I won't use LiFePO4 Batteries

[Jo662]

Just for clarity, you don't get more power from Lithium than you do from LA.
If your Lithium batteries were the same capacity as your LA batteries they'd have also been discharged after 4 days also.
I understand that LA batteries 'age' and lose capacity over time mainly caused by a poor charging regime, particularly letting the battery stand idle when not fully charged causing internal sulfation and this leads to a 100Ah battery quickly becoming somewhat less and often an awful lot less but just to avoid confusion and false information.
I've seen so many posts over the years on here and other forums from campers thinking that if they swap out their LA battery for a lithium they'll be able to run loads of 240v items from an inverter and have loads of power available and that's simply NOT the case.
A 100 Ah LA battery will give you 100AH and so will a lithium of the same capacity.

That's not really true. You can only run your LA batteries down to about 50% , and if you do that continuously they won't last very long. My lithiums can run down completely, but mine are set to only run down to 20%. Also a lithium battery will charge up much faster than an LA battery as more efficient .

 

[Langtoftlad]

I'm probably putting the kybosh on things...
But two Banner LA batteries installed by the converter nearly six years ago with 120w solar panel, cheapest PWM controller, charger & split relay... seems to have mostly provided all the power I've needed [apart from experimenting with beer dispensers & icemakers].
The installation of lithium replacement just doesn't seem a good investment/upgrade to a six year old van...
Estimated cost of having lithium fitted with the associated bits would be north of £2k - replacing the Banners with similar when they eventually fail, about £300.

 

[bigtwin]

I think it is a lot easier to manage than a Lead Acid system.

Yes, leads are soo fussy; they need special chargers that have a special profile and if you don’t charge them properly, and, just as importantly, fully then you compromise their performance/life. While I know that you understand this, many folks (particularly, but not exclusively, newbies) don’t.

People are having problems.

People are suffering from a lack of understanding; much like they do with many of the technical aspects of their hobby.

but failed lead acids reports are posted almost daily, so many that I've got fed up with replying to them.

Yes, they have a very poor lifetime, and are vulnerable to misuse (no such issues are possible with LiFePo4s as they are managed and protected from such misuse by their inbuilt BMS). They’re soo finicky and aren’t really suitable to be left in the hands of novices.

I just dropped mine in and changed charger and solar settings

That’ll be the ‘special equipment/chargers’ that they need then; oh no, leads acids need those too.

Of course people are having problems with lithium. Just like they do with fridges, heating, engines, other types of battery and everything else on/in a motorhome.

Indeed. A lack of understanding is often the root of many ‘problems’. We still don’t know if the problems experienced by colyboy were user error or an equipment fault.

I don't want more power, but I have been looking at water heating or something else for over a year now to use up my surplus power, as it seems such a waste to have everything full before dinner time when the sun hasn't really got going, the best part of the days solar is just going to waste.

This is quite a common modification (particularly for those who have changed to LiFePo4 ) in the narrowboat world. If you look for the Facebook Group “12V boating group” you’ll find details in the ‘files’ section of the group.

A 100 Ah LA battery will give you 100AH and so will a lithium of the same capacity.

No sh*t Sherlock; however, it‘scsomewhat disingenuous to ignore the consequences of treating a lead acid battery in that manner.

I disagree. you can run LifePo4 down to 20% as opposed to 40% for L.A. and you can use mains power for longer.

Agreed.

The point you are missing is the difference in the safe level of depth of discharge (DOD) and available capacity. Typical safe DOD is 50% for LA, 60% for GEL and 95% for Lithium.

Indeed.

Lead-acid and gel batteries need to be slow charged once they reach a certain level

They’re soo fickle are they not! They also need a special charger to achieve that! LiFePo4s are much more robust.

Lead Acid is certainly cheaper but I’ve read loads of posts on here from people struggling with that technology as well.

Yes, they can be a challenge to manage and many are not aware of the long term damage that results from their misuse relating to both charging and discharging.

People seem to see lead acid as 'simple' and lithium as 'complicated'. It is just as easy (in fact much easier) to wreck a lead acid battery than a lithium because it has no protection. However that seems to be accepted.

Indeed.

That's not really true. You can only run your LA batteries down to about 50% , and if you do that continuously they won't last very long.

Indeed.

Ian

 

[bigtwin]

But two Banner LA batteries installed by the converter nearly six years ago with 120w solar panel, cheapest PWM controller, charger & split relay... seems to have mostly provided all the power I've needed

Sometimes, systems just work for some users.

[apart from experimenting with beer dispensers & icemakers].

Other times, as you’ve discovered, they have their limitations. Those limitations, as you’ve discovered, can prevent you from living life as you’d like to live it.

The installation of lithium replacement just doesn't seem a good investment/upgrade to a six year old van...

Motorhoming shouldn’t be regarded as a financial investment (it doesn’t work) but as an investment in living a fulfilling life, it can’t be beaten.
Folks often refer to the length of time it takes to payback the cost of fitting Gaslow. They’re missing the point, you fit Gaslow to ENABLE a hassle free experience when travelling on the continent. Much like anyone’s choice to fit any other bit of kit (LiFePo4 batteries included), it’s a personal decision about how much benefit you realise for the cost incurred. Everyone has different needs and budgets.

Ian

 

[zac]

Motorhoming shouldn’t be regarded as a financial investment (it doesn’t work) but as an investment in living a fulfilling life, it can’t be beaten.
Folks often refer to the length of time it takes to payback the cost of fitting Gaslow. They’re missing the point, you fit Gaslow to ENABLE a hassle free experience when travelling on the continent. Much like anyone’s choice to fit any other bit of kit (LiFePo4 batteries included), it’s a personal decision about how much benefit you realise for the cost incurred. Everyone has different needs and budgets.

Ian

For me this is spot on, its not about recouping the cost against something that is cheaper but about making life easier for me when travelling. I don't think i have ever paid for something in our motorhome that has saved me money. I am also one for paying more to have something done by people i trust rather than taking it to the cheapest person i can find just to save a few quid as after sales service is more important to me than cost. I had my 2 x 100ah lithium's fitted a couple of years ago along with some other bits like the B2B and i can honestly say i have not had a single issue with the lithium to date and i would never go back to lead acid batteries.

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[Langtoftlad]

People are suffering from a lack of understanding; much like they do with many of the technical aspects of their hobby.

Perhaps it's you misunderstanding that for the majority, the hobby is not the van but the destinations and have no interest in how or why things work, as long as they do.

Other times, as you’ve discovered, they have their limitations. Those limitations, as you’ve discovered, can prevent you from living life as you’d like to live it.

Not real world limitations though, more of satisfying my curiosity. Certainly not preventing me living life as I'd want to... FYI the batteries coped with the beer dispenser, but it was the low powered clip on inverter that said no to the icemaker, not the batteries.

YMMV of course, but I see no value [to me] in spending an extra £1500 to see no benefit.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

I guess benefit is measured relative to individual use case, for us it was mainly about ditching the weight (circa 50+kg) of two ageing 92Ah AGM batteries which were replaced by a single 120Ah lithium (circa 14kg), possible because of DOD capability coupled with recharging rate of lithium via solar or B2B.

But our needs are fairly basic, currently no inverter, hairdryer, coffee machine, ice maker or beer machine onboard. But should that change, we can expand the lithium capacity as required.

 

[Jim]

A 100 Ah LA battery will give you 100AH and so will a lithium of the same capacity.

That is just not true, between charges my 100AH LiFePO4 will give me many more useable AH that the 100AH Lead acid. Not only that I can charge it in less than half the time and it's half the weight

 

[bigtwin]

Perhaps it's you misunderstanding that for the majority, the hobby is not the van but the destinations and have no interest in how or why things work, as long as they do.

Therein lies the answer to why you perceive that LiFePo4s are problematic. Your majority do not understand the equipment and seek help on here. Ergo, LiFePo4s are problematic and your post:

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/i-dont-like-lifepo4-batteries.277939/post-5465092

 

[Lenny HB]

Just for clarity, you don't get more power from Lithium than you do from LA.
If your Lithium batteries were the same capacity as your LA batteries they'd have also been discharged after 4 days also.

I don't think you understand battery chemistry very well. A LA battery life will be shortened drastically if you discharge them by more than 50%, LiFeP04 can be discharged below 10% without problem, so a LiFeP04 has nearly twice the power available.
The self discharge rate for an LA is up to 8% a month compared to less than 3% for LiFeP04.

I understand that LA batteries 'age' and lose capacity over time mainly caused by a poor charging regime, particularly letting the battery stand idle when not fully charged causing internal sulfation and this leads to a 100Ah battery quickly becoming somewhat less and often an awful lot less but just to avoid confusion and false information.

LA loose approximately 2.5% of their capacity a year LiFeP04 the loss is so small it's negligible.

I've seen so many posts over the years on here and other forums from campers thinking that if they swap out their LA battery for a lithium they'll be able to run loads of 240v items from an inverter and have loads of power available and that's simply NOT the case.
A 100 Ah LA battery will give you 100AH and so will a lithium of the same capacity.

Not true, a 100 ah LA will give 50ah of usable power but should not be discharged at more than the C5 rate which is 20 amps.

A 100 ah LiFeP04 will give around 90 to 95 ah of useable power and can be discharged at the C1 rate which is 100 amps,.

Running a moderate 1000 watt inverter at full power is within the capability of a single 100 ah LiFeP04 battery but if using LA batteries you would need 450 ah to do the same if you don't want to damage them.

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[Raul]

Wow, let’s go back to steam engine.
Lead needs 125-130ah of charging for 100ah to be used. LFP it’s 99,5% efficient, you put in 100ah and you get out almost 100ah back. The amount of energy lead is wasting to keep afloat and prevent suphation is mind boggling. Just measure and plot a graph and see that almost 50% of energy is wasted. I speak from experience with off grid house and lead acid battery bank for the past 8 years.
Thank god that LFP is so much more accessible compared to 8-10 years ago.

 

[JJ]

After reading this thread I have decided to rip out my solar charged leisure battery and replace it with a low maintenance, clockwork system that only needs attention once a day... if I need more power I will fit an extra long spring.

No "wind up" comments please...

JJ

 

[Steve and Denise]

After reading this thread I have decided to rip out my solar charged leisure battery and replace it with low maintenance, clockwork system that only needs attention once a day... if I need more power I will fit an extra long spring.

No "wind up" comments please...

JJ

I have a lightly used system made by Luddite & Co that may just fit your requirements JJ

 

[Langtoftlad]

Therein lies the answer to why you perceive that LiFePo4s are problematic. Your majority do not understand the equipment and seek help on here. Ergo, LiFePo4s are problematic and your post:

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/i-dont-like-lifepo4-batteries.277939/post-5465092

Err - not me, not my post
Lithium isn't on my radar, that's all. I don't need them and I don't want to spend thousands on something I don't currently []need.

So certainly not problematic.
But I do suspect a certain level of, what I call, Mauritius Syndrome

 

[funflair]

Err - not me, not my post
Lithium isn't on my radar, that's all. I don't need them and I don't want to spend thousands on something I don't currently []need.

So certainly not problematic.
But I do suspect a certain level of, what I call, Mauritius Syndrome

Pray tell?

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[DavidCh]

On this whole subject I cant get away from my own experience. I used to live on a yacht and I had 3 Rolls AGM batteries of 210 ah each. I had them for ten years and the effort of looking after them was significant, making sure they were properly charged, checking all voltages before leaving them, making sure they were never discharged below 60%, it was more trouble than the dog!. I wanted to make sure they were OK as I had invested best part of £2000 in them when I bought them new. I notice it would be more like £3000 to replace them now. They weighed an impressive 185kg The 660ah capacity was therefore more like 270ah when new and probably only about 250ah after ten years. The lithium I built for the motorhome gives me 280ah for about £600 and will probably still have 270ah in ten years time (and weighs 22kg). It has a BMS to look after itself so its pretty much fit and forget. Why we are debating the benefit of lithium over lead acid is beyond me. Obviously I could have bought cheaper batteries, not looked after them and then replaced them every couple of years but that is not exactly fun.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Pray tell?

When someone spends so much money, endures long flights to sit on a beach, they have to say it's wonderful... can't say it was rubbish & a waste of money.

 

[jongood]

the other thing I find is using an electric kettle gives more room because you can leave the hob lid down also keeping the kitchen tidier. and an electric kettle turns itself off when boiled.

 

[UptheGas]

As a complete novice on all the different types of batteries and b2bs , I’m here for information. Only had Moho for a few months but when we’ve picked it up from storage the leisure battery ( platinum leisure plus EFB ) reads about 5v . Our van has a 120v solar panel and it also has one of those b2b thingys !
The battery is just over a yr old , it fully charges when on EH and a decent drive .
long and short … is my battery knackered ?

 

[Guigsy]

Lithium is currently a faff because the existing chargers in vans generally don't support the appropriate charge profiles. You've got to think about your solar, B2B/DC and mains hookup chargers as well as whether your wiring will cope. But I suspect that newer vans will start to support lithium from they factory, even if it remains an expensive option for a while.

The other issue is charging when it's below freezing. But I'm not sure how much of an issue this is. It's rare that a van will get down to freezing inside when you still intend to use it. As long as your BMS protects it, it shouldn't be damaged.

Yes, LiFeO4 batteries with their associated Battery Management System are more complex than a lead-acid. But that doesn't make them less reliable.

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[funflair]

When someone spends so much money, endures long flights to sit on a beach, they have to say it's wonderful... can't say it was rubbish & a waste of money.

Sort of as I guessed not sure it applies to Lithium purchase, but I would say that wouldn't I we were so unhappy with 2x160ah factory fit LiFePO4 that we bought another two just to make ourselves thoroughly miserable.
.
.
.
.
It hasn't worked though

 

[funflair]

As a complete novice on all the different types of batteries and b2bs , I’m here for information. Only had Moho for a few months but when we’ve picked it up from storage the leisure battery ( platinum leisure plus EFB ) reads about 5v . Our van has a 120v solar panel and it also has one of those b2b thingys !
The battery is just over a yr old , it fully charges when on EH and a decent drive .
long and short … is my battery knackered ?

Fair chance the answer to that is YES, my scooter battery did come back from 2v but perceived wisdom would say it's no better than a door stop now, the next question though is why when you have a 120watt (w not v) solar panel installed.

 

[DavidCh]

As a complete novice on all the different types of batteries and b2bs , I’m here for information. Only had Moho for a few months but when we’ve picked it up from storage the leisure battery ( platinum leisure plus EFB ) reads about 5v . Our van has a 120v solar panel and it also has one of those b2b thingys !
The battery is just over a yr old , it fully charges when on EH and a decent drive .
long and short … is my battery knackered ?

Probably, it certainly will never be 'as good as new'. The fact you already have b2b means a switch to lithium is much less of a problem (assuming it has a lithium profile). It is worth mentioning that a further benefit of Lithium is that if you are going to leave it in storage for a long time (say six months) get it charged to 50% then turn it off and disconnect it. It will stay keep happy for ages. This is the way the manufacturers both store and ship them.

 

[UptheGas]

Fair chance the answer to that is YES, my scooter battery did come back from 2v but perceived wisdom would say it's no better than a door stop now, the next question though is why when you have a 120watt (w not v) solar panel installed.

Thanks . Oops watts not Vaults . I did say I was a complete novice with a lot to learn

 

[UptheGas]

Probably, it certainly will never be 'as good as new'. The fact you already have b2b means a switch to lithium is much less of a problem (assuming it has a lithium profile). It is worth mentioning that a further benefit of Lithium is that if you are going to leave it in storage for a long time (say six months) get it charged to 50% then turn it off and disconnect it. It will stay keep happy for ages. This is the way the manufacturers both store and ship them.

Thanks , better go and visit these vanbitz guys then soon as they’re not too far from me

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[bigtwin]

Err - not me, not my post

Opps, you have my apologies.

Ian

 

[Pausim]

Just for clarity, you don't get more power from Lithium than you do from LA.
If your Lithium batteries were the same capacity as your LA batteries they'd have also been discharged after 4 days also.
I understand that LA batteries 'age' and lose capacity over time mainly caused by a poor charging regime, particularly letting the battery stand idle when not fully charged causing internal sulfation and this leads to a 100Ah battery quickly becoming somewhat less and often an awful lot less but just to avoid confusion and false information.
I've seen so many posts over the years on here and other forums from campers thinking that if they swap out their LA battery for a lithium they'll be able to run loads of 240v items from an inverter and have loads of power available and that's simply NOT the case.
A 100 Ah LA battery will give you 100AH and so will a lithium of the same capacity.

I can think of a few reasons why this is not true. The first concerning the lower safe discharge level of LiFePO4 (Li) has already been covered but effectively means you can safely get more Ah out of an Li.

The second is the often ignored Peukerts exponent which has a much greater effect on Lead Acid (Pb) batteries than Li ones. When battery manufacturers quote the Ah of a battery they normally do so at a very low rate of discharge, a 20 hour (C/20) rate is not uncommon. This means that a 100Ah battery being discharged at a rate of 5A will hold 100Ah of power. However if you increase the output to say 20A then the capacity of a Pb battery is much reduced. The effect on Li ones is much less. If you start using a good sized inverter you might be halving the capacity of a Pb battery but still get 90% out of an Li. Free Peukert calculators are available online if you want to check this out.

A third is cold weather performance. Lots of people bleat about charging Li batteries below freezing but ignore the effect on discharging. Cold Li batteries lose very little output power but cold lead acid ones drop off a lot. My view is that neither should be a problem in a winterised motorhome because the leisure batteries should always stay above freezing. However if the Li detractors want to use cold charging as an argument against Li they should also allow the supporters to quote the poor cold weather output performance of Pb batteries.

Another point is charging performance. Probably not a big issue for either Li or Pb until you are trying to harvest a few Ah from a solar panel in weak winter sun. If you are the 99% charge efficiency of Li is better than the 95% charge efficiency of Pb.

I am not pretending that either battery type is perfect but for me after 5+ years of use the additional cost of a Lithium one has proved worthwhile.

 

[bigtwin]

when we’ve picked it up from storage the leisure battery ( platinum leisure plus EFB ) reads about 5v

it fully charges when on EH and a decent drive .

How are you establishing that it is fully charged?

is my battery knackered ?

In all likelihood, it is fubarred!

 

[Gromett]

When someone spends so much money, endures long flights to sit on a beach, they have to say it's wonderful... can't say it was rubbish & a waste of money.

It actually has a name. Choice supportive bias but more commonly known as post purchase rationalisation.

Choice-supportive bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[UptheGas]

How are you establishing that it is fully charged?



In all likelihood, it is fubarred!

It charged back up to 13.6 and if I’ve read things right this is fully charged?
We’ve only used the van for two weekends and used EH so it hadn’t really been an issue but we’re planning on going to France this summer for a few weeks and will most likely need to use the leisure battery at times .

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