Is this the best UK Life4Po leisure battery.

[funflair]

Amazon product ASIN B005M4ZWIO.

Only downside is despite having a union jack on the box it was actually made in China

And you still bought it

 

[jongood]

So it can’t be maintained on a lead acid charging profile, not according to your charging profile which is a lithium profile?

I've currently got a 200ah LifePo4 in paralel with a 220ah Gel.

 

[jongood]

And you still bought it

When I looked more closely it said designed and engineered in UK.

 

[LesW]

And you still bought it

Is anything electrical made in the UK now?

 

[funflair]

Is anything electrical made in the UK now?

Not a lot but it is possible to buy stuff that is made in Europe rather than China we bought a Gaggia bean to cup coffee machine for home as it was made in Italy and the Drayton Smart thermostats for home are made in the UK, OK it's not easy and sometimes you have to be prepared to pay more.

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[dpsuk999]

a question for somebody using more than one I think.

I’ve bought 2 x 460ah but yet to fit them so when I do I’ll let you know, I’ll prob buy another to make it 3

 

[AdrianChen]

Morelo used to fit Mastervolt but they said it was too complicated for a lot of users and service centres had to reprogramme the system when hardware was changed so they moved to Buttner

I would agree with Morelo - had a couple of boats with Mastervolt kit which worked very well and was reliable (except perhaps the batteries), but config was hard work, especialy when Czone added and integration with nav instruments was required. The Victron kit we have on the current van seems equally good quality and albeit there are some quirks like the Orion B2B not reporting through VRM, it is all doing its job well.

 

[DavidCh]

I only use a 1kw kettle as well, but I m not going to criticise someone who wants a bigger one because imo the great thing about all this stuff is we have the ability to set it up to suit our individual requirements.

We have a 600w tiny kettle but enough for two cups of tea. Most economical way to do it.

 

[Raul]

I would agree with Morelo - had a couple of boats with Mastervolt kit which worked very well and was reliable (except perhaps the batteries), but config was hard work, especialy when Czone added and integration with nav instruments was required. The Victron kit we have on the current van seems equally good quality and albeit there are some quirks like the Orion B2B not reporting through VRM, it is all doing its job well.

If you want the B2B to report to VRM, run it trough a bmv and set it as energy meter. Then connect the data cable of the bmv to the GX. No way round it, otherwise set the system as HAS DC and you will see the B2B input as negative values in the DC tile.

 

[PhilandMena]

So it can’t be maintained on a lead acid charging profile, not according to your charging profile which is a lithium profile?

You have lost me with that reply. It can be maintained on a lead acid charging profile and that is what I have with my solar panels and the Sargent charger.

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[bigtwin]

You have lost me with that reply. It can be maintained on a lead acid charging profile and that is what I have with my solar panels and the Sargent charger.

I couldn’t figure it our either.

Ian

 

[Reallyretired]

If you want the B2B to report to VRM, run it trough a bmv and set it as energy meter. Then connect the data cable of the bmv to the GX. No way round it, otherwise set the system as HAS DC and you will see the B2B input as negative values in the DC tile.

An entry for the most acronyms in a single post perhaps.

 

[RobinE]

Two batteries Lenny it’s a no brainer, you will put less stress on each bms. These bmses are mosfet based swich, means all current passes trough the board. Less stress and less heat longer and more reliable life. Always spec double for what you expect to be peak power.

Interesting, I am having the same multiplus fitted later this month by the good folk at Van Bitz. I have elected for a single 300 ah battery (Sterling) due to space in the locker and supply availability. The battery is specced at 300 amp continuous discharge so I thought it would be fine for my purposes. I don't anticipate plugging anything in that would draw more than 150 amps (1800 Watts), so thought I had plenty buffer to allow for peaks and not being too anal about what was switched on at anyone time. I never considered that the BMS might be a weak point. Should I be concerned?

 

[Guigsy]

Interesting, I am having the same multiplus fitted later this month by the good folk at Van Bitz. I have elected for a single 300 ah battery (Sterling) due to space in the locker and supply availability. The battery is specced at 300 amp continuous discharge so I thought it would be fine for my purposes. I don't anticipate plugging anything in that would draw more than 150 amps (1800 Watts), so thought I had plenty buffer to allow for peaks and not being too anal about what was switched on at anyone time. I never considered that the BMS might be a weak point. Should I be concerned?

The BMS will limit current. If you ask too much, it'll shut down. It shouldn't cause a safety issue.

 

[Peregrinator]

You have lost me with that reply. It can be maintained on a lead acid charging profile and that is what I have with my solar panels and the Sargent charger.

Sorry, but I was in a rush at the time, what I was trying to say, lithium batteries can't be truly maintained on a lead acid charging profile, they can be charged to an extent, but to be properly maintained, it needs a lithium profile, to fully benefit, also they can be fast charged with like 50Ah to 60Ah which a lead acid charging profile can not do, which means you would be spending a lot of money for Lithium battery, and gaining on the weight issue only.

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[Hoovie]

If you want the B2B to report to VRM, run it trough a bmv and set it as energy meter. Then connect the data cable of the bmv to the GX. No way round it, otherwise set the system as HAS DC and you will see the B2B input as negative values in the DC tile.

I would like to agree with you, but I can't.
Currently, the VRM system doesn't really understand the BMV when it is set as an Energy Meter. In that mode, the BMV is really just a display of the instanteous power and doesn't log anything of use. What you need to do is leave the BMV as an SOC Battery Monitor. The VRM system will then both show the point-in-time data AND it will log cumulative data as well.
I have a BMV-712 in series with my non-Victron 60A B2B. It is set in the default way (SOC Monitor) but I have the battery capacity set to around 2000Ah and the "full thresholds" to some figures that will never be attained. This way it will keep logging current from the B2B and you can see how much it is contributing when analysing the VRM data downloads.
FWIW, I have my AMT12-2 Battery Maintainer on the same circuit so when I am not getting any power from the B2B, the same BMV is able to tell me how much trickle charge I am sending the Starter Battery when that is active.

PS. I did try the BMV in Energy Meter mode and I liked the big power monitor display but that was the ONLY benefit in that mode. I was rather disappointed to say the least

 

[Raul]

Interesting, I am having the same multiplus fitted later this month by the good folk at Van Bitz. I have elected for a single 300 ah battery (Sterling) due to space in the locker and supply availability. The battery is specced at 300 amp continuous discharge so I thought it would be fine for my purposes. I don't anticipate plugging anything in that would draw more than 150 amps (1800 Watts), so thought I had plenty buffer to allow for peaks and not being too anal about what was switched on at anyone time. I never considered that the BMS might be a weak point. Should I be concerned?

Why should it be a weak point? It’s safety device rated at its given amps, to protect the battery and installation. Your setup will be fine.
I don’t think you understood my meaning of that post.

 

[Raul]

I would like to agree with you, but I can't.
Currently, the VRM system doesn't really understand the BMV when it is set as an Energy Meter. In that mode, the BMV is really just a display of the instanteous power and doesn't log anything of use. What you need to do is leave the BMV as an SOC Battery Monitor. The VRM system will then both show the point-in-time data AND it will log cumulative data as well.
I have a BMV-712 in series with my non-Victron 60A B2B. It is set in the default way (SOC Monitor) but I have the battery capacity set to around 2000Ah and the "full thresholds" to some figures that will never be attained. This way it will keep logging current from the B2B and you can see how much it is contributing when analysing the VRM data downloads.
FWIW, I have my AMT12-2 Battery Maintainer on the same circuit so when I am not getting any power from the B2B, the same BMV is able to tell me how much trickle charge I am sending the Starter Battery when that is active.

I don’t think you quite understood my explanation, it take two bmv’s To achieve what I said. One left as it is, and the second set as energy meter. This is how VICTRON recommends going about it, and many took that path for their needs.

 

[Hoovie]

I don’t think you quite understood my explanation, it take two bmv’s To achieve what I said. One left as it is, and the second set as energy meter. This is how VICTRON recommends going about it, and many took that path for their needs.

Yes, I understood fully.
I don't know if you have tried what you are suggesting or just read about it, but I can tell you from experience it does not work as well as you seem to think - or Victron would like to have you believe.

In my setup I actually have FOUR BMVs. one is an overall SOC Battery Monitor, one is a LiFePO4 Battery Bank Monitor, one is a Lead Carbon Battery Bank Monitor, and the fourth and last one is in series with the 60A B2B, as I explained.
All of these are connected to the Cerbo GX, so yes, I do understand, and no, it will not work in an optimum way as you describe if someone wants to actually log the B2B activity and not just look at a readout (and VRM is all about historical data logging).

 

[Raul]

No I haven’t tried it, I came across at victron community about it, where one of the staff, (GUY) said that’s one method supported by them. In the boat use, this is more adopted than on wheels. And with the new GUI I think there’s more options to skin a kat now, then before.

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[Hoovie]

Is anything electrical made in the UK now?

Yes. And for Motorhomes.

 

[Hoovie]

No I haven’t tried it, I came across at victron community about it, where one of the staff, (GUY) said that’s one method supported by them. In the boat use, this is more adopted than on wheels. And with the new GUI I think there’s more options to skin a kat now, then before.

I love Victron kit, and the Victron Community is a very good resource. But it is not infallible and their kit is not infallible either.

It doesn't matter if the BMV is set to Energy Meter (really Monitor) or default mode, the VRM system will still see a current through it as a negative DC load when a charger is pushing current through it. It is really a LOAD monitor and not a CHARGE Monitor when setup like that in terms of what VRM sees
I just went out to my Motorhome to start the engine for a few minutes to illustrate this ....

The bottom left box is the BMV on the B2B (it is a 60A B2B but configured so only half operates when engine is idling). So I am seeing what the B2B is doing. But as far as the Remote Console display is concerned on the pretty picture graphic, it just sees a negative load.

But in VRM, you see the historical data. Here that current is being logged and recorded. It is also possible to see is the Ah info as well and if you download the CSV you can use this data to work out both the B2Bs charging contribution AND the true DC load which the Remote Console will not give you.

The difference between the BMV between Default and Energy Monitor modes is the data logging. Now the last time I tried the Energy Mode it was in the Beta stage and it is possible that better logging has occured.
Maybe I should change the mode and see if it is any different? They may have fixed the limitation by now?

The system knows about the solar so can remove that 'negative load' but it does not know enough about what is on the BMV to do the same. What Victron need to do is have a setting where you can tell it that a specific shunt (be it a Smartshunt or BMV) is connected to either a charging source or a load (or is a SOC Battery monitor still of course). Then it could calculate and display the data correctly.
If you have a look at the PICO monitoring system from Simarine in Slovakia, you will see a much better way to showing the different load & charge circuits. It is a shame that Victron are lagging behind in this repect when they are so good in others.


PS. I said initially I had a BMV-712 in series with the B2B. I forgot I did some jiggling around and I actually have a BMV-700 there now (I swapped it over with the BMV-700 I had on the LiFePO4 bank) but I don't think that will make any difference to the way the data is logged.

 

[Raul]

I haven’t test it as I don’t have a need. Lots of things have been added and adjusted in the last development. Under beta 3.20 you have bags of features. The dc meter was requested long time ago and victron responded with changes. Lots of work was added from voluntary support by clever and kind ppl either via Git hub and Betts reporting on the victron community.
What I see in package manager is battery aggregator was not there before, in display under GUI you got lots of new power settings, many aimed for boats, but loads can be universally used.
I’m particularly interested and monitor the modification space, along with beta reports, some bits are above me, but I’m there to learn.

 

[Hoovie]

I haven’t test it as I don’t have a need. Lots of things have been added and adjusted in the last development. Under beta 3.20 you have bags of features. The dc meter was requested long time ago and victron responded with changes. Lots of work was added from voluntary support by clever and kind ppl either via Git hub and Betts reporting on the victron community.
What I see in package manager is battery aggregator was not there before, in display under GUI you got lots of new power settings, many aimed for boats, but loads can be universally used.
I’m particularly interested and monitor the modification space, along with beta reports, some bits are above me, but I’m there to learn.

package manager? battery aggregator? please tell me more I have not looked at or tweaked my setup for quite a few months. I use the Node-Red with the OS Large enabled, and I dabble with Home Assistant running on a Pi and reading various Victron devices via the Cerbo GX, but I don't recall the package manager or battery aggregator.
so genuinely would like to hear more (either via reply here or PM, whichever preferred).
Cheers.

 

[Raul]

On git hub there is a nice blind install that can be loaded via usb, without running it from command line. Once installed you reboot, and under settings right down it will appear package manager. Enter there, access and download what you want, including GUI mods, don’t do GUI 2. There is a bug and ppl has to get rid of it. Once installed you will see them under active packges, there’s even gpio controls. I only use GUI simple, and only a fraction of what’s available.

We should be keeping this discussions under victron venus tread, that way is relevant there, and all input is easier to find.

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[JockandRita]

I don't see many alternatives if we want a cup of tea

Like others Martin, we love our little low watt kettle, ours being 830w. It holds enough for 4 x cups.

Staying on the Lithium theme, we have 4 x 90A SLA batteries, of which we can only safely use up to 50%, ie, 180A.
Our highest consumer of power would be the 2000w induction hob, which is never used above the 1000w setting.

With only running the Alde heating on gas, I think that ideally, 2 x 150A Lithiums would serve our needs with power to spare, ie, possibly never ever taking them down to 10%.

So, A.... what amperage would a 2000w induction hob take out of the Lithiums, and B.... would the BMS (or both jointly), be able to cope, without closing the batteries down? I forget how to do the 240v/Amps calculation with 12v.

Thanks in advance.

Jock.

 

[Hoovie]

I forget how to do the 240v/Amps calculation with 12v.

Thanks in advance.

Jock.

for a 12V system, just multiply the AC amps by 20. so 2A on AC = 40A on DC. It will maybe be a little less but with voltage drop due to sag and inverter inefficiencies, x20 will be close enough.

 

[funflair]

Like others Martin, we love our little low watt kettle, ours being 830w. It holds enough for 4 x cups.

Staying on the Lithium theme, we have 4 x 90A SLA batteries, of which we can only safely use up to 50%, ie, 180A.
Our highest consumer of power would be the 2000w induction hob, which is never used above the 1000w setting.

With only running the Alde heating on gas, I think that ideally, 2 x 150A Lithiums would serve our needs with power to spare, ie, possibly never ever taking them down to 10%.

So, A.... what amperage would a 2000w induction hob take out of the Lithiums, and B.... would the BMS (or both jointly), be able to cope, without closing the batteries down? I forget how to do the 240v/Amps calculation with 12v.

Thanks in advance.

Jock.

Hi Jock

Little kettles are OK I just like trying to wind Jon up re induction hob I never need ours more than 50% and it’s more usually at 30% so an intermittent 800 watts, the other question I was a bit too slow but yes x20 is close enough, W=VxA so therefore A=W/V.

 

[Hoovie]

PS. I said initially I had a BMV-712 in series with the B2B. I forgot I did some jiggling around and I actually have a BMV-700 there now (I swapped it over with the BMV-700 I had on the LiFePO4 bank) but I don't think that will make any difference to the way the data is logged.

Thought I would just switch back to Energy Monitor mode to see if VRM has changed and logs data .... This mode is not available on the BMV-700 that I now have on the B2B line.
It is available on the BMV-712 still so I guess it is stored in the bluetooth section of the monitor, similar to the new SOC retention/reset feature? The demarcation line between BMV-700/702 and BMV-712 is increasing all the time beyond just bluetooth.

 

[JockandRita]

BBQ'd, eaten, and everything washed up.

for a 12V system, just multiply the AC amps by 20. so 2A on AC = 40A on DC. It will maybe be a little less but with voltage drop due to sag and inverter inefficiencies, x20 will be close enough.

but yes x20 is close enough, W=VxA so therefore A=W/V.

Thanks both.

So, on that basis, a 2000 watt induction hob at full power would consume 160A- 166A from the batteries, but at half or even a third power we are looking at anywhere from 83A down to 33A per hour, which is more realistic usage, but unlikely as the cooking time would only be a percentage of an hour. This would mean that an individual BMS for a 150A Lithium would handle that consumption, without closing down.
If I've got that wrong, I am more than happy to be put right.........please.

Also, can the BMS of each battery work together as one, and be controlled by the same Bluetooth App?

Cheers,

Jock.

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