Lithium on hookup?

[Marie-Claire]

Hi all hoping someone can reassure me?. So i have fitted 2 x 100ah lithium to my adria fitted with a ne237 charging system . Out of the box the batteries were both showing 13.04v now wired in parallel and still showing 13.04 and all electrics working fine. I have connected to ehu at home and the panel is showing a draw of 15.8a. Is this normal until the batteries are charged and will reduce over time and is it safe to leave it like this overnight on ehu?, thoughts please

 

[Two on Tour]

At 13.04 volts your lithium batteries are only at about 35% state of charge, so will be drawing pretty well what your EHU charger can throw at them until they start reaching a higher SOC.
The charger input to your batteries will reduce as your batteries near a full state of charge.

Does your ne237 charger have a lithium charging profile option?

 

[Ingwe]

Hi all hoping someone can reassure me?. So i have fitted 2 x 100ah lithium to my adria fitted with a ne237 charging system . Out of the box the batteries were both showing 13.04v now wired in parallel and still showing 13.04 and all electrics working fine. I have connected to ehu at home and the panel is showing a draw of 15.8a. Is this normal until the batteries are charged and will reduce over time and is it safe to leave it like this overnight on ehu?, thoughts please

Not sure if this chart assists. It was provided by the installer of our 2x110ah lithium batteries.

sorry for display. The file wouldn’t load properly so I photo’d it and pasted here.

 

[Marie-Claire]

Thanks 2, have changed the charger to gel setting as recommended by fogstar and seconded by brownhills technical dep, i understand that b2b would improve things further but that may have to wait a while as from reading on here some functionality of the electrical system may be lost when the onboard charger is disconnected. How many hours would you expect the charger to take to get to a good soc ?.

 

[Lenny HB]

Your charger supports standard LA & Gel batteries make sure it is set to Gel the voltage will be too high for Lithium on LA.

Apuljack will mod it for Lithium for £125.

Nord NE237 Fuseboard & Integrated Charging Unit | Apuljack Electronics

The NE237 is a 12V power distribution unit with built in charger. It provides fusing, charging (both leisure and vehicle batteries), split charge, fridge contr

www.apuljackelectronics.co.uk

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[Two on Tour]

How many hours would you expect the charger to take to get to a good soc ?.

Around 7 to 8 hours.

 

[Marie-Claire]

Am i right in thinking if the temp falls below freezing the bms will pause charging? , should i leave the alde on very low?

 

[Two on Tour]

Am i right in thinking if the temp falls below freezing the bms will pause charging? , should i leave the alde on very low?

My understanding is that Fogstar lithium batteries have built-in heaters to maintain the battery temperature above freezing, but I would monitor your Fogstar app to see what the battery temperatures are and run your van heating if you have concerns.

 

[Marie-Claire]

I have renogy batteries as fogstar had no stock till the new year , will put the heating on just to be safe

 

[Gents]

I have 2 x 150 A NDS Lithium batteries installed, I in advertantantly ran them low enough for shut down, 10.5 , Hooked up to Home HU, overnight, Next morning Energy monitor showing 25% , left on HU, next morning, Energy Monitor showing slight increase, I looked at the Votronic Main charger, installed in the Van, that showed, Batteries Full ?
I am in the middle of upgrading my PVC, & not had chance to test anything in Anger.
The temperature is low so I suspect that the overnight charge may be interrupted. I have Temperature Sensors on the system. Any thoughts would be gratefully received, I am not Tech minded, just picking up stuff as I go along.

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[MisterB]

Your charger supports standard LA & Gel batteries make sure it is set to Gel the voltage will be too high for Lithium on LA.

Apuljack will mod it for Lithium for £125.

Nord NE237 Fuseboard & Integrated Charging Unit | Apuljack Electronics

The NE237 is a 12V power distribution unit with built in charger. It provides fusing, charging (both leisure and vehicle batteries), split charge, fridge contr

www.apuljackelectronics.co.uk

Are you sure it needs to be set to gel and not lead acid? I do like the idea of the upgrade by Apuljack though.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have 2 x 150 A NDS Lithium batteries installed, I in advertantantly ran them low enough for shut down, 10.5 , Hooked up to Home HU, overnight, Next morning Energy monitor showing 25% , left on HU, next morning, Energy Monitor showing slight increase, I looked at the Votronic Main charger, installed in the Van, that showed, Batteries Full ?
I am in the middle of upgrading my PVC, & not had chance to test anything in Anger.
The temperature is low so I suspect that the overnight charge may be interrupted. I have Temperature Sensors on the system. Any thoughts would be gratefully received, I am not Tech minded, just picking up stuff as I go along.

Sounds like charging stopped due to Temp. Put the heating on in the van tomorrow then put them back on change and monitor it.

 

[Lenny HB]

Are you sure it needs to be set to gel and not lead acid? I do like the idea of the upgrade by Apuljack though.

Gel will charge at 14.4v, LA at 14.7 which is too high.

 

[Gents]

Thanks Lenny, Will try that.

 

[Marie-Claire]

Just an update, new lithiums are now at 13.55v and seem fully charged , im now moving onto the inverter i stall and asking you knowledgeable ppl what size fuse is req for a 2k output model?

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[Lenny HB]

Your charger supports standard LA & Gel batteries make sure it is set to Gel the voltage will be too high for Lithium on LA.

Apuljack will mod it for Lithium for £125.

Nord NE237 Fuseboard & Integrated Charging Unit | Apuljack Electronics

The NE237 is a 12V power distribution unit with built in charger. It provides fusing, charging (both leisure and vehicle batteries), split charge, fridge contr

www.apuljackelectronics.co.uk

Are you sure it needs to be set to gel and not lead acid? I do like the idea of the upgrade by Apuljack though.

Edit:
Brain not in gear yesterday, I was thinking of AGM which charge at 14.7. Gel & sealed LA normally charge at the same voltage so either should be Ok for Lithium but SLA would be better due to the shorter absorption time.

 

[MisterB]

Edit:
Brain not in gear yesterday, I was thinking of AGM which charge at 14.7. Gel & sealed LA normally charge at the same voltage so either should be Ok for Lithium but SLA would be better due to the shorter absorption time.

thanks for clarifying - i have my NE237 set on Lead Acid for my lithium battery, though i still like the idea of the Apuljack converion. Do you know what they actually do ??

 

[Lenny HB]

Just an update, new lithiums are now at 13.55v and seem fully charged , im now moving onto the inverter i stall and asking you knowledgeable ppl what size fuse is req for a 2k output model?

The fuse is there to protect the cable so as long as the fuse is lower than the cable rating it is safe. I would fit a 200 amp fuse, Victron for their 2000va (1600 W) inverter recomend a 300 amp fuse (recommended cable is 70 mm sq). I think the rate the fuse so high to allow for peak demands.

 

[MisterB]

Just an update, new lithiums are now at 13.55v and seem fully charged , im now moving onto the inverter i stall and asking you knowledgeable ppl what size fuse is req for a 2k output model?

we have a 200amp in line fuse fitted, we originally had a resettable fuse but read too many strong recommendations against them.

i have been through virtually the same process as you with my Adria, new lithium battery, new solar panel(s) as there were none originally fitted, 2kw (4kw peak pure sine wave) inverter so we could use the microwave off grid and we had our microwave 'downrated'.

its been a long process, mainly because i have other 'stuff' to do, but the help on this forum has been brilliant.

i have recently installed a remote switch, utilising a 12v relay to turn the inverter off when not in use - just need to find a suitable location to mount the switch and yesterday fitted a battery isolator - i previously had 'snap on' type connections, so i could disconnect easy enough, but was advised to remove them and go for a much more secure threaded bolt connection. i installed the cut off switch behind the drivers seat so its easy to get to.

 

[Lenny HB]

thanks for clarifying - i have my NE237 set on Lead Acid for my lithium battery, though i still like the idea of the Apuljack converion. Do you know what they actually do ??

At a guess propably reset the output voltage from 14.4 to 14.6v so the Lithium gets a full charge, they may disable the absorption time. .
Give them a ring & ask as if changing the voltage is all they do it's not worth bothering with as 14.4v is about 98% charged.

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[MisterB]

At a guess propably reset the output voltate from 14.4 to 14.6v so the Lithium gets a full charge, they may disable the absorption time. .
Give them a ring & ask as if changing the voltage is all they do it's not worth bothering with as 14.4v is about 98% charged.

Thanks for your help/knowledge (as always!)

 

[Raul]

There are many ways to skin a cat. Lifepo4 can achieve full charge from 3,45 to 3,65vpc in 12v is 13,8v and 14,6v. If you choose the fast way is 14,6v with a charging rate above 0,2C and terminate charge when CV hits 14,6v and tail current hits 0,05C. If you can’t meet this criteria, you must choose a lower CV termination, but still charge in reasonable fast time. Like 14,2v for example with 1hr absorb. Some even fully charge at 13.8v but have the time, capacity, and the equipment to implement a friendly charge without compromising on capacity. The larger the capacity you have, the better as you can afford 1-2hrs absorb and lower the top CV, which is very beneficial in low and high temperatures.

Setting a one of high CV termination voltage, all you do is remove charger control and shift it to the bms. One day that bms may get tired, and may not respond to the set limits, it has happened. You should rely on bms, but not for everyday use control.
My opinion anyways.

 

[Gents]

Thanks Lenny, that worked a treat. resumed charging once temp came up in the van

 

[highwood122]

The fuse is there to protect the cable so as long as the fuse is lower than the cable rating it is safe. I would fit a 200 amp fuse, Victron for their 2000va (1600 W) inverter recomend a 300 amp fuse (recommended cable is 70 mm sq). I think the rate the fuse so high to allow for peak demands.

realy 70mm. sq

 

[VXman]

Any thoughts on the wisdom, advice to only charge to 80% (particularly when the batteries are not being used for a while) to help longevity of the battery?

I got told to do this for my electric bike by the dealer I bought it from. Also, laptops sometimes have the option to limit charhing to 80%.

Also, apparently not going below 20% is good. The down side of all this is you only have 60% of capacity available which is nearly as bad as lead acid batteries!

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[Ava the Adria]

Any thoughts on the wisdom, advice to only charge to 80% (particularly when the batteries are not being used for a while) to help longevity of the battery?

I got told to do this for my electric bike by the dealer I bought it from. Also, laptops sometimes have the option to limit charhing to 80%.

Also, apparently not going below 20% is good. The down side of all this is you only have 60% of capacity available which is nearly as bad as lead acid batteries!

Yes, only charge to 80% if you’re not going to use the energy is the advice re electric vehicles too; the last 20% takes the longest to squeeze in and (allegedly) can cause some kind of chemical degradation internally if left at 100% - only a problem if left full over the long term.

 

[Lenny HB]

realy 70mm. sq

Yep if you want to keep volt drop to a minimum. depending on max current you are likely to take you could go down to 35 mm sq if cable run is less than a metre but 50 mm sq would be better.

 

[Ava the Adria]

Hi all hoping someone can reassure me?. So i have fitted 2 x 100ah lithium to my adria fitted with a ne237 charging system . Out of the box the batteries were both showing 13.04v now wired in parallel and still showing 13.04 and all electrics working fine. I have connected to ehu at home and the panel is showing a draw of 15.8a. Is this normal until the batteries are charged and will reduce over time and is it safe to leave it like this overnight on ehu?, thoughts please

We recently sorted our Adria’s 2x100Ah Relion RB LiFePo4’s with NE237 following some great advice on this forum. Summary below of our issues and how we sorted them. (We don’t have a smart alternator and do have a “proper” D+).

The NE237 (on our 2017 Matrix) outputs about 18 Amps from the mains charger and the charging voltage was ok but slightly below what the LiFePo4’s needed for 100% full charge. It seemed to sit on hook up happily but we also noticed a lot of “hum” from the NE237, which was a little disconcerting!
We also had a very basic B2B (Renogy 40A) without any volt sensing, wired through the NE237 to charge the hab batts on the road, because the batteries would take more than the 70A the Ne237 internal relay could handle. Even so, we think the 40A was still too much for the NE237 to handle as we then had issues with the side marker lamps intermittently not working -(these are controlled by a relay within the NE237) - perhaps due to internal overheating? The other problem with this particular B2B is it took power from the starter battery no matter what the state of that battery was as it has no voltage sensing. We did lose one starter battery and had many low voltage warnings from the vehicle tracker, which we attributed to the B2B hammering the starter battery, especially in cold weather and before the alternator “spun up” to full power whilst glow plugs etc were on.

We seem to have resolved all these NE237 issues by;
1) disconnecting the mains “kettle” lead from the NE237 and putting it into an adapter to plug a Victron VP22 smart charger in (could’ve gone for 30A, but when you’re on hookup, it tends to be for a while). This is wired directly to the battery + terminal and earths through the smart shunt. We were going to wire it into the NE237’s second 12v input, but couldn’t find a matching connector, so wired it direct to the battery. The adapter plug is a kettle lead to 3 pin plug from amazon. This makes the NE237 mains charger redundant as it no longer has any mains feed. The mains feed now powers the Victron mains charger, which fits neatly on the van wall in the battery cupboard.

2) We replaced the B2B with a Votronic VCC 1212-30 30A. This is voltage sensitive and smart in that if the starter battery is in need of charge, whilst the engine is taking all the amps before the alternator is up to power, it reduces the charge to the hab batteries. Once the engine is warmed up and the starter battery is “happy”, it then powers the hab batteries fully. This B2B is wired into the NE237’s B1 terminal. It is quite small and fits neatly on the van side wall in the battery cupboard, next to the Victron. See attached diagrams.

Although we only have a 30A B2B, its “smart” and both this and the Victron mains charger have proper charging profiles suitable for our Relion RB LiFePo4’s. There seems to be so much less stress on the NE237 as we’re only putting 30A max through the 70A relay and we’ve retained functionality through the over fridge control panel. Also, no more issues with starter battery low warnings or side marker light issues. For example, the B2B was only drawing 8 amps last Tuesday morning when we started up and first left Tolkamer (NE) in the zero degrees temperature, but once the engine had warmed up it was putting the full 30A in!

Writing this in Germany having driven across two weeks ago, so far, so good. The batteries were charged by the Votronic on the drive from home for an off grid overnight at Bray Dunes (FR), then after two days on hook up in Bruges (BE) they were fully refilled. They only dropped down to 50% of capacity after 4 nights in Tolkamer (NE) and Xanten (DE). During the drive across to Paderborn (DE), the Votronic refilled them to 95% and after 4 nights here they are back down to 50%. This is a huge improvement on using the old NE237 mains charger on lead acid charging profiles and the brutal but dumb B2B; it has been well worth the expense of purchasing the correct chargers to properly fill up and max out the extra capacity of LiFePo4’s.

With thanks again to all the advice we received from this forum.

 

[bigtwin]

Yes, only charge to 80% if you’re not going to use the energy is the advice re electric vehicles too; the last 20% takes the longest to squeeze in and (allegedly) can cause some kind of chemical degradation internally if left at 100% - only a problem if left full over the long term.

With LiFePo4 batteries, the last 20% goes in as fast as any of the other 20%s that precede it. It is only on lead acid batteries that the last 20% takes an eternity.

If you (not necessarily Ava the Adria ) are actively using the batteries then charge to 100% and utilise as much of the available capacity as you desire.

If you are not going to be actively using the batteries then it’s good advice to store them below 80%.

Ian

 

[MisterB]

We seem to have resolved all these NE237 issues by;
1) disconnecting the mains “kettle” lead from the NE237 and putting it into an adapter to plug a Victron VP22 smart charger in (could’ve gone for 30A, but when you’re on hookup, it tends to be for a while). This is wired directly to the battery + terminal and earths through the smart shunt. We were going to wire it into the NE237’s second 12v input, but couldn’t find a matching connector, so wired it direct to the battery. The adapter plug is a kettle lead to 3 pin plug from amazon. This makes the NE237 mains charger redundant as it no longer has any mains feed. The mains feed now powers the Victron mains charger, which fits neatly on the van wall in the battery cupboard.

i like the solution re mains charging, is it a Victron VP22 or an IP22?

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