KS energy battery - strange "sleep mode" after 8 weeks of no use

[peterc10]

I can understand turning the bluetooth off but killing the supply is another matter. In the middle of winter when the temperature drops below zero I am not there to turn lights on and off, I want the system to be live at all times. That is what I expect a battery to do. Fortunately there are other manufacturers.

The only worry in winter battery wise is charging below zero. But if it starts charging somehow the BMS wakes up and prevents the charging happening. And if, like me you have some stuff on like solar panels, alarm or control panel it will never go to hibernation anyway.

 

[Pausim]

The only worry in winter battery wise is charging below zero. But if it starts charging somehow the BMS wakes up and prevents the charging happening. And if, like me you have some stuff on like solar panels, alarm or control panel it will never go to hibernation anyway.

That is not how an Efoy fuel cell works. It needs to have power available to protect itself in cold weather and I don’t leave stuff running that is not needed when I am not there. Neither would I trust an item that has shut itself down to wake up promptly, I want something that is ready and waiting to do its job. The KS may suit others but it doesn’t suit me.

 

[Ranger]

It would be really good if KS came on here and explained it all as they are sponsors.

 

[Tombola]

I can understand turning the bluetooth off but killing the supply is another matter. In the middle of winter when the temperature drops below zero I am not there to turn lights on and off, I want the system to be live at all times. That is what I expect a battery to do. Fortunately there are other manufacturers.

Relion Batteries (insight) used to go into sleep mode I think it was after about 96hours, are you saying they have changed this now then Pausim or they do some that dont use the sleep mode.

I thought lots of lithiums uses sleep mode as std

 

[Pausim]

Relion Batteries (insight) used to go into sleep mode I think it was after about 96hours, are you saying they have changed this now then Pausim or they do some that dont use the sleep mode.

I thought lots of lithiums uses sleep mode as std

I don’t know much about Relion Insight but I thought they were 48V golf cart batteries so perhaps they are differently specified. My Relion RB100 does not have a sleep mode and I wouldn’t keep it if it did.

I know 1 or 2 LiFePO4 batteries have sleep modes but I think it is far from usual. I seem to recall Hoovie knew something about battery sleep modes. I think someone said in an earlier discussion that one of the major battery suppliers would not stock ones with sleep modes.

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[Gromett]

I have no issues with the sleep mode providing it is mentioned in the sales literature and manual.

I would however query the 100% charge but not in any serious way to be honest.

 

[The Artilleryman]

Would an Ablemail or Vanbitz batterymaster stop a KS energy LiFePO4 going into sleep mode ?

 

[Gromett]

Would an Ablemail or Vanbitz batterymaster stop a KS energy LiFePO4 going into sleep mode ?

I doubt it as the charge voltage has to be present for the vanbitz BM to work?

My suggestion is if it is an issue, drop by every two weeks and switch the solar panel on for a few minutes to reset the timer?

 

[RedFrame]

Just for information, Our two (AMPS) drop into hibernation after a set period of inactivity. Any activity (Draw or Charge) and they wake up immediately, so if another device was "hibernating" and suddenly woke up and requested power it would get it.

They wouldn't go into sleep mode if a device was drawing power constantly.

Cheers
Red.

 

[Tombola]

I know 1 or 2 LiFePO4 batteries have sleep modes but I think it is far from usual.

Yeah, id imagine so, I just assumed back in the day it was the "norm"

I would however query the 100% charge but not in any serious way to be honest.

Same....everywhere i see says 90%

Would an Ablemail or Vanbitz batterymaster stop a KS energy LiFePO4 going into sleep mode

Id imagine it would , as it is drawing slight power pretty constant , so preventing the sleep ?

I doubt it as the charge voltage has to be present for the vanbitz BM to work?

Id imagine it would , as it is drawing slight power pretty constant , so preventing the sleep ?

which brings me to another point, is 100% really that bad if you have even say a battery master, or even a usb plug with a light in it plugged in, after all that is using current albeit very slowly

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[Hoovie]

I don’t know much about Relion Insight but I thought they were 48V golf cart batteries so perhaps they are differently specified. My Relion RB100 does not have a sleep mode and I wouldn’t keep it if it did.

I know 1 or 2 LiFePO4 batteries have sleep modes but I think it is far from usual.

It is actually a typical mode set on most Lithiums.

I seem to recall Hoovie knew something about battery sleep modes. I think someone said in an earlier discussion that one of the major battery suppliers would not stock ones with sleep modes.

I have a friend with a KS Energy battery that goes to sleep when the load is low. And when I say "low", I mean he is still using power (some lights on) but not enough for the battery to stay awake.
He now leaves the inverter switched on standby to deliberately waste power by having a load large enough for the battery to stay awake. Previously (before I fitted the inverter), he would end up turning on all the lights to create enough load.
Rediculous situation where you have to waste battery power in order to be able to continue using the battery.

Alpha Batteries have the sleep mode disabled in the BMS settings for the batteries they stock. It is not a feature that in a Recreation product such as a Motorhome or Boat that you want really.

 

[Hoovie]

I doubt it as the charge voltage has to be present for the vanbitz BM to work?

Not on a battery master with Lithium it doesn't. (That is why the BM is not really suitable for Lithium (waiting for howls of complaints, but everyone has their own opinions. That is mine)

My suggestion is if it is an issue, drop by every two weeks and switch the solar panel on for a few minutes to reset the timer?

 

[Carpmart]

Had my KS’s for over two years now. I did have a battery sleep issue but relatively painless fix (although I did have to get them back to KS) with new firmware uploaded to the BMS.

WRT battery life, we did 240 night in MoHo last year and will do 300 plus this year and I am on 18 cycles and 19 cycles on the two batteries.

Not worth worrying about charge cycles, SOC, not charging to 100% etc… Trust me that my current lithiums will be redundant through me wanting newer battery technology in ten years, not because I’ve worn them out!

 

[Pebble99]

Had my KS’s for over two years now. I did have a battery sleep issue but relatively painless fix (although I did have to get them back to KS) with new firmware uploaded to the BMS.

WRT battery life, we did 240 night in MoHo last year and will do 300 plus this year and I am on 18 cycles and 19 cycles on the two batteries.

Not worth worrying about charge cycles, SOC, not charging to 100% etc… Trust me that my current lithiums will be redundant through me wanting newer battery technology in ten years, not because I’ve worn them out!

KS Energy are saying that my battery going into hibernation mode is normal and nothing to worry about. What was your sleep issue out of interest?

 

[Carpmart]

KS Energy are saying that my battery going into hibernation mode is normal and nothing to worry about. What was your sleep issue out of interest?

Not sure of the cause really. It showed a corrupt set of values in the app, Just odd really. See pics below.

Would have been painful a month later if it had happened whilst in Spain.

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[Gromett]

Not on a battery master with Lithium it doesn't. (That is why the BM is not really suitable for Lithium (waiting for howls of complaints, but everyone has their own opinions. That is mine)

As I understand it. The voltage has to both rise above a certain set point (charge voltage) and for there to be a minimum difference between the two batteries voltage before it is activated?
It is a long time since I touched one or looked into it? This is a question not a statement of fact.

As for Lithium. Why is it not suitable for Lithium? Is it due to the relatively stable voltage across the state of charge range being level and above that charge point?

eddievanbitz sorry to drag you in again?

 

[eddie]

Not on a battery master with Lithium it doesn't. (That is why the BM is not really suitable for Lithium (waiting for howls of complaints, but everyone has their own opinions. That is mine)

Van Bitz have been installing Lithium batteries for a nearly a decade in considerable quantities with virtually every installation in the first five years or so having a Battery Master installed and every installation since that period having one installed.

I retired last year, but i don’t remember Van Bitz customers queuing up to moan that since Van Bitz designed and installed system that their engine battery goes flat, or their Lithium battery drains inexorably or goes to sleep or, we’ll any problems at all.

Hoovie , why not the boys and girls that your a trader, that you sell the Ablemail system that you hold in such high esteem in your posts when discussing the Battery Master, which actually has been installed in over fifty thousand motorhomes since I designed it originally

Nothing wrong with being a trader on MHF but a bit of transparency would give a more balanced view to an opinion

 

[eddie]

As I understand it. The voltage has to both rise above a certain set point (charge voltage) and for there to be a minimum difference between the two batteries voltage before it is activated?
It is a long time since I touched one or looked into it? This is a question not a statement of fact.

As for Lithium. Why is it not suitable for Lithium? Is it due to the relatively stable voltage across the state of charge range being level and above that charge point?

eddievanbitz sorry to drag you in again?

Circa 0.75 VDC but you can’t charge a charge battery, so will only work when needed

Also with the quiescent parasitic drain on modern chassis giving the standing life cycle on average of about four weeks, most if not all engine batteries need supporting unless the motorhome is driven daily

Gromett

 

[Hoovie]

As I understand it. The voltage has to both rise above a certain set point (charge voltage) and for there to be a minimum difference between the two batteries voltage before it is activated?
It is a long time since I touched one or looked into it? This is a question not a statement of fact.

As for Lithium. Why is it not suitable for Lithium? Is it due to the relatively stable voltage across the state of charge range being level and above that charge point?

eddievanbitz sorry to drag you in again?

The general idea with a starter battery trickle charger is that when you are charging the leisure battery, you divert some of that charge to the starter battery (this is how the dual or duo solar chargers work, only they are active when getting a solar charge).
The problem with using a device that has a relatively small differential voltage is that when used with Lithium it ends up being active all the time, not just when there is a leisure battery charge happening. This is because the resting voltage of Lithium is so much greater than the resting voltage of a full lead battery.

You will see that most starter battery trickle chargers actually state specifically "no for lithium" for this very reason as they are meant to be only used when charging as I mentioned, but the set voltage differential way means they tend to be stuck on 24/7.
the manufacturers of these older devices tend to recognise and accept that. For example, the Voltronic device has this statement on the product info "Suitable for use with lead-acid batteries only (not for use with lithium technology) where both batteries have a nominal system voltage of 12V."
You might have a reason to keep a constant trickle, in which case running at 24/7 is ok, if that is what you want.

 

[Hoovie]

Van Bitz have been installing Lithium batteries for a nearly a decade in considerable quantities with virtually every installation in the first five years or so having a Battery Master installed and every installation since that period having one installed.

I retired last year, but i don’t remember Van Bitz customers queuing up to moan that since Van Bitz designed and installed system that their engine battery goes flat, or their Lithium battery drains inexorably or goes to sleep or, we’ll any problems at all.

Hoovie , why not the boys and girls that your a trader, that you sell the Ablemail system that you hold in such high esteem in your posts when discussing the Battery Master, which actually has been installed in over fifty thousand motorhomes since I designed it originally

Nothing wrong with being a trader on MHF but a bit of transparency would give a more balanced view to an opinion

I am not a trader on MHF and whilst I do hold the Ablemail AMT Battery Maintainer in high esteem, I don't sell it any longer as my shop is closed from the start of this FY (check it yourself) as I, like you, don't trade products any more.
I have no doubt the Battery Master was a great product of its time (the Ford Popular was a great car as well), but it was, I think you would agree, designed at a time when Lithium Batteries were not in motorhomes and from the published specs I dont think it works in the way it was originally intended to when paired with Lithium. i.e. "It is designed so that when the engine battery drops half a volt below the leisure battery, Battery Master automatically adjusts the charge and tops up the engine battery". a Lithium Battery tends to be at least half a volt more than a Lead Battery by virture of the technologies. When the you had a Lead Battery, that 'half a volt' difference wouls only ever occur when you had active Leisure Battery charging.
Doesn't mean it will necessarily cause a problem, but it doesn't mean it works as intended either.

Can you confirm and correct my understanding with the following yes/no answers and put this question to bed?
Does the Vanbitz Battery Master operate identically whether the Leisure Battery is a 12V Lead Acid Battery or a 12V Lithium Battery?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lead Acid Battery is fully charged (so around 12.7V) and not getting any charge?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lithium Battery is fully charged (so around 13.3V) and not getting any charge?

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[Gromett]

Is the BM active when a Leisure Lead Acid Battery is fully charged (so around 12.7V) and not getting any charge?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lithium Battery is fully charged (so around 13.3V) and not getting any charge?

Hoping I am not stepping on toes now. But seems Eddie answered this?

Circa 0.75 VDC

So 12.7 + 0.75 = 13.45 which is greater than 13.3V you ask about. So I don't believe it is active?

Only when the van battery falls to 12.55V does the battery master reach the 0.75V differential. And at that voltage the van battery probably needs a bit of a boost???

This is why I queried it

 

[funflair]

I am not a trader on MHF and whilst I do hold the Ablemail AMT Battery Maintainer in high esteem, I don't sell it any longer as my shop is closed from the start of this FY (check it yourself) as I, like you, don't trade products any more.
I have no doubt the Battery Master was a great product of its time (the Ford Popular was a great car as well), but it was, I think you would agree, designed at a time when Lithium Batteries were not in motorhomes and from the published specs I dont think it works in the way it was originally intended to when paired with Lithium. i.e. "It is designed so that when the engine battery drops half a volt below the leisure battery, Battery Master automatically adjusts the charge and tops up the engine battery". a Lithium Battery tends to be at least half a volt more than a Lead Battery by virture of the technologies. When the you had a Lead Battery, that 'half a volt' difference wouls only ever occur when you had active Leisure Battery charging.
Doesn't mean it will necessarily cause a problem, but it doesn't mean it works as intended either.

Can you confirm and correct my understanding with the following yes/no answers and put this question to bed?
Does the Vanbitz Battery Master operate identically whether the Leisure Battery is a 12V Lead Acid Battery or a 12V Lithium Battery?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lead Acid Battery is fully charged (so around 12.7V) and not getting any charge?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lithium Battery is fully charged (so around 13.3V) and not getting any charge?

Sorry I know I am not Eddie but I do use the BM with lithium leisure batteries, I would say that the BM operates very infrequently when the lithiums have no charge going to them (in a shed so no solar) The starter battery is maintained around 12.65 volts while the Lithium is as you say higher.

The Votronic battery maintainer work quite differently as it just needs a trigger voltage not a differential.

 

[Hoovie]

Hoping I am not stepping on toes now. But seems Eddie answered this?



So 12.7 + 0.75 = 13.45 which is greater than 13.3V you ask about. So I don't believe it is active?

Only when the van battery falls to 12.55V does the battery master reach the 0.75V differential. And at that voltage the van battery probably needs a bit of a boost???

This is why I queried it

you quoted eddie as saying 0.75V. On the Vanbitz website, they state "half a volt" i.e. 0.5V. Now 0.25V between the two numbers may not sound a lot but it is actually quite a difference.
Maybe the BM has been modified to have a greater differential, which would make a lot of sense when used with Lithium, but when evaluating products, have to go by the published specs on the companies website. (maybe they are out of date but who knows?).

 

[Gromett]

On the Vanbitz website, they state "half a volt" i.e. 0.5V. Now 0.25V between the two numbers may not sound a lot but it is actually quite a difference.

I didn't see it mention any specific voltage on the site.
[Broken Link Removed]

You are correct .25v is a big difference. But I don't know where you got the 0.5V figure from so can't comment.

The installation and test pdf states .8V

[Broken Link Removed]

 

[Hoovie]

I didn't see it mention any specific voltage on the site.
[Broken Link Removed]

You are correct .25v is a big difference. But I don't know where you got the 0.5V figure from so can't comment.

The installation and test pdf states .8V

[Broken Link Removed]

0.75V, 08V, "half a volt", so what is it?

Where is my "half a volt" from? - [Broken Link Removed] and scroll down to "questions and answers"

It is not up to the customers to try and find the right version of the truth. The supplier needs to remove the ambiguities.

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[Gromett]

0.75V, 08V, "half a volt", so what is it?

Where is my "half a volt" from? - [Broken Link Removed] and scroll down to "questions and answers"
View attachment 770040
It is not up to the customers to try and find the right version of the truth. The supplier needs to remove the ambiguities.

I missed that. was looking for 0.5V not "half a volt".

 

[Pausim]

I had a Sterling Battery Maintainer from an earlier set up and this definitely did not work with LiPO. I considered the Battery Master which is a better thought out product but in the end used a 12V time clock and a Victron TR 12/12-9 which has an adjustable output voltage. I set it up to run for 10 minutes every 24 hours at 14V and this seems to keep the engine battery at an acceptable level.

 

[eddie]

I am not a trader on MHF and whilst I do hold the Ablemail AMT Battery Maintainer in high esteem,

I didn’t say you were a trader on ‘here’ I said you sell the products you promote, but didn’t make that clear or known

I have no doubt the Battery Master was a great product of its time (the Ford Popular was a great car as well), but it was, I think you would agree, designed at a time when Lithium Batteries were not in motorhomes and from the published specs I dont think it works in the way it was originally intended to when paired with Lithium.

Which explains your confusion. It was revised to look for a voltage differential some years ago of 0.75 VDC (as I did say many posts ago) and you’ve picked up on an old FAQ’s really there for people that don’t really care so long as it does the job, unlike some who sit andfret about the exact technical spec of this or that.

Doesn't mean it will necessarily cause a problem, but it doesn't mean it works as intended either.

Why, so long as people can leave their van and start it six weeks later with no issue, they really don’t care

Can you confirm and correct my understanding with the following yes/no answers and put this question to bed?
Does the Vanbitz Battery Master operate identically whether the Leisure Battery is a 12V Lead Acid Battery or a 12V Lithium Battery?

Yes it will

Is the BM active when a Leisure Lead Acid Battery is fully charged (so around 12.7V) and not getting any charge?
Is the BM active when a Leisure Lithium Battery is fully charged (so around 13.3V) and not getting any charge?

If the engine battery is fully charged, the Battery Master will not be able to force ‘more charge’ in

Of course, it is impossible for a connected engine battery to ever be fully charged ‘and’ connected as there is ALWAYS a quiescent drain on the engine battery, from the clock, immobiliser, ECU, tracker, alarm and radio memory, so your arguing a theoretical arguement not a practical one

Come back to me with a case history where a Van Bitz lithium installation c/w Battery Master caused an issue or the customer had starting issues, should be easy as there’s hundreds if not thousands of them members on here!

I’ll drop an email to the tech bod at Van Bitz suggesting he updates the FAQ‘s

 

[Hoovie]

I didn’t say you were a trader on ‘here’ I said you sell the products you promote, but didn’t make that clear or known

you did actually. check what you said.

Which explains your confusion. It was revised to look for a voltage differential some years ago of 0.75 VDC (as I did say many posts ago) and you’ve picked up on an old FAQ’s really there for people that don’t really care so long as it does the job, unlike some who sit andfret about the exact technical spec of this or that.

It is published info about the BM on the suppliers website. Who knows it is old or wrong? I don't. anyone reading it won't. Don't blame the user of the website for poor info.
You expect someone looking at your product to scour forums for the correct updated info rather than the companies website? give me a break!

Why, so long as people can leave their van and start it six weeks later with no issue, they really don’t care

Yes it will

If the engine battery is fully charged, the Battery Master will not be able to force ‘more charge’ in

Of course, it is impossible for a connected engine battery to ever be fully charged ‘and’ connected as there is ALWAYS a quiescent drain on the engine battery, from the clock, immobiliser, ECU, tracker, alarm and radio memory, so your arguing a theoretical arguement not a practical one

Come back to me with a case history where a Van Bitz lithium installation c/w Battery Master caused an issue or the customer had starting issues, should be easy as there’s hundreds if not thousands of them members on here!

I’ll drop an email to the tech bod at Van Bitz suggesting he updates the FAQ‘s

most sensible thing you said maybe that will help clear up the confusion created by vanbitz's own variable set of information,


You still didn't answer the question about if the BM works differently depending on the type of battery. The answer is YES, and the answer is maybe NO - depending on what version of Battery Master someone has Like a lucky dip, isn't it

 

[eddie]

I did, read my post

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