In or Out have your say by (real) voting

[Chris]

No. The Council of Europe "is separate from the 28-nation European Union, though sometimes confused with it".

But members are expected to ratify it ?

So doesn't it follow( sort of) that non members can please themselves?

 

[Judge Mental]

Unchristian?
You are joking aren't you?
I have no truck with any EU citizen, that wants to come to the UK and work to better themselves! Those who come just for the benefits they can claim are not welcome, well certainly not by me!
Why is it discriminatory? No one twisted their arms to come to the UK!
If they have not worked and contributed then they can sod off back from whence they came!

But that's a figmant of your imagination....immigration is driving the economy for goodness sakelol and why the Tories want more to make up for their clueless economics....24/7 shopping is Osborne's notion as to a healthy economy and more part time jobs without proper benefits

 

[sdc77]

How is immigration "driving" the economy?
There's no doubt that hard working migrants are a good thing and always have been.
Our economy is strong compared to most eu countries but that's not because of migration .. it's because we're now more efficient and attractive to companies to base themselves here. None of this is because of migrants. In fact it's because of this that a lot of them want to come here.
If we ran our country in the inneficient and top heavy way that the EU does then we could probably complain.

 

[mariner]

But that's a figmant of your imagination....immigration is driving the economy for goodness sakelol and why the Tories want more to make up for their clueless economics....24/7 shopping is Osborne's notion as to a healthy economy and more part time jobs without proper benefits

First unchristian and now a figment of my imagination!

It's certainly a novel way of debating an issue!

What if I said that there are up to 200,000 EU migrants out of work and claiming benefits as I write this?
This does not include the many thousands that claim child benefit and their children are not even in the UK!
Hows that for a figment?

 

[WillH]

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. Any referendum whether for in or out will have no bearing on the ECHR as it affects the UK's laws.

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[Geo]

I want the 10 billion we give to Europe back.
I want trade deals that work for us with commonwealth countries and any other country.
I want to determine our own farming and fishing quotas.
I don't mind a common market

I as an individual and small business I have benefited many £ from the Eu and its regs if i'm honest
so before we demand a refund on what we have paid out, can someone work out what we have received
even given the above i'm still not sure which way ill vote or even if I'll bother
because i'm convinced having been the chairman of a few, and a committee member of many, organisations most
if not all of the big questions are sorted out well before any meetings take place

 

[sdc77]

Also.. when you compare benefits of member states you can draw certain conclusions
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10391238/Benefits-in-Europe-country-by-country.html

 

[Judge Mental]

First unchristian and now a figment of my imagination!

It's certainly a novel way of debating an issue!

What if I said that there are up to 200,000 EU migrants out of work and claiming benefits as I write this?
This does not include the many thousands that claim child benefit and their children are not even in the UK!
Hows that for a figment?

I think your mixing with a bad crowd and reading red top newspapers

 

[mariner]

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. Any referendum whether for in or out will have no bearing on the ECHR as it affects the UK's laws.

Maybe, but if we do withdraw from the EU we can also withdraw from the Council of Europe!
We are a Democratic Nation and if the will of the people is to reject the Council of Europe then it will happen!

 

[mariner]

I think your mixing with a bad crowd and reading red top newspapers

Now you are using assumption!

Unchristian, figments of imagination and now assumption!

As it happens I don't read any newspapers and the people I mix with are, I can assure you, not "a bad crowd."
You don't query my figures because you can't!
You asked what powers we have lost and I informed you, but it would seem that you don't really want to hear the truth!
Call me Dave has just been on a jolly to the EU spending all of the last 2 nights on the p**s with his Euro mates, and not trying to renegotiate the Benefits issue with other member sates!
What worries me even more, is that you have a Vote!

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[GJH]

But members are expected to ratify it ?

So doesn't it follow( sort of) that non members can please themselves?

That refers to the 47 members of the Council of Europe, not the 28 members of the European Union.

Maybe, but if we do withdraw from the EU we can also withdraw from the Council of Europe!
We are a Democratic Nation and if the will of the people is to reject the Council of Europe then it will happen!

Has anyone actually suggested that the UK withdraws from the Council of Europe?

Controversial ECtHR decisions in recent years have been the judgements made on the provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998, an Act passed by the UK parliament not by any European body. The problem is that the HRA is bad law but that is the fault of the UK parliament in 1998 and nothing to do with any European body. The HRA can be amended, repealed or replaced by the UK parliament without any reference to any European body save that the UK is committed to ensure that such changes also ratify the ECHR.

Compliance with the ECHR is not incompatible with preventing adverse decisions by the ECtHR. All it needs is derogations including in legislation properly, much as other Council of Europe members have used in implementing their versions of the HRA. The courts, though, can only interpret the law as it stands.

 

[etap]

Thank goodness this forum of members don't run the country or we shall all be running away.

 

[Judge Mental]

while you are all getting excited about all these fellow Europeans being able to claim benfits and raising your blood pressure. Just on news these benefits estimated to cost £30 million? We spend exactly the same amount into research every year into driver less car technology!lol

your being lead by the nose up a blind alley...lt also seems to escape your notice the majority of these workers pay taxes at source...Now how noval a concept is that for a Tory

 

[sylvester1954]

I don't like Michael Gove or David Davis anyway...two politicians in the out camp. Now l see that the lunatic George Galloway is voting "out"....that's me sorted then to remain 'in'. Anything associated with that poisonous cretin confirms the decision is untrustworthy!

 

[Judge Mental]

I don't like Michael Gove or David Davis anyway...two politicians in the out camp. Now l see that the lunatic George Galloway is voting "out"....that's me sorted then to remain 'in'. Anything associated with that poisonous cretin confirms the decision is untrustworthy!

agree with all that except I like GG very much A great orator except on this issue

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[SandT]

http://eureferendum.com/

"David Cameron has cobbled together a pretend treaty combining a mish-mash of aspirations and political declarations, with no legal force whatsoever. Those parts which promise substantive change are dependent on treaty change at some unspecified point in the future, with no guarantees that they can be delivered.

Thus, the claim to have opted out of "ever closer union" - the federalist ratchet at the heart of the 28-country project – can have no legal effect until this future new treaty is in place. Likewise, the supposed safeguards on the eurozone are entirely dependent on this mythical treaty. They rest on clauses yet to be written by future leaders, which then have to be agreed and ratified by all 28-member states – and any others that may have joined in the interim.

The supposed "emergency brake" on welfare benefits is the ultimate confidence trick. Mr Cameron and the heads of state have simply re-cooked a 22-year-old provision written in the European Economic Area Agreement, fiddling with minor provisions in existing EU law which now need European Parliament approval and which can be overturned at a drop of a hat.

The "red card" is nothing but a hollow joke. It only applies to a fraction of the EU law book and can only be evoked on such narrow technical grounds, that even former Foreign Secretary William Hague joked that if the Commission proposed to slaughter the first-born, we would not be able to stop it.

Britain is still in just as much danger of being dragged along in the slipstream of the Continent's headlong rush to the formation of a new state that will crush what is left of our freedom and democracy. Having offered a new treaty in his 2013 Bloomberg speech, in which he first promised a referendum, and then promised a "full-on" treaty change, Mr Cameron has come back from Brussels with a pretend treaty which amounts to a fraud on the British people. "

It will all depend on new treaties being agreed and signed but non of this will happen until after the referendum.

Do you trust the EU ?

Terry

 

[WillH]

I don't trust the EU very much, probably as little as I trust the UK government and a little more than the Scottish government. I still see no overwhelming reasons to either remain, or, to leave. I am looking at this from a personal point of view, will I be better, or worse off, and as things stand I cannot for the life of me see any change either way.

 

[Judge Mental]

The only reason we are having a referendum in the first place is due to the torys being irrevocably split! Waste of time and money, far more important issues to worry sbout

 

[haganap]

Also.. when you compare benefits of member states you can draw certain conclusions
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10391238/Benefits-in-Europe-country-by-country.html

Quite informative that link. Shows what DC never got changed though. Just one of the many reasons to vote out in my mind.

I think your mixing with a bad crowd and reading red top newspapers

Must say having read most of your replies and attempts at discussion and debate the above about sums your view up. You offer nothing to the debate, you are the precise reason why the country will be peed off with the whole thing. Instead of attacking the rationale for someone wanting to leave you instead attack the person(s) themselves eluding to the fact they must be-
Unchristian- because they have a theory that differs to yours on benefits.
Shameful- because they have a view that EU migrants shouln't come and get owt for nowt.
A rag top reader with unassuming friends. - heaven knows where this bit comes from.
A Tory - because someone differs in their view to yours.

Why not stick to the facts and give a proper debate?

No one has yet given me a good argument for staying based on FACTS.
No one has given me a good argument for leaving based on FACTS.
but,
What I see with my eyes on a daily basis tell me leave before the Turks join in and the hand car wash market bursts.

 

[mariner]

while you are all getting excited about all these fellow Europeans being able to claim benfits and raising your blood pressure. Just on news these benefits estimated to cost £30 million? We spend exactly the same amount into research every year into driver less car technology!lol

your being lead by the nose up a blind alley...lt also seems to escape your notice the majority of these workers pay taxes at source...Now how noval a concept is that for a Tory

The DWP analysis says EU migrants on “in-work” benefits cost the taxpayer £530m in 2013!
That does not include unemployed EU migrants!
That was 3 years ago and it has risen since then!

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[Judge Mental]

Oops!

 

[Judge Mental]

Quite informative that link. Shows what DC never got changed though. Just one of the many reasons to vote out in my mind.



Must say having read most of your replies and attempts at discussion and debate the above about sums your view up. You offer nothing to the debate, you are the precise reason why the country will be peed off with the whole thing. Instead of attacking the rationale for someone wanting to leave you instead attack the person(s) themselves eluding to the fact they must be-
Unchristian- because they have a theory that differs to yours on benefits.
Shameful- because they have a view that EU migrants shouln't come and get owt for nowt.
A rag top reader with unassuming friends. - heaven knows where this bit comes from.
A Tory - because someone differs in their view to yours.

Why not stick to the facts and give a proper debate?

No one has yet given me a good argument for staying based on FACTS.
No one has given me a good argument for leaving based on FACTS.
but,
What I see with my eyes on a daily basis tell me leave before the Turks join in and the hand car wash market bursts.

Less of the personal invective . Are you seriously contending two equally qualified men doing the same job...One from another EU country one from here. that one is due benefits and one not. They both pay taxes..... How Christian an attitude is that.....

 

[sdc77]

Christian or charitable? ( in case it's a spellchecker)



But from my point of view...
A Bulgarian person who cones here to work gets access to all our benefits system. Housing child benefit unemployment etc
If I went to Bulgaria I'd get virtually nothing

The EU has charitably or incompetenty allowed millions of migrants across its borders. No one knows who they are as most have no passport.
If accepted into Europe as many as want can come here.
Out means they can't. So I'm out (and a christian)

 

[GJH]

The only reason we are having a referendum in the first place is due to the torys being irrevocably split! Waste of time and money, far more important issues to worry sbout

So what? That has been going on too long, just like the Scottish independence question, and time it was swept out of the way for a generation at least.

What I find strange is Corbyn complaining that Cameron is only calling the referendum because of Tory party problems. I thought Corbyn wanted to stay in so why is he taking silly, petty little swipes rather than joining Cameron in endorsing the deal?

 

[sdc77]

@Judge Mental the tories might be split. At least they're true to their values. But it's not the tories. It's the country that's split .. you seemed to conveniently forget that through your red tinted spectacles

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[Judge Mental]

Christian or charitable? ( in case it's a spellchecker)



But from my point of view...
A Bulgarian person who cones here to work gets access to all our benefits system. Housing child benefit unemployment etc
If I went to Bulgaria I'd get virtually nothing

The EU has charitably or incompetenty allowed millions of migrants across its borders. No one knows who they are as most have no passport.
If accepted into Europe as many as want can come here.
Out means they can't. So I'm out (and a christian)

As i said earler that's the fault of our non contributory benefit system...

 

[mariner]

As i said earler that's the fault of our non contributory benefit system...

Well you have certainly made my mind up for me!

 

[FULL TIMER]

I don't like Michael Gove or David Davis anyway...two politicians in the out camp. Now l see that the lunatic George Galloway is voting "out"....that's me sorted then to remain 'in'. Anything associated with that poisonous cretin confirms the decision is untrustworthy!

The fact the that murdering traitor Blair is wanting to stay in the EU would be more worrying for me

 

[Abacist]

Take it back to first principles. The countries with more money contribute more so that the countries with less get more. That is socialism. Do we get back more in invisibles than we give in higher contributions - I have no idea! I believe in capitalism so wealth creators, innovators and entrepreneurs can create businesses which is what creates employment and wealth. On that basis I am voting out!

The EU accounts have not had a clean audit report for more years than anyone can remember which means that the system has been corrupt, remains corrupt and is showing no signs of ending being corrupt anytime soon. I am a retired chartered accountant and if the accounts can't be audited and given a clean bill of health then I won't support our continued membership of a corrupt system.

There is an endless move to more centralisation, bureaucracy etc which is created by the unelected eurocrats which stifles us all in red tape and it is applied by member countries unequally. Unfortunately the UK always plays by the rules so we seem to get shafted most of the time. I don't want to be part of a euro state, euro financial system, euro tax system or euro anything else so I'm out!

As for benefits it annoys me that countries without such systems can let their people come here and take from us without giving anything in return. Entitlement to benefits for family members not even living here is crazy! This also affects the NHS significantly with health tourism. When we go abroad we have to pay charges to use our Euro health card yet the same does not seem to apply when they come here. How many years has this been happening and yet it is still happening! I want our NHS to start a charging system and anyone without a UK National Insurance or National Health Number needs to be charged even if they wave a EU health card and when there is a charging system in place then nobody else in the world can come here without paying the full commercial rate for health care here.
If you go to a USA hospital there will be a security guard who won't let you leave before processing your credit card regardless of whether you have medical insurance and more likely they'll take a swipe before treating you than afterwards! Let's get real!

 

[Judge Mental]

As for the great white hope Boris...what a careerist buffoon!lol. along with the rest of the pathetic gang of seven. Ian duncan smith on the tv this morning and if possible he is even more moronic. Boris probably the worse london major yet and wants to lead the country! more likely to be lunching with Russian oligarchs then building affordable property for Londoners where his record lamentable....loved by the tory aging blue rinse brigade. it reminds me of whats going on in the states at the moment.

Your all fixated on immigration....its as a nonsense. more comes from outside the EU and Torys cant even control that in two parliaments!


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