Leaky gas tank?

Lenny HB said:
Blimey that's like having a bomb on your back.
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All our Breathing Apparatus (BA) cylinders were also pressurised to 200 bars, giving us approximately 30 x mins working time (pending how hard you worked, and your lung capacity), with a 10 x minute reserve for safe exit.

They often got warm at the valve neck, when re-charging them. You had to be careful with them. ;)
Periodically they were sent off for testing on a rotation basis.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 
Our breathing apparatus twin sets are 300bar.

Heavy things they are, full set weighs 25KG alone. Then you have to carry all your kit and a patient.

Cylinders are inspected at intervals and many fail as well.
 
funflair said:
lt all looks like a bit of a dogs dinner to me, the COP 32 seems to be a code of practice for gas installations in park homes as it keeps mentioning connected to external bottles and caravan sites for more than 4 weeks while connected to an external cylinder, and then right at the end it says to me that it is not applicable to vehicle tanks for non propulsion purposes and Liquid Gas UK code 11 applies, what is in that I am not sure yet as you have to pay for it,


FROM COP 32

Guidance is included on maintaining appliances and the installation pipework in a safe condition. It includes details of a standardised procedure and check report, which should be followed by a competent person to verify the safety of the gas installation. This includes checks on the appliances, gas tightness of the system, ventilation and flueing.

This includes leisure accommodation vehicles (LAVs) such as:
• Holiday caravans
• Touring caravans and trailer tents that are connected to an external LPG supply not incorporated in the original manufacturer’s design
• Touring caravans that are used for more than four weeks while connected to external cylinder supply
• Other vehicles with or without aftermarket conversion incorporating accommodation for habitation.

Code of Practice 32 does not cover the installation of tanks on vehicles for non-propulsion purposes. Where tanks are being installed in vehicles for non-propulsion purposes, the requirements for installing tanks and their fittings (including filling pipework and connector) are set out in Liquid Gas UK Code of Practice 11.
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Yes most Gas standards / regulations and codes of practice take some serious interpretation as you say a dogs dinner .
The important word here is installation, COP 32 quite specifically states that it covers maintenance requirements.
COP 11 is more specifically aimed at installation.
I sat in and contributed to the upcoming training course for NCC approved workshop members, which is purely for very basic maintenance and inspection purposes at the annual workshop habitation check.
The NCC has advised its members not to work on any LPG tanks .
I deal with this on a daily basis and dealing with both professional enquiries from dealers , fitters , converters etc, along with the public.
Unfortunately the new course has been misinterpreted by some who are now telling me they have been told they need it to install LPG tanks 🤬

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Basildog said:
Yes most Gas standards / regulations and codes of practice take some serious interpretation as you say a dogs dinner .
The important word here is installation, COP 32 quite specifically states that it covers maintenance requirements.
COP 11 is more specifically aimed at installation.
I sat in and contributed to the upcoming training course for NCC approved workshop members, which is purely for very basic maintenance and inspection purposes at the annual workshop habitation check.
The NCC has advised its members not to work on any LPG tanks .
I deal with this on a daily basis and dealing with both professional enquiries from dealers , fitters , converters etc, along with the public.
Unfortunately the new course has been misinterpreted by some who are now telling me they have been told they need it to install LPG tanks 🤬
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So COP 32, COP 11 and any other COP are simply Codes Of Practice for your industry and not regulations that are to be followed by the general public, unlike for example a vehicle that must have a valid MOT annually after three years. I understand there is confusion within the NCC and they obviously don't know what to do about fixed tanks so the easy course of action is to recommend that their members do not work on these and simply replace, but is there ant specific regulation that says we the general public can not continue to use the tanks past 10 years, if there is I can't find it.

I think that you are saying that COP 32 cover the installation from but not including the tank as it is looking at free standing tanks which are subject to the owners (eg Calor) own internal testing regimes COP 11 might be an interesting read but possibly not £90 worth ;)
 
funflair said:
So COP 32, COP 11 and any other COP are simply Codes Of Practice for your industry and not regulations that are to be followed by the general public, unlike for example a vehicle that must have a valid MOT annually after three years. I understand there is confusion within the NCC and they obviously don't know what to do about fixed tanks so the easy course of action is to recommend that their members do not work on these and simply replace, but is there ant specific regulation that says we the general public can not continue to use the tanks past 10 years, if there is I can't find it.

I think that you are saying that COP 32 cover the installation from but not including the tank as it is looking at free standing tanks which are subject to the owners (eg Calor) own internal testing regimes COP 11 might be an interesting read but possibly not £90 worth ;)
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I would like to think that most responsible owners would actually want to follow industry guidelines and recommendations, the NCC definitely doesn’t recommend their members replacing tanks , when they say do not work on them they mean don’t touch it in any way .
I am relatively new to the Leisure Industry and quickly realised it’s a complete joke , half the so called experts have no qualifications at all , many have relied on the 3 B’s principle.
As I mentioned before we as a pump operator shouldn’t fill any tanks / cylinders that are not in current certification so it now seems that with more and more owners determined to do as they please we need to be much more aggressive in insisting that we check every tank/ cylinder before filling.
For some reason Motorhome, Caravan and boat owners believe they are completely untouchable when it comes to ensuring not only their own safety but also their families and those around them .
This article while not a gas tank illustrates perfectly to me that everyone is ultimately responsible for others , this was a privately owned boat , the owner was prosecuted for his negligence just like any other owner who chooses to ignore their responsibility to others could be prosecuted .
We have a great reputation in the industry and I am pretty ruthless about dealing with idiots who know better these days, we often refuse to sell products to people who are obviously lying about their intended use.
There was one well known company recently selling refillable LPG cylinders along with cabinet heaters for indoor use ( Propane is not permitted to be stored or used indoors) and these guys give advice to Motorhome owners ⚠️
 
Basildog said:
We actually do tend to explain to people that they can realistically expect to replace their tanks / cylinders in 10 years .
Do car dealers explain that a new car has a limited life expectancy, your household central heating boiler isn’t going to last 20 to 40 years like they used to , I personally wouldn’t repair one at 8 years old now .
Unless you buy a Miele domestic appliance they are all pretty much junk at 5 years today .
I doubt if Fiat actually expects a Ducato van to be still in service at 10 years.
Regulators , hoses and valves all need replacement at 10 years too according to manufacturer recommendations and the relevant standards.
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Basildog said:
I would like to think that most responsible owners would actually want to follow industry guidelines and recommendations, the NCC definitely doesn’t recommend their members replacing tanks , when they say do not work on them they mean don’t touch it in any way .
I am relatively new to the Leisure Industry and quickly realised it’s a complete joke , half the so called experts have no qualifications at all , many have relied on the 3 B’s principle.
As I mentioned before we as a pump operator shouldn’t fill any tanks / cylinders that are not in current certification so it now seems that with more and more owners determined to do as they please we need to be much more aggressive in insisting that we check every tank/ cylinder before filling.
For some reason Motorhome, Caravan and boat owners believe they are completely untouchable when it comes to ensuring not only their own safety but also their families and those around them .
This article while not a gas tank illustrates perfectly to me that everyone is ultimately responsible for others , this was a privately owned boat , the owner was prosecuted for his negligence just like any other owner who chooses to ignore their responsibility to others could be prosecuted .
We have a great reputation in the industry and I am pretty ruthless about dealing with idiots who know better these days, we often refuse to sell products to people who are obviously lying about their intended use.
There was one well known company recently selling refillable LPG cylinders along with cabinet heaters for indoor use ( Propane is not permitted to be stored or used indoors) and these guys give advice to Motorhome owners ⚠️
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It doesn’t matter what sector/area you have, their will always be bad examples of fitting, batteries, solar panels, awnings etc etc

It does seem a waste if someone checks their tank yearly, is meticulous in looking after it, store the Motorhome inside throughout the year etc, to then replace what could be a perfectly good, safe system because some regulation says it MAY not be safe.
 
funflair said:
but is there ant specific regulation that says we the general public can not continue to use the tanks past 10 years, if there is I can't find it.
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In another thread on this subject Martin, I posted that a few years ago I couldn't find any regs relating to 10 x year replacement for domestic tanks with vapour feed off valves, but I did find UN regs relating to 10 x year replacement for tanks with liquid feed off valves, used for combustion engines.

Fortunately the 2 x Gaslow refillables you left for us have a 15 x year date stamp on them, and because they are out of harms way in the locker, they are looking as new as the day you fitted them.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 
John Russell said:
Can you clarify?
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That valve doesn’t look right to me so I sent the picture to our fitter as he has more experience with LPG tanks than me .
He has never seen anything like it in 40 years and we both believe it’s been modified in some way .
Hopefully we are wrong but I doubt it , whoever looked at your tank didn’t even remove it for inspection and certainly hasn’t changed the Valves
We get these types of enquiries every week and are often told we don’t know what we are talking about, everyone knows better unfortunately.
 
I am sorry, but the NCC setup is absolutely not fit for purpose, for pretty much everything. Expecting an NCC workshop to certify the safety of an LPG installation really is folly. One of those installed the gaslow system on my van. On inspection, after smelling gas, I found the brass fittings tightened way beyond the safe limit and as I started to undo one, it sheared the last half millimeter of brass. Looking at the 2 pieces, there was corrosion and the fitting was mis-shapen. I replaced the lot of course, and installed them safely

Another thing is that they had used white PTFE tape as well on some couplings, which is not safe with gas

When the forerunner of Gas Safe came out, I was in the building industry and we regularly did gas work. There was a rep at the local plumbers merchants signing people up for the new register. Pay the joining fee and prove the you carried out installations and you went on the register as the business and could use the logo. It has improved a bit, but seriously not as much as it should
 
Basildog said:
That valve doesn’t look right to me so I sent the picture to our fitter as he has more experience with LPG tanks than me .
He has never seen anything like it in 40 years and we both believe it’s been modified in some way .
Hopefully we are wrong but I doubt it , whoever looked at your tank didn’t even remove it for inspection and certainly hasn’t changed the Valves
We get these types of enquiries every week and are often told we don’t know what we are talking about, everyone knows better unfortunately.
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Do you mean the filler valve? Difficult to see much of that but a couple of elbows are attached.
 
Basildog said:
That valve doesn’t look right to me so I sent the picture to our fitter as he has more experience with LPG tanks than me .
He has never seen anything like it in 40 years and we both believe it’s been modified in some way .
Hopefully we are wrong but I doubt it , whoever looked at your tank didn’t even remove it for inspection and certainly hasn’t changed the Valves
We get these types of enquiries every week and are often told we don’t know what we are talking about, everyone knows better unfortunately.
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Do you mean the filler valve? On the RHS; difficult to see much of it but a couple of elbows are attached then the hose.

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TheBig1 said:
Pay the joining fee and prove the you carried out installations and you went on the register as the business and could use the logo. It has improved a bit, but seriously not as much as it should
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That was 40 years ago when it was voluntary, now to be registered with Gas Safe, every engineer has to pass exams every 5 years. I'm not claiming it's perfect but it's not unsafe. The leisure industry gas is nowhere near as safe
 
John Russell said:
Do you mean the filler valve? On the RHS; difficult to see much of it but a couple of elbows are attached then the hose.
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Having re read this thread from the beginning you were told originally that the tank would require at the least , removing and inspecting along with the valves replacing, we as a company would have told you the tank needed replacement.
That take off valve is definitely suspect
I can’t believe that at the very least they didn’t change the PRV
 
Basildog said:
That valve doesn’t look right to me so I sent the picture to our fitter as he has more experience with LPG tanks than me .
He has never seen anything like it in 40 years and we both believe it’s been modified in some way .
Hopefully we are wrong but I doubt it , whoever looked at your tank didn’t even remove it for inspection and certainly hasn’t changed the Valves
We get these types of enquiries every week and are often told we don’t know what we are talking about, everyone knows better unfortunately.
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The valve looks like a Pegler ball valve, according to their product page the yellow handle valves are suitable for combustible gas up to 10bar, of course we can all see that this one has a red handle so if a genuine Pegler the datasheet says it's not suitable.
 
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funflair said:
The valve looks like a Pegler ball valve, according to their product page the yellow handle valves are suitable for combustible gas up to 10bar, of course we can all see that this one has a red handle so if a genuine Pegler the datasheet says it's not suitable.
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We are referring to what’s screwed into the tank .
That’s why we are sure it’s not correct as all tanks have the valve like these. .
We think it’s been modified

image.jpg
 
Basildog said:
We are referring to what’s screwed into the tank .
That’s why we are sure it’s not correct as all tanks have the valve like these. .
We think it’s been modified

View attachment 729512
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Yes that's the Pegler (or a copy) ball valve (y) and as I said I don't think it is recommended for LPG.

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funflair said:
Yes that's the Pegler (or a copy) ball valve (y) and as I said I don't think it is recommended for LPG.
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No the brass fitting screwed into the tank is the part we think has been modified.
I would agree however that the lever ball valve is unlikely to be LPG approved also .
Whoever checked that tank has in my opinion already proved that they couldn’t care less either through lack of knowledge or a total disregard to what’s considered to be good practice.
 
John Russell said:
Since we're discussing risk, what do the numbers look like?
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Thats avery good point. How many people were killed or injured last year as a result of a gas tank or appartus failure dues to age?

The other point that occurs to me is that. If people were required to change their gas tanks every 10 years regardless of condition then why bother trying to protect it? Adoption of such a policy would possibly end with cheap solutions and tanks being sourced from places like china. This would hardly be a step forward.
 
jongood said:
Thats avery good point. How many people were killed or injured last year as a result of a gas tank or appartus failure dues to age?

The other point that occurs to me is that. If people were required to change their gas tanks every 10 years regardless of condition then why bother trying to protect it? Adoption of such a policy would possibly end with cheap solutions and tanks being sourced from places like china. This would hardly be a step forward.
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Yes I was thinking has the quality of tank deteriorated over the years, the thickness of the steel etc

It would be interesting to cut up your tank Jon and compare it with the tanks supplied today. You can bet your bottom dollar that the quality will have gone down, just like most other things.

I suppose if they’re not protected though they will only last 5 year😜
 
CazPaul said:
Yes I was thinking has the quality of tank deteriorated over the years, the thickness of the steel etc

It would be interesting to cut up your tank Jon and compare it with the tanks supplied today. You can bet your bottom dollar that the quality will have gone down, just like most other things.

I suppose if they’re not protected though they will only last 5 year😜
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I think Charlie has had some less than 5 years old that have corroded through but my memory is bad so will let him confirm or deny
 
I wonder if you can buy different quality tanks, are all the underslung tanks the same make/ thickness and quality?

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Being in the fortunate position, to have probably the most respected reputation in the U.K. for refillable LPG systems and leisure gas ,along with being Gas Safe Registered we keep up to date with our knowledge and understanding of our products.
Reading some of the replies on here has actually reinforced for me that we as a company are doing the right thing for our customers and staff.
It’s just amazing how many people are willing to ignore perfectly sensible recommendations.
We will carry on refusing to work on or fill installations that we aren’t comfortable with.
 
nabsim said:
I think Charlie has had some less than 5 years old that have corroded through but my memory is bad so will let him confirm or deny
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You’ve seen first hand some of the tanks ⚠️
Annual maintenance is recommended by all the industry standards and in our own users instructions, we also reinforce the importance of doing it , just as we tell everyone that the filler cap is a vital component in the system if they don’t want to shut down a forecourt ⚠️👍
 

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