. When you consider the LEZ perhaps you would be good enough to take this message into account.

First of all, I am not a London resident (I live in Middlesbrough) but have an interest in the LEZ as my wife and I are the owners of a motorhome and are members of a regiment of the English Civil War Society which uses a lorry to transport bulky and heavy equipment essential to re-enactment displays. The motorhome is actually compliant with the requirements of the LEZ but the lorry is not. From my (perhaps one could say biased) view it would be ideal if all vehicles which are used only for leisure purposes were to be exempt from the LEZ requirements. Because of their usage they travel far lower distances each year than similar vehicles used for commercial purposes and, therefore, produce far less emissions. However, I can understand the counter arguments which support the current position regarding applying the LEZ requirements.

Where I do think there is an injustice, though, is that there is no exemption for people who live within the zone and purchased (what are now) non-compliant leisure vehicles well before the LEZ was mooted. I can see the validity of an argument which says that anyone purchasing such a vehicle after the LEZ started should be charged but it seems to me unjust that people who bought their vehicles beforehand should be faced with a measure which, in practical terms, is retrospective. These are people who committed no wrong when they purchased their vehicles but are now faced with high charges if they merely wish to drive from and to their homes on holiday.

I urge that, even if you feel unable to make all "leisure use only" vehicles exempt, you find the compassion to exempt the relatively low number of people affected by the retrospective measure.

Response from TfL
Thank you for your email of 5 June 2008 addressed to Mayor Johnson regarding the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). As one of the Customer Liaison Officers your email has been referred to me from the mayor’s office for a response.

The aim of the LEZ is to improve air quality in London by deterring the most individually polluting vehicles from driving in the area. Air pollution affects the quality of life of a large number of Londoners, especially those with respiratory and cardiovascular conditions. It was estimated that in 2005 some 1000 premature deaths and similar number of hospital admissions occurred due to poor air quality in London.

The Mayor has confirmed that he wishes TfL to implement the next phase of the Low Emissions Zone (LEZ). From 7 July 2008 lorries over 3.5 tonnes and buses and coaches over 5 tonnes with more than nine seats must comply with the requirements of the LEZ. Full details of the LEZ can be obtained via the LEZ website, Link Removed or by calling TfL on 08456070009. However, the Mayor has announced that the plans to further extend the scheme to include heavy vans and minibuses from 2010, will be reviewed.

The Mayor of London is responsible for setting transport policy in the Capital; therefore we are not in a position to rule out any future developments.

Whilst I note your suggestions that TfL should exempt vehicles used for personal/leisure purposes this would defeat the objective of the LEZ. It would not be appropriate for TfL to distinguish between vehicles for commercial or personal use because no matter what their operational use, they still emit the same level of pollutants per kilometre travelled. It would also be unfair to other vehicle operators who have acted to ensure their vehicles comply with the LEZ.

It is for this reason that the introduction of LEZ has been staggered to give people the opportunity to make the relevant amendments, or to replace their vehicles in the timeframe provided.

Operators of vehicles which do not meet the specified emissions standards for the LEZ have several options to comply with the scheme including:
Fitting particulate abatement equipment to the vehicle. It should be possible to fit such equipment to reduce a vehicle’s particulate matter emissions sufficiently to meet the LEZ emissions standard. Normally this would either be a particulate trap or a partial filter. Information on approved abatement equipment and suppliers for fitting such equipment can be found on TfL’s website at Link Removed, together with the processes for getting approved abatement equipment certified once fitted.
Re-engine a vehicle with an engine that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
Converting a vehicle to gas.
Purchasing a newer vehicle that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
Paying a daily charge.

Transport for London always welcomes customer feedback. I will note your comments on our customer suggestions log which is periodically reviewed by our senior management.

Thank you once again for taking the time to write.

 

[Mavis]

emission

(Operators of vehicles which do not meet the specified emissions standards for the LEZ have several options to comply with the scheme including:
1)Fitting particulate abatement equipment to the vehicle. It should be possible to fit such equipment to reduce a vehicle’s particulate matter emissions sufficiently to meet the LEZ emissions standard. Normally this would either be a particulate trap or a partial filter. Information on approved abatement equipment and suppliers for fitting such equipment can be found on TfL’s website at Low Emission Zone | Transport for London, together with the processes for getting approved abatement equipment certified once fitted.
2)Re-engine a vehicle with an engine that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
3)Converting a vehicle to gas.
4)Purchasing a newer vehicle that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
Paying a daily charge.)

Point 1 It is not available for private vehicles at the moment and estimated costs when they are will be Approx £3000.00-£5000.00
Point 2 Re-engine not practical due to manufacturing restraints.
Point 3 The engine will still need to comply as it runs on duel fuel.
pont 4 to buy a new vehicle is not the answer as at the moment a new engine complies until they ammend the emissions in 2012.
And can I add at this point vehicles fitted with air con whether used or not must also comply because of its emissions.

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[staging lady]

Just signed- better late... Hope it makes a difference but in these dicey times it's too good a source of revenue to pass up for the powers that be. Wait until tourist van numbers drop from the London attractions and the 2012 Olympics.

Just sorry for all those funsters who have vans parked in the smoke but have a feeling it will eventually be rolled out over the rest of the country.
Lucille

 

[Mavis]

emission

Right I cannot change the wording to no 10 but I have copied the Petition
(all 20 pages) to prepare it to be sent to others.
I have been able to correct my Typing errors
If I reword it at this point would this sound better.
I welcome any advice but I must close this by Sunday to send it off Monday.

E-Petitions.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Exempt Motorhomes from the new Emission Charges. More details
Submitted by Mavis Nye of Motorhome Caravanners Club – Deadline to sign up by: 16 October 2008 – Signatures: 897


More details from petition creator
Motorhome Owners average Mileage in England is aprox 6,000 per year. We rally at weekends and enjoy holidays around the country.
This Recreation is enjoyed by many including families and retired couples and so we cannot afford these disproportional fines or scrap our vehicles, as advised in many of the articles on the subject. Our carbon footprint is very small compared to Lorries (English or foreign).
Current signatures
Mavis Nye, the Petition Creator, joined by:

 

[Rose Royce]

I would remind you that the Government have no right to intervene in the way the GLA runs its devolved affairs. I don't understand what it is you are now trying to do. It would be better if a new petition was started, addressed to Boris Johnson,that highlights the inequity of the situation motorhome ownners within the zone will(are?) suffer and also the great discrepancy between the penalty for entering the LLEZ and those others in Europe.
I would be quite happy to draft such a petition for agreement by other members of this forum.

 

[Mavis]

emission

Hi and I would be the first to sign it :thumb:

What Im trying to do at the moment is to get people that havent signed' because they think the No10 one is not worded right to help me reword it now so I can send it to Boris with the handwritten petition I have raised.

I cant change the No 10 one that will close today but I have copied and pasted it and will send it to Boris and Europe Mp's (who have shown an interest and have guided me through the year)
As it has been running for a year things changed in that time' people have seen what I was saying was true as so many people hadnt even heard of the problem then.
£100 in £100 out they are now getting that in writting in London those that wont comply in 2010.
Plans are going ahead I believe for other cities to follow.
oh:

 

[Mavis]

emission

Thank you for your support this year.
I had 912 people sign the petition and I have raised a handwritten one with over 150 signatures.
I will now forward these to Boris, London Transport, My own MP Julian Frazier who helped me so much, and The European Parliament and Euro MP's
Thank you again I really have enjoyed meeting such a great bunch of people and hope I have helped in passing on all that was happening in the LEZ as it was being set up.
Regards Mavis (Locovan)

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[Braunston]

Hi, Mavis (Locovan)

Thank you for all your hard work and i really do hope it does some good

Braunston

 

[mikev]

mikev

new to forum so this may be in wrong place but can anyone tell me if fitting a particulate filter to a 1998 swift sundance (fiat 2.5D NON- Turbo) will affect the performance. I have enough trouble getting up steep hills as it is.

regsrds

Mikev

 

[Mavis]

emission

If you can find any manufacturer of such a device currently available it will cost between £3000.00 and £5000.00 and it will only meet the standards set out until 2012 (as recently quoted to a member of the MCC)

Can I add on here a bit from the German Emission Zone to let you know this is becoming the basis of my argument to Boris


Further exemptions for individuals and businesses
inside and outside the Emission Zone
(limited use)
For vehicles used for commercial purposes that are driven
no more than 2,000 km per year inside the Emission
Zone.
For private vehicles that are driven no more than 500 km
per year inside the Emission Zone.
Drivers must keep a logbook of all journeys inside the
Emission Zone.
The kilometre limits will be checked. If you are granted
an exemption you must present the logbook regularly for
inspection at Hannover City Council offices. Exceeding
the limit automatically cancels the exemption.
These exemptions apply until 31st Dec. 2009 at the latest;
from 2010 there will be new regulations based on
the legal situation applying then.
Exemptions for single journeys and brief periods
Short-term exemptions can be granted for:
Single journeys e.g. to keep appointments at short
notice or for a special event,
A brief period e.g. when a resident inside the Emission
Zone wishes to set off from home in his/her motor
caravan. An exemption can also be granted for a transitional
period when a new vehicle has been ordered but
not delivered before the Emission Zone regulations come
into force.

 

[denisew123]

Petition closed

The petition is closed now so couldnt add my signature, lets hope its succesful

 

[Mavis]

emission

If you Email me your name and address i can add you to my handwritten petition today You will find my email address on my web site
:thumb:

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