Leisure Batteries

PhilandMena said:
the inverter will also consume current whilst charging as will the charger itself and at some point the inverter and charger will not be receiving enough supply from the battery to continue to charge.
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The point of using a movable battery/inverter/charger combination to charge a fixed battery is that the fixed battery ends up completely fully charged. On a CTEK charger a green LED shows that the charging is complete and it's switched to trickle charge (maintenance) mode.

If the fixed battery is very low, the movable battery will run out of charge before the fixed battery is charged. You then have to take the movable battery back home to charge it up again, and come back to repeat the process.

If it's a real effort to travel to the storage place then maybe this method is not for you. I used it when I was working away, and I was allowed to use the company car park to store the MH. I could easily visit it any day, and transport a battery to and from my flat. Another time I used it was when the MH was parked in a common parking area over the road from my flat.

It's maybe not worth buying a spare battery, charger and inverter just to do this. But if you already have them, it's just a matter of connecting them together.
 
Rudski01 said:
Would this do the job then?
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If the panel is below about 30 watts, there is no way it will overcharge the battery even in full sun, so a controller is not actually necessary. It can just be connected direct to the battery. But it will only keep a charged battery charged up in storage. It won't replenish the charge extracted by daily usage. For that you need hundreds of watts, as others have rightly pointed out.

In storage it only needs a few tens of milliamps to make good the drain from alarm, tracker etc and compensate for self-discharge. These small solar panels will do the job.

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We have a solar panel for the leisure battery and an inverter (12v-240v) and a trickle charger. Maybe once a week I plug the inverter into the leisure battery and the trickle charger into the inverter then connected to the cab battery. 24 hours sees the cab battery in good order and the leisure battery doesn't seem to loose power as continually topped up by the solar panel. When on ehu every couple of days I plug the charger in to keep the cab battery on form. I should fork out and by one of Jims battery masters really, must make better sense to have these things in hand automatically than fiddle about ..... BUT .... I'm a Yorkshireman and timing is crucial to ease money out of the wallet.
 
Also just realised the bottom one is Chinese so not much chance of seeing before crimbo and its Chinese so don't have much confidence in the quality of the parts, but that's a different thread altogether.

Think I'm just going to remove batteries and look at installing Solar on the roof after Christmas, thanks everyone for the input to this thread you've really helped me make my mind up, now just got to decide on the best system for a roof install, anyone got experience of what is a good reliable permanent roof panel and kit that are about?
 
Rudski01 said:
So would would the bottom one actually charge as well as maintain when batteries topped up?
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I have a 100 watt folding panel from Photonicuniverse. I connect it to the engine battery, because this is the one feeding my Cat1 alarm. I also have a Sterling 2 amp battery maintainer between the engine and leisure batteries. The solar panel faces south and unlike a roof mounted one is angled to get the best light. The sysrem has been working well for the last couple of years keeping all batteries topped up. A smaller panel I had previously put up internally on the dash board did not keep up with demand.
 
autorouter said:
The point of using a movable battery/inverter/charger combination to charge a fixed battery is that the fixed battery ends up completely fully charged. On a CTEK charger a green LED shows that the charging is complete and it's switched to trickle charge (maintenance) mode.

If the fixed battery is very low, the movable battery will run out of charge before the fixed battery is charged. You then have to take the movable battery back home to charge it up again, and come back to repeat the process.

If it's a real effort to travel to the storage place then maybe this method is not for you. I used it when I was working away, and I was allowed to use the company car park to store the MH. I could easily visit it any day, and transport a battery to and from my flat. Another time I used it was when the MH was parked in a common parking area over the road from my flat.

It's maybe not worth buying a spare battery, charger and inverter just to do this. But if you already have them, it's just a matter of connecting them together.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this but I do not need any of this I was just questioning the sense of charging a battery this way, It's pointless. If one is going to bring out a fully charged battery to a storage location where there is a flat battery in a motorhome it's obvious to me a straight swap is the answer. Attaching to an inverter then a charger to charge the flat battery is madness.

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Rudski01 said:
and its Chinese so don't have much confidence in the quality of the parts, but that's a different thread altogether.
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I think you will be most disappointed to find that almost all 'quality manufacturers' now have their equipment made in the far east.
 
Yep I know, working in quality I fully understand the consequences of dodgy Chinese goods, very difficult to sift the good from bad, but if I can I will.

:xThumb:
 
PhilandMena said:
Attaching to an inverter then a charger to charge the flat battery is madness.
Click to expand...

On the face of it, it does sound a trifle hare-brained. Not the first time I've had comments like that.

I have four 100Ah batteries, plus a starter battery. To swap the starter battery I have to remove the alarm (thanks to a previous owner) and awkwardly lift a heavy battery at armslength. Then refit the alarm and re-enter the radio code. I can transport one battery strapped to the footwell of my scooter.

Visiting it once a month there was enough charge in one battery to top up the other three leisure batteries and the starter battery. As I said, it was easy for me to visit the storage place any day, this may not work for others. It's not ideal. Since it was outdoors and in the sun I changed to using small solar panels on the dash to keep the batteries charged. But indoors or under trees it's back to the inverter/charger madness.

I searched for a device like a Batterymaster or B2B that will charge a fixed battery from a movable battery without using an inverter, but can't find one. Suggestions gratefully accepted, as long as it fully charges the fixed battery from the partly charged movable battery.
 
You state that you have an i890 elegance, so that's a Burstner presumably? If so, being German suggests that it may have an Elektroblock fitted? If that's the case forget all idea of attaching a charger, that's what an Elektroblock is! If you want to use a separate charger, you'll need to disconnect/remove the batteries from the Elektroblock. I guess if you haven't got EHU available where it is stored, you're going to have to take the batteries home for charging anyway, or fit Solar and/or go for regular drives.

But you also say that these quite new batteries were kept topped up, by the previous owner, using EHU. Topping up on EHU on a regular basis is fine but, leaving them permanently on EHU may well have damaged them. You should not leave a MH connected to EHU, when not in regular use.

I'm no expert (so now everyone else can rubbish my opinions :xdoh:) but I have gained invaluable and imo infallible advice from here http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/ and I recommend reading every section on this site, it's pure gold. One or two people may disagree ........ but what do they know :xrofl:
 
You can use another charger with an Electroblock 29, I imagine others models are similar but no harm in checking. This is the advice I got from Schaudt:

the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.
Best Regards
Udo.

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Pausim said:
You can use another charger with an Electroblock 29, I imagine others models are similar but no harm in checking. This is the advice I got from Schaudt:

the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.
Best Regards
Udo.
Click to expand...

In other words "disconnect/remove the batteries from the Elektroblock"
 
WhiteCheyenneMan said:
In other words "disconnect/remove the batteries from the Elektroblock"
Click to expand...
What Udo was saying is that you can leave the battery connected to the Elektroblock, so that it continues to distribute the 12v as normal but that you can disconnect the charging circuit by simply removing the fuse.
 
WhiteCheyenneMan said:
But you also say that these quite new batteries were kept topped up, by the previous owner, using EHU. Topping up on EHU on a regular basis is fine but, leaving them permanently on EHU may well have damaged them. You should not leave a MH connected to EHU, when not in regular use.
I:xrofl:
Click to expand...
Where is your source tom support that statement please! I am fully aware that modern intelligent chargers can be left indefinitely connected and switched on without causing any damage to batteries. This is in writing in the user instructions for CTEK chargers and Sargent chargers to name two. I'm certain there are many others who will also have this in their user instructions.
 
autorouter said:
On the face of it, it does sound a trifle hare-brained. Not the first time I've had comments like that.

I have four 100Ah batteries, plus a starter battery. To swap the starter battery I have to remove the alarm (thanks to a previous owner) and awkwardly lift a heavy battery at armslength. Then refit the alarm and re-enter the radio code. I can transport one battery strapped to the footwell of my scooter.

Visiting it once a month there was enough charge in one battery to top up the other three leisure batteries and the starter battery. As I said, it was easy for me to visit the storage place any day, this may not work for others. It's not ideal. Since it was outdoors and in the sun I changed to using small solar panels on the dash to keep the batteries charged. But indoors or under trees it's back to the inverter/charger madness.

I searched for a device like a Batterymaster or B2B that will charge a fixed battery from a movable battery without using an inverter, but can't find one. Suggestions gratefully accepted, as long as it fully charges the fixed battery from the partly charged movable battery.
Click to expand...
Have you considered (as a means of getting sufficient power into a flat cab battery to start the engine) Connecting the pos terminal from one of your leisure batteries to the pos terminal of your cab battery. It may take 30 minutes or so to transfer sufficient power to start the engine but is an easy fix.
 
PhilandMena said:
Where is your source tom support that statement please! I am fully aware that modern intelligent chargers can be left indefinitely connected and switched on without causing any damage to batteries. This is in writing in the user instructions for CTEK chargers and Sargent chargers to name two. I'm certain there are many others who will also have this in their user instructions.
Click to expand...

Follow the link that I gave and at the top of the page select "EHU Full Time Yes or No". If I understand CTEK chargers correctly(?) they would be connected directly to the batteries and do control the level of charge to avoid cooking the batteries. That's different to EHU through the MH's normal charging system. Hope this helps?

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WhiteCheyenneMan said:
Follow the link that I gave and at the top of the page select "EHU Full Time Yes or No". If I understand CTEK chargers correctly(?) they would be connected directly to the batteries and do control the level of charge to avoid cooking the batteries. That's different to EHU through the MH's normal charging system. Hope this helps?
Click to expand...
OK understand where your coming from ! Whilst ' aandcaravanservice' may be reputable repair specialist, his/their knowledge is not greater than those professional bodies who design and manufacture intelligent chargers and many of theses have been installed in a wide variety of motorhomes for some time now. It is perfectly safe to leave a motorhome connected to a EHU and it's charger left alone to maintain batteries. If anyone is saying anything differently, they are simply wrong.
 
PhilandMena said:
OK understand where your coming from ! Whilst ' aandcaravanservice' may be reputable repair specialist, his/their knowledge is not greater than those professional bodies who design and manufacture intelligent chargers and many of theses have been installed in a wide variety of motorhomes for some time now. It is perfectly safe to leave a motorhome connected to a EHU and it's charger left alone to maintain batteries. If anyone is saying anything differently, they are simply wrong.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, you have your opinion and I respect that. I only use EHU at home now when I'm due to go away or, when the solar isn't producing enough (like now) to keep the batteries topped up.

Don't forget though that AandN repair all types of chargers and have years of research behind them. They're opinion does sometimes differ from manufacturers and it is based on their practical experience repairing the faults caused to those chargers that have been produced by those who design and manufacture them. So I suspect that there's more than a grain of truth in what they say.

In adding solar to my Hymer MH, I was persuaded by them not fit Hymer's choice, a Schaudt regulator, but rather to go for a Votronic because it would be kinder to the batteries. I also have two of their recommended Varta LFD90 batteries because, according to their research, they're the best and yet not the most expensive.

But it's all a personal choice isn't it? Wouldn't it be boring if we all held the same opinions! :xwink:
 
PhilandMena said:
Have you considered (as a means of getting sufficient power into a flat cab battery to start the engine) Connecting the pos terminal from one of your leisure batteries to the pos terminal of your cab battery.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a good solution to getting up and running with a flat cab battery.

But that's not the problem I wanted to solve. I wanted to have all the batteries charged to 100%, without access to EHU. As I see it, unless I run the engine on idle for an hour or so, or go for a drive on the road, the options are solar panels, petrol/diesel/gas generator, fuel cell, or wind turbine. Or an inverter/charger setup.

autorouter said:
To swap the starter battery I have to remove the alarm (thanks to a previous owner) and awkwardly lift a heavy battery at armslength. Then refit the alarm and re-enter the radio code.
Click to expand...

What I meant was, it's not always easy to remove a battery and take it away for charging. As another example, I've read enough on this forum to know there's many a MH with leisure batteries under the front seats that are a 2-man job to remove. If you can whip out two or three batteries and chuck them in the car boot to charge at home, then that's a great idea. But if not, the battery/inverter/charger combo does the job.
 
The way forward for you IMO is solar panels. Leisure battery life is determined by number of cycles at a given DOD (depth of discharge), usually at 50%. If you allow batteries to discharge below 50% the number of life cycles also reduces and this will reduce the life of the battery. If you keep doing it you will simply destroy the battery. Better to have some solar power maintaining them.
 
I discovered that the solar panel controller on our van was connected to the starter battery, while the output side if the controller was connected to the leisure batteries. It was pulling the started battery down as it was always turned on.

You might find the following website articles on battery and their care and maintenance interesting.

http://the-onion-bargee.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/assault-and-battery-1.html

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