Lithium upgrade advice please for new Globecar

[Ian_H]

Hi All
We have recently acquired a shiny new Globecar Summit 540 Shine (Fiat Ducato 140 manual). I'm fairly certain we need to upgrade from the 95Ah AGM leisure battery it came with.
I didn't get the dealer to do it after asking what extra lead battery they could supply. The answer was "probably gel, but it depends what's in the workshop at the time".

The system consists of:
a CB516-3 charger that does not have a lithium option. I also noticed it has a desulphation mode which you do not appear to be able to disable. I believe this is not a good idea for lithium batteries.

The control unit is CEB PC260-HL with a DS300SK distribution board. I haven't looked inside the distribution board but there is a line in the manual saying split relay not present.
Slightly worryingly the fuse ratings fitted in the DS300 do not all tally with the Globecar manual, although much of the manual is out of date.
The PC260 manual says it can provide 2A to the starter battery, with priority to the leisure battery.
There is no mention of lithium compatibility in the PC260 manual.

A Schaudt (Lippert) battery booster is fitted- WA121525, it has a lithium setting and appears to provide max current of 25A.

The big drain is the 100 litre fridge/freezer, a Dometic RC10.4P.100. The manual quotes 38Ah/24 hours in standard mode, so I guess it will work harder and use more in hot conditions. The installation manual recommends a 10A fuse, but the globecar and PC260 manuals says 15A, which is what is fitted. The average current draw is quoted at 4A in the Dometic manual.
I am thinking of going for the underseat fogstar 230Ah battery. Probably solar on the roof, although we also want be able to carry a canoe.
I guess what I am looking for are some well informed opinions on such questions as
1. What make/model/size of mains charger that would also provide something to the starter battery?
2. Can the PC260 panel still be used - I understand the leisure battery level would be meaningless - the fogstar app would provide this?
3. Is the schaudt booster big enough - if not could I use another in parallel or best to get one of correct size?
Apologies if I haven't provided enough info, ask and I'll do my best to supply!

Many Thanks
Ian

 

[lorger]

Not able to give you advice but if you search on here gerry mcg has a Globecar and changed to Lithium while doing an informative post.

I’ve tagged him so he’ll see it next time he’s online.

 

[gerry mcg]

Not able to give you advice but if you search on here gerry mcg has a Globecar and changed to Lithium while doing an informative post.

I’ve tagged him so he’ll see it next time he’s online.

Hello
i changed my 2x95Ah AGM batteries to a 200Ah LiFePO4 under driver seat battery , 175W Solar with a 50A votronic vcc121250 B2B - but my my onboard electrics are different from yourd - my setup is
a Schaudt EBL119 which has a VanBitzbattery master to trickle charge the Starter battery with a Schaudt LT100 control panel
The Solar and B2B are wired directly to to the Battery, (bypassing the EBL).
The EBL split charge has been disabled by removing the power in to the EBL from the starter batter / alternator.
i have added a victron IP22 15A blue-smart charger with a dedicated lithium profile to charge the lithium battery when on hookup, and i disabled the EBL119 charger by removing the charger fuse from the EBL.

 

[Gerry77]

Hello
i changed my 2x95Ah AGM batteries to a 200Ah LiFePO4 under driver seat battery , 175W Solar with a 50A votronic vcc121250 B2B - but my my onboard electrics are different from yourd - my setup is
a Schaudt EBL119 which has a VanBitzbattery master to trickle charge the Starter battery with a Schaudt LT100 control panel
The Solar and B2B are wired directly to to the Battery, (bypassing the EBL).
The EBL split charge has been disabled by removing the power in to the EBL from the starter batter / alternator.
i have added a victron IP22 15A blue-smart charger with a dedicated lithium profile to charge the lithium battery when on hookup, and i disabled the EBL119 charger by removing the charger fuse from the EBL.

Sounds good but you lost me on the second line!

 

[hja]

Didnt understand all the technical stuff in your post I'm afraid but we have a 2021 Globecar Summit Prime 640. We changed our 95ah battery for a 230ah lithium earlier this year. It had an appropriate charger and b2b - one of them was a Schaudt. The new battery was installed under the seat in place of the original and we had a new solar controller mppt which I understand harnesses the solar more effectively. We already have a 120w solar panel. What ever needed to be switched to lithium was switched. Oak Tree motorhomes aka ecotree did the work. Total cost £1800. half a day's work. Previously, with compressor fridge, wouldnt do 2 nights off grid if the van was stationary and in the rain. Now, no problems, touch wood.

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[GMLS]

I think you'd find there is a setting on that charger that suits some lithium eg setting B and Fogstars?

 

[Ian_H]

I think you'd find there is a setting on that charger that suits some lithium eg setting B and Fogstars?View attachment 796633

Hi GMLS
All the CB516-3 charger settings include an initial desulphation stage where the voltage is 15.2V. Is this not potentially a problem ?
The first line from fogstar there also is pretty clear if there was a warranty issue, the battery should be charged with a lithium charger. Has anyone out there got experience of going back to fogstar successfully after using a lead acid charger?

 

[Ian_H]

Didnt understand all the technical stuff in your post I'm afraid but we have a 2021 Globecar Summit Prime 640. We changed our 95ah battery for a 230ah lithium earlier this year. It had an appropriate charger and b2b - one of them was a Schaudt. The new battery was installed under the seat in place of the original and we had a new solar controller mppt which I understand harnesses the solar more effectively. We already have a 120w solar panel. What ever needed to be switched to lithium was switched. Oak Tree motorhomes aka ecotree did the work. Total cost £1800. half a day's work. Previously, with compressor fridge, wouldnt do 2 nights off grid if the van was stationary and in the rain. Now, no problems, touch wood.

Hi hja
That's encouraging! Would you be able to have a look at the charger and booster to see what models you have?
Ian

 

[autorouter]

All the CB516-3 charger settings include an initial desulphation stage where the voltage is 15.2V. Is this not potentially a problem ?
The first line from fogstar there also is pretty clear if there was a warranty issue, the battery should be charged with a lithium charger.

CBE do a lithium charger, for example the CB522-LT. The 'absorption' voltage is 14.5V,and the 'float' voltage is 13.5V. Not exactly as recommended by Fogstar (14.4V, 13.8V), but you could ask them if those settings are suitable.

 

[hja]

Hi hja
That's encouraging! Would you be able to have a look at the charger and booster to see what models you have?
Ian

I will do so in the next couple of days. We are just preparing to go away, so it may be Sun or Monday.

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[Pausim]

The CB516-3 charger does not have a lithium setting and the desulphation phase would make it unsuitable for lithium. The earlier CB516 without desulphation is not perfect but useable for lithium.

 

[GMLS]

Hi GMLS
All the CB516-3 charger settings include an initial desulphation stage where the voltage is 15.2V. Is this not potentially a problem ?
The first line from fogstar there also is pretty clear if there was a warranty issue, the battery should be charged with a lithium charger. Has anyone out there got experience of going back to fogstar successfully after using a lead acid charger?

I'm about to purchase a Fogstar and my new m/h will have that charger so I've asked for confirmation of compatability and awaiting a reply which I'll share.

 

[GMLS]

The CB516-3 charger does not have a lithium setting and the desulphation phase would make it unsuitable for lithium. The earlier CB516 without desulphation is not perfect but useable for lithium.

Cheers.Making that sort of investment I'll just get a totally suitable charger.

 

[berni109]

A question to the op.
How do you use your van? Travelling a lot or static on hookup?

 

[Ian_H]

A question to the op.
How do you use your van? Travelling a lot or static on hookup?

Hi berni109
We like to find quiet sites that often don't have electric, and stay a few nights if there is plenty to do from the site (walking, canoeing, pubbing)

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[autorouter]

CBE 522-LT Lithium 22A charger, £230, Victron IP22 30A charger (with lithium setting and custom setting if you want finer control) £181. I know which one I'd go for, the Victron is better and more powerful too.

 

[Ian_H]

I'm about to purchase a Fogstar and my new m/h will have that charger so I've asked for confirmation of compatability and awaiting a reply which I'll share.

GMLS
Sounds like we're at a similar point, what van are you getting?

 

[berni109]

So you need to arrive with a full battery and a means to replace what you take out.
Battery to b on the way there solar when on site .
Forget your current charger - disconnect it.
100 amp battery and 300watts of solar will keep the fridge going plus led lighting water pump, heating fan for a few days.
With a few rainless day probably a week. Bigger battery more days till you need to drive somewhere.
Somewhere in classified I saw a renogy b2b and combined solar regulator for sale. In parallel with your already fitted b2b should give you plenty of amps .

 

[Ian_H]

So you need to arrive with a full battery and a means to replace what you take out.
Battery to b on the way there solar when on site .
Forget your current charger - disconnect it.
100 amp battery and 300watts of solar will keep the fridge going plus led lighting water pump, heating fan for a few days.
With a few rainless day probably a week. Bigger battery more days till you need to drive somewhere.
Somewhere in classified I saw a renogy b2b and combined solar regulator for sale. In parallel with your already fitted b2b should give you plenty of amps .

I'll have to see what can fit on the roof. The van is 5.4m long and there's 2 skylights. If the fridge is on it will use about 4 amps, so my existing b2b can put in another 21amps . So I guess 5 hours driving will charge up the fogstar by less than 50%. That doesn't seem great so your suggestion sounds good. I'll have a look for the renogy unit.

 

[autorouter]

I'll have to see what can fit on the roof. The van is 5.4m long and there's 2 skylights. If the fridge is on it will use about 4 amps, so my existing b2b can put in another 21amps . So I guess 5 hours driving will charge up the fogstar by less than 50%. That doesn't seem great so your suggestion sounds good. I'll have a look for the renogy unit.

These numbers don't add up, I think you're confusing amp-hours and amps. I don't know how many amp-hours (Ah) the fridge uses in a 24 hour period, but I'm sure it will be between 30Ah and 45Ah.

If the fridge uses 4A when it is on, then you might expect that in 24 hours it will use 4 x 24 = 96Ah. However the thermostat switches it on and off frequently. If it is off for about half the time, it will only use 48Ah in 24 hours. That's why the manufacturers quote an average usage (in amp-hours) per 24 hours, as well as the amps used whenever it is on.

If the B2B outputs 21A for 5 hours, that will add up to 21 x 5 = 105Ah, which by coincidence is exactly 100% of the battery capacity of your new battery. So you'd need 2.5 hours of driving to top it up from 50% to 100%.

A 100W solar panel can yield maybe 30Ah to 45Ah on a summer day, depending on the clouds. So 1 solar panel can just about keep a fridge going if the weather is good. 200W will give you enough to run all the other items as well, and 300W will give you the extra margin to tide you over a spell of bad weather. The 105Ah battery will store the solar energy ready to use when the sun doesn't shine.

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[GMLS]

GMLS
Sounds like we're at a similar point, what van are you getting?

Rapido 854f.Bit surprised that it doesn't appear the charger is suitable for lithium.Its 6.7m and we've only managed to get 2x175w panels on the roof so next step is to see what the B2B is going to give us as I didn't find it when we had a quick pre collection look over it.That might be the next item to be upgraded.

 

[Ian_H]

These numbers don't add up, I think you're confusing amp-hours and amps. I don't know how many amp-hours (Ah) the fridge uses in a 24 hour period, but I'm sure it will be between 30Ah and 45Ah.

If the fridge uses 4A when it is on, then you might expect that in 24 hours it will use 4 x 24 = 96Ah. However the thermostat switches it on and off frequently. If it is off for about half the time, it will only use 48Ah in 24 hours. That's why the manufacturers quote an average usage (in amp-hours) per 24 hours, as well as the amps used whenever it is on.

If the B2B outputs 21A for 5 hours, that will add up to 21 x 5 = 105Ah, which by coincidence is exactly 100% of the battery capacity of your new battery. So you'd need 2.5 hours of driving to top it up from 50% to 100%.

A 100W solar panel can yield maybe 30Ah to 45Ah on a summer day, depending on the clouds. So 1 solar panel can just about keep a fridge going if the weather is good. 200W will give you enough to run all the other items as well, and 300W will give you the extra margin to tide you over a spell of bad weather. The 105Ah battery will store the solar energy ready to use when the sun doesn't shine.

Hi autorouter
I was thinking of worst case when I said 4A eg having put non chilled food in or just turned on, so running constantly. The b2b is 25A so I was meaning there are 21A left to charge the battery. Way back at the top of the thread I mentioned getting the fogstar 230 (I noticed you are also helping someone who is getting a 105Ah, so maybe you were thinking of that?). So the 105Ah gained after 5 hours driving is a bit less than 115Ah, half the battery capacity.
The solar info is useful, I'll try to have a look on top today.

 

[Bolti]

Hi autorouter
I was thinking of worst case when I said 4A eg having put non chilled food in or just turned on, so running constantly. The b2b is 25A so I was meaning there are 21A left to charge the battery. Way back at the top of the thread I mentioned getting the fogstar 230 (I noticed you are also helping someone who is getting a 105Ah, so maybe you were thinking of that?). So the 105Ah gained after 5 hours driving is a bit less than 115Ah, half the battery capacity.
The solar info is useful, I'll try to have a look on top today

My van too is 5.4 m, 3 roof lights and a 200w panel fitted could have fitted a bigger one.

 

[TrudeandDall]

Hi All
We have recently acquired a shiny new Globecar Summit 540 Shine (Fiat Ducato 140 manual). I'm fairly certain we need to upgrade from the 95Ah AGM leisure battery it came with.
I didn't get the dealer to do it after asking what extra lead battery they could supply. The answer was "probably gel, but it depends what's in the workshop at the time".

The system consists of:
a CB516-3 charger that does not have a lithium option. I also noticed it has a desulphation mode which you do not appear to be able to disable. I believe this is not a good idea for lithium batteries.

The control unit is CEB PC260-HL with a DS300SK distribution board. I haven't looked inside the distribution board but there is a line in the manual saying split relay not present.
Slightly worryingly the fuse ratings fitted in the DS300 do not all tally with the Globecar manual, although much of the manual is out of date.
The PC260 manual says it can provide 2A to the starter battery, with priority to the leisure battery.
There is no mention of lithium compatibility in the PC260 manual.

A Schaudt (Lippert) battery booster is fitted- WA121525, it has a lithium setting and appears to provide max current of 25A.

The big drain is the 100 litre fridge/freezer, a Dometic RC10.4P.100. The manual quotes 38Ah/24 hours in standard mode, so I guess it will work harder and use more in hot conditions. The installation manual recommends a 10A fuse, but the globecar and PC260 manuals says 15A, which is what is fitted. The average current draw is quoted at 4A in the Dometic manual.
I am thinking of going for the underseat fogstar 230Ah battery. Probably solar on the roof, although we also want be able to carry a canoe.
I guess what I am looking for are some well informed opinions on such questions as
1. What make/model/size of mains charger that would also provide something to the starter battery?
2. Can the PC260 panel still be used - I understand the leisure battery level would be meaningless - the fogstar app would provide this?
3. Is the schaudt booster big enough - if not could I use another in parallel or best to get one of correct size?
Apologies if I haven't provided enough info, ask and I'll do my best to supply!

Many Thanks
Ian

Hello Ian. Don't get to tangled up with electricity numbers. We have the 90lt version of your fridge, and have 280 watts of solar, which even in the UK has run our fridge without a hook up since April with no appreciable impact on our 190 ah of (look away Lenny HB) AGM. Our solar is the primary charging source and the 25 amp Schaut B2B helps when we're on the move.
We find that the fridge is cool enough on No 1 setting as it is working quite hard in the 30 degrees we have at the moment in France.

 

[Ian_H]

My van too is 5.4 m, 3 roof lights and a 200w panel fitted could have fitted a bigger one.View attachment 797066

Hi Bolti
Thanks, that doesn't look too big
Ian

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[Ian_H]

Hello Ian. Don't get to tangled up with electricity numbers. We have the 90lt version of your fridge, and have 280 watts of solar, which even in the UK has run our fridge without a hook up since April with no appreciable impact on our 190 ah of (look away Lenny HB) AGM. Our solar is the primary charging source and the 25 amp Schaut B2B helps when we're on the move.
We find that the fridge is cool enough on No 1 setting as it is working quite hard in the 30 degrees we have at the moment in France.

Hi TrudeandDall
Sounds like the solar number is the important one for you! Out of interest, have you tried using the fridge with the slideout freezer compartment removed?

 

[MisterB]

If solar is going to be needed for hot climates, why not invest in an additional portable solar panel and look at a simple process to connect it up by installing an external socket of some sort??

 

[TrudeandDall]

Hi TrudeandDall
Sounds like the solar number is the important one for you! Out of interest, have you tried using the fridge with the slideout freezer compartment removed?

We did try with the freezer out last winter in the UK. The freezer temperature seems to be regulated by the fridge temperature
and in winter the fridge does not work very hard, which in turn resulted in the ice on the upper surface of the compartment thawing out and dripping water onto the contents. Trude was not to happy with that, so the freezer is back in. In the heat of France the fridge is working harder and nothing melts.

 

[sfrain145]

I think I am going to do the following as I also have a 90l compressor fridge and on the lowest setting runs perfect sucks out about 10amps from the battery per day then obviously the little 120w panel on the roof tries to top it back up, but doesn't just do it so a drive probably will help, I have recently got the underseat 230amp fogstar battery and it is a good bit of kit but all the other bits just dont do it for me, so I am going to remove the AC charging from the EBL 211 fir a stand alone lithium chargers as big (amps) as I can get and also fit a smaller charger for the starter battery for when on Hook up or plugged in on the drive, we hardly do hook up but want the best of both worlds, then I am going to pull out the sun control 320m MPPT as it seems sub standard and also remove the B2B that they fitted as I am also not convinced, (Schaudt WA121525) going to replace it with a 50 amp Renogy DC TO DC and Mppt as ive used these before and seem to do what I want also fit a Bluetooth dongle so I can geek out on the numbers, I would do Victron but it would mean more bits and I dont really have the space, views and opinions greatly appreciated as I havent yet pulled the trigger, also will be replacing the solar panel for as big as I can fit as I dont have space for more than one really

 

[berni109]

sfrain145 if I was starting again that is more or less exactly what I would do.
Looks like a cost effective solution and no struggle to find space to fit expensive blue boxes.

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