LiFePo4 Upgrade - without B2B?

[Gaston aires]

I have just replaced the lead acid hab batteries to a Fogstar drift under seat 230 ah lithium. All I did was change the mppt solar regulator to its lifePO setting and the Shaudt setting to gel, it didn’t have lifePO, but Fogstar said it should work well. Just spent 11 days off grid using kettle, toaster, etc through an inverter and it’s been brilliant keeping up to almost full charge. We moved twice during the period. Our solar is 2 x 120 watts.
No B2B was fitted and we don’t have a smart alternator.
Photo shows today’s Fogstar app.
Phil upmebattery

 

[Hoovie]

I do wonder sometimes when - and it is quite commonplace on this and other forums - about people changing to Lithium Batteries and proclaiming how their batteries never go below 90% SOC or whatever.
If they are using that little power, was there actually any point in the expense of switching to Lithium. If they are drawing 20Ah off a Lithium Battery say, they will be drawing the same power off a Lead Battery and a 100Ah Lead Battery would be perfectly adequate.
The main advantages of Lithium seem to be lost in that kind of usage... The ability to Deep Discharge is never used; The improved Charge speed is of dubious benefit for that user. All they really gain is an increase in Payload (Ah vs Ah) and likely the ability to see the state of charge of the Battery that they never had before (and if they DID via something like a Victron Smartshunt, they may have realised their Lead Acid battery was perfectly fine).

I am not anti-Lithium in any way (I have a pair of 100Ah LiFePO4's in my own Motorhome), but I do think sometimes people get carried away with all the hype.

 

[Billy192]

do wonder sometimes when - and it is quite commonplace on this and other forums - about people changing to Lithium Batteries and proclaiming how their batteries never go below 90% SOC or whatever.

If they are using that little power, was there actually any point in the expense of switching to Lithium. If they are drawing 20Ah off a Lithium Battery say, they will be drawing the same power off a Lead Battery and a 100Ah Lead Battery would be perfectly adequate.
The main advantages of Lithium seem to be lost in that kind of usage... The ability to Deep Discharge is never used; The improved Charge speed is of dubious benefit for that user. All they really gain is an increase in Payload (Ah vs Ah) and likely the ability to see the state of charge of the Battery that they never had before (and if they DID via something like a Victron Smartshunt, they may have realised their Lead Acid battery was perfectly fine).

I am not anti-Lithium in any way (I have a pair of 100Ah LiFePO4's in my own Motorhome), but I do think sometimes people get carried away with all the hype.

i have run my lithium while wild camping down to 45% using it for heating water for showers. its just by noon its full-ish. I also like the fast discharge and charge i like. i suppose its just personal preference.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

I do wonder sometimes when - and it is quite commonplace on this and other forums - about people changing to Lithium Batteries and proclaiming how their batteries never go below 90% SOC or whatever.
If they are using that little power, was there actually any point in the expense of switching to Lithium. If they are drawing 20Ah off a Lithium Battery say, they will be drawing the same power off a Lead Battery and a 100Ah Lead Battery would be perfectly adequate.
The main advantages of Lithium seem to be lost in that kind of usage... The ability to Deep Discharge is never used; The improved Charge speed is of dubious benefit for that user. All they really gain is an increase in Payload (Ah vs Ah) and likely the ability to see the state of charge of the Battery that they never had before (and if they DID via something like a Victron Smartshunt, they may have realised their Lead Acid battery was perfectly fine).

I am not anti-Lithium in any way (I have a pair of 100Ah LiFePO4's in my own Motorhome), but I do think sometimes people get carried away with all the hype.

You need to understand that voltage on a Lithium is NO indicator of available stored or used power. This is because Lithium discharges with an almost stable voltage until it gets down to say 20%. A lead acid on the other hand voltage drops from the get go and rapidly drops at an increasing rate to an unusable or battery knackering level. A lead acid at twice the weight gives about half the juice of a Lithium which is around half the weight. There are good reasons why a decent Lithium with BMS inbuilt is the smart and popular choice. That thats' not including a minimum expected 10 years life whilst still being 80% as good as new. 15 years is not unusual and the cost per Amp/hour is much less than a heavy Lead Acid battery.

 

[tkk]

another reason for LiFePO is if like me you use electrical appliances with high current demand like Nespresso machines, microwave etc 100a or so, As I understand it Li batteries tolerate a higher Amp draw in relation to their capacity than Gel etc so 200Ah Li will cope with above current draw rather than a much heavier 400Ah Gel. So it may still make sense even if you use a relatively small Ah amount.

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[bigtwin]

You need to understand that voltage on a Lithium is NO indicator of available stored or used power.

I think that you might be trying to teach your granny to suck eggs.

Ian

 

[Hoovie]

i have run my lithium while wild camping down to 45% using it for heating water for showers. its just by noon its full-ish. I also like the fast discharge and charge i like. i suppose its just personal preference.

You are a perfect candiate for a Lithium Installation

 

[Hoovie]

another reason for LiFePO is if like me you use electrical appliances with high current demand like Nespresso machines, microwave etc 100a or so, As I understand it Li batteries tolerate a higher Amp draw in relation to their capacity than Gel etc so 200Ah Li will cope with above current draw rather than a much heavier 400Ah Gel. So it may still make sense even if you use a relatively small Ah amount.

You are right. the voltage sag on Lithium is notably less than on Lead.
(of course it doesn't mean you can't have high demand on a Lead based system. I used to regularly pull >200A on my LPG-free - AND Lithium-Free - Camper conversion when cooking or heating the water.)

 

[cyberyacht]

My setup often draws up to 80A. Lithiums cope with that sort of demand far better than any LA technology.

 

[Gerry77]

Having read this thread can I jump on and say this is where I am at the moment. Just buying a Hobby Optima T65 On Fiat chassis 2018 reg. Specd at moment with 100w solar panel, pwm controller and a Schaudt WA121525 (Called a booster) but I believe it is a B2B. Existing hab battery is a agm 95ah.
Im considering changing solar controller to a Votronic duodig 350 (MPPT), adding a 100w solar panel and changing battery to 100ah lithium. Do I need to do any else besides change settings to suit lithium battery ?
TIA

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[Speve]

Having read this thread can I jump on and say this is where I am at the moment. Just buying a Hobby Optima T65 On Fiat chassis 2018 reg. Specd at moment with 100w solar panel, pwm controller and a Schaudt WA121525 (Called a booster) but I believe it is a B2B. Existing hab battery is a agm 95ah.
Im considering changing solar controller to a Votronic duodig 350 (MPPT), adding a 100w solar panel and changing battery to 100ah lithium. Do I need to do any else besides change settings to suit lithium battery ?
TIA

If you read the Fogstar drift information it can be a straight drop in replacement with changing charger settings on EBL to gel and solar regulator to lithium

 

[Kannon Fodda]

I do wonder sometimes when - and it is quite commonplace on this and other forums - about people changing to Lithium Batteries and proclaiming how their batteries never go below 90% SOC or whatever.
If they are using that little power, was there actually any point in the expense of switching to Lithium. If they are drawing 20Ah off a Lithium Battery say, they will be drawing the same power off a Lead Battery and a 100Ah Lead Battery would be perfectly adequate.
The main advantages of Lithium seem to be lost in that kind of usage... The ability to Deep Discharge is never used; The improved Charge speed is of dubious benefit for that user. All they really gain is an increase in Payload (Ah vs Ah) and likely the ability to see the state of charge of the Battery that they never had before (and if they DID via something like a Victron Smartshunt, they may have realised their Lead Acid battery was perfectly fine).

I revert here to the OPs requirements. He has a PVC with existing pants capacity battery and associated inadequate charging system. My van was similar. The level of discharge or even current draw isn't the only criteria for desiring lithium. For weight and similar size casing I tripled my capacity and also improved other storage space as the lithium didn't need the added housing box necessary against spillage of lead acid.

But I do also use the storage, sometimes to refill an ebike or as at moment with cloudy weather the battery runs down a fair chunk when parked on rally fields for a couple of days.

 

[Hoovie]

If you read the Fogstar drift information it can be a straight drop in replacement with changing charger settings on EBL to gel and solar regulator to lithium

just an FYI .... the WA121525 Booster essentially replaces the EBL for the "split-charge" charging as it is indeed a B2B, and it also has a Lithium switch setting (A slightly odd on in that it just keeps the voltage at a constant 14.1V (I think it is 14.1V?) and never cuts it. I wouldn't like that in a mains charger, but on a B2B which will not be on for massively extended periods, it is ok.

PS. the WA Boosters are nice units. Run at their full power for long durations with a very clean output and don't generate any significant heat.

 

[Dusty_Rhoades]

Copied from the Schaudt Operating Instructions Booster WA 121545.

Battery types 4 curves can be set from buttons:
Lead-acid battery: 14.4V / 13.4V
Lead-gel battery: 14.4V / 13.8V
AGM battery: 14.7V / 13.7V
Lithium battery: 14.4V constant

Hope this helps.

 

[Speve]

the WA121525 Booster essentially replaces the EBL for the "split-charge" charging as it is indeed a B2B, and it also has a Lithium switch setting (A slightly odd on in that it just keeps the voltage

Quite expensive for a battery to battery

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[Gerry77]

Amazingly fitted as standard on the Hobby T65!

Quite expensive for a battery to battery

 

[nigelivy]

Having read this thread can I jump on and say this is where I am at the moment. Just buying a Hobby Optima T65 On Fiat chassis 2018 reg. Specd at moment with 100w solar panel, pwm controller and a Schaudt WA121525 (Called a booster) but I believe it is a B2B. Existing hab battery is a agm 95ah.
Im considering changing solar controller to a Votronic duodig 350 (MPPT), adding a 100w solar panel and changing battery to 100ah lithium. Do I need to do any else besides change settings to suit lithium battery ?
TIA

That would be a great setup that would work well with lithium.

Unless you are set on the Votronic MPPT, you might consider a Victron MPPT and Van Bitz Battery Master combination instead. The combination (spec'ed for your panels) would not cost more than the Votronic and you'd have Bluetooth on the Victron MPPT.

 

[jezport]

Wouldn't it put a strain on the alternator with no B2B ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Wouldn't it put a strain on the alternator with no B2B ?

Depending on the wiring, yes.
IMO "drop in replacement" is salesman BS, if you want the best out of your batteries charge them properly.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

That would be a great setup that would work well with lithium.

Unless you are set on the Votronic MPPT, you might consider a Victron MPPT and Van Bitz Battery Master combination instead. The combination (spec'ed for your panels) would not cost more than the Votronic and you'd have Bluetooth on the Victron MPPT.

I have this exact setup regarding the Victron and the Battery Master but I do have the Shaudt booster (B2B) and it's been faultless. I find the Victron MPPT exceptional and the Bluetooth on that and a Victron Smartshunt give me all the info and peace of mind I require.

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[Gerry77]

Wouldn't it put a strain on the alternator with no B2B ?

But I thought the Schaudt WA121525 was a B2B ?

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

But I thought the Schaudt WA121525 was a B2B ?

My system is a Schaudt Elektroblok and Shaudt separate B2B. The beauty of the B2B is that I get maximum use of Solar and minimalist waste of diesel driving a heavier output alternator. An alternator, if putting out high current, can use as much diesel as driving up hill and increasing diesel pollutants by default. I prefer to maximise solar whenever I can and lengthen the life of my Lithium and this system does both.
This setup may not suit someone with a heavy inverter use but for us who cook on gas and generally prefer to stay on sites it's more than adequate.

 

[nigelivy]

I have this exact setup regarding the Victron and the Battery Master but I do have the Shaudt booster (B2B) and it's been faultless. I find the Victron MPPT exceptional and the Bluetooth on that and a Victron Smartshunt give me all the info and peace of mind I require.

I've had similar experiences with the Shaudt boosters (various models). They are great pieces of kit that work well and often have impressive outputs with little heat build up, etc..

 

[jezport]

But I thought the Schaudt WA121525 was a B2B ?

Not many vans have this as standard. The Fogstar is meant to be a drop in replacement for lead acid

 

[Hoovie]

Not many vans have this as standard. The Fogstar is meant to be a drop in replacement for lead acid

no such thing as a "drop in". As has been said, marketing BS.

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[Speve]

no such thing as a "drop in". As has been said, marketing BS.

Might help if you read this then?

Lithium Leisure Batteries for Campervans

When researching the market, we noticed it’s not just price that’s been a barrier for campervan owners looking to upgrade to Lithium, but people also think it’s outrageously complex too. If you're thinking your van needs an entire electrical systems upgrade - hold that thought, and read this...

www.fogstar-drift.co.uk

 

[Hoovie]

Might help if you read this then?

Lithium Leisure Batteries for Campervans

When researching the market, we noticed it’s not just price that’s been a barrier for campervan owners looking to upgrade to Lithium, but people also think it’s outrageously complex too. If you're thinking your van needs an entire electrical systems upgrade - hold that thought, and read this...

www.fogstar-drift.co.uk

Ah, an article by a seller of a product with a vested interest

Want to buy a bridge?

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Might help if you read this then?

Lithium Leisure Batteries for Campervans

When researching the market, we noticed it’s not just price that’s been a barrier for campervan owners looking to upgrade to Lithium, but people also think it’s outrageously complex too. If you're thinking your van needs an entire electrical systems upgrade - hold that thought, and read this...

www.fogstar-drift.co.uk

Have you read the third paragraph?

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

I cannot understand why, if there's a proper way to do something so many people want to find a cheaper way to almost do it.
I wouldn't just "drop in" anything just because someone with a vested interest says I can. It may be that those who do such things are fully aware of all of the pitfalls but in that case why not just do it properly?

 

[jezport]

no such thing as a "drop in". As has been said, marketing BS.

Others have said if you don't have a smart alternator you can drop a fogstar straight in. How many people have done that.
I've an electroblok 119, and an MPPT solar regulator with lithium profile.
With the fogstar BMS

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