I’ve often wondered why Lenny hates AGM batteries? (2 Viewers)

[Just smiffy]

Ohh and don’t worry about the battery master, that is ether connected via the cables to the battery or somewhere else…

 

[stevewagner]

For not much more money you could get a lithium. Then you could set the CBE charger to GEL which is acceptable in the absence of a Lifepo setting.

 

[ChrisL]

Don't forget lead carbon, gel or agm, they are likely to last longer as they resist sulphation.

 

[Riverbankannie]

Make sure you set your victron controller to GEL in the victron app…

There’s an app ? Controller and panel fitted by AshVanBitz so he might know.

 

[Riverbankannie]

For not much more money you could get a lithium. Then you could set the CBE charger to GEL which is acceptable in the absence of a Lifepo setting.

Now you are just giving me more choices and making my head hurt. No wonder there are so many threads about batteries !
It took me all day to find the AGM one that fitted and was same or similar to existing.
Just smiffy don’t worry, we will not be trying to lift it as I know weighs 35 kg.
Just want to understand what we are doing so when we find auto electrician strong enough we know more than him ( has to be a him I think )

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[ChrisL]

There’s an app ? Controller and panel fitted by AshVanBitz so he might know.

VictronConnect - Apps on Google Play

Get live status info and configure Victron products via bluetooth or USB

play.google.com

 

[pappajohn]

The AGM starter battery on my car with smart alternator lasted 5 years.... With auto stop/start turned off.
I doubt it would last that long with stop/start enabled.

 

[Just smiffy]

There’s an app ? Controller and panel fitted by AshVanBitz so he might know.

Yes, go to App Store (iPhone) or Google play? (Android) and download the victron app then in future it will tell you what’s going on with your solar and battery…

 

[Riverbankannie]

Yes, go to App Store (iPhone) or Google play? (Android) and download the victron app then in future it will tell you what’s going on with your solar and battery…

View attachment 802409

I suspect that they would have told me when fitted if it was bluetooth enabled, just said bye bye and no need to worry about it or open that dreaded cupboard door with all that electrickery in it , again !
And I never have or even worried about battery charge, I am certainly not going to start monitoring now. It must be a man thing - like what mpg do you get on that? Never heard a woman say that

 

[Pausim]

Then you could set the CBE charger to GEL which is acceptable in the absence of a Lifepo setting.

I started off using the Gel setting on my CBE 516 charger with its 14.3V/13.6V for my LiFePO4. However it has an 8 hour constant voltage period which whilst good for Gel batteries is far longer than I was comfortable with for LiFePO4. I now use the Pb setting which at 14.1V/13.5V slightly undercharges the battery but has a more acceptable 90 minute constant voltage phase. My thinking is that undercharging LiFePO4 causes no harm whatsoever and while I am on an EHU I don’t need a 100% full battery, 95% is just fine. I only need 100% when I am not on EHU and my B2B takes care of this.

LiFePO4 batteries do not need or want a long constant voltage stage, ideally they should drop back to a maintenance charge as soon as they reach their top voltage. The Pb setting is closer to this than the Gel one. Unlike all types of lead battery they are fine with undercharging.

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[Riverbankannie]

I started off using the Gel setting on my CBE 516 charger with its 14.3V/13.6V for my LiFePO4. However it has an 8 hour constant voltage period which whilst good for Gel batteries is far longer than I was comfortable with for LiFePO4. I now use the Pb setting which at 14.1V/13.5V slightly undercharges the battery but has a more acceptable 90 minute constant voltage phase. My thinking is that undercharging LiFePO4 causes no harm whatsoever and while I am on an EHU I don’t need a 100% full battery, 95% is just fine. I only need 100% when I am not on EHU and my B2B takes care of this.

LiFePO4 batteries do not need or want a long constant voltage stage, ideally they should drop back to a maintenance charge as soon as they reach their top voltage. The Pb setting is closer to this than the Gel one. Unlike all types of lead battery they are fine with undercharging.

Oh crumbs - disagreements - That doesn’t help at all

 

[Pausim]

Oh crumbs - disagreements - That doesn’t help at all

Don’t worry about it, if you choose LiFePO4 they are very forgiving and look after themselves far better than any of the lead acid types.

 

[AshVanBitz]

I suspect that they would have told me when fitted if it was bluetooth enabled, just said bye bye and no need to worry about it or open that dreaded cupboard door with all that electrickery in it , again !
And I never have or even worried about battery charge, I am certainly not going to start monitoring now. It must be a man thing - like what mpg do you get on that? Never heard a woman say that

When did we install your system? The latest systems that we install include a Victron Smartsolar regulator that includes bluetooth connectivity but previously we supplied the Bluesolar regulator which didn’t. All our systems are set to suit the customers battery type on installation so if your doesn’t have the Bluetooth then it is fit and forget.
life you would like to know exactly what was installed please send me an email (ash@vanbitz.com) and I can check you notes. I am out of the office until Monday so I will come back to you as soon as possible.
Kindest regards
Ash

 

[Silver-Fox]

It must be a man thing - like what mpg do you get on that? Never heard a woman say that

Never heard a man say what steam iron do you use

Tin hat on and I’m off, sharpish

 

[VXman]

There’s an app ? Controller and panel fitted by AshVanBitz so he might know.

Your controller (as seen in post 51) doesn't have Bluetooth so no app.

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[Lenny HB]

Hi Lenny HB
After 8 years of trouble free life, I think our battery has come to it’s end. The last two nights at Twinwood, the low battery alarm beeped in the early morning about 6am. Set to come on at 11.5v.
You once had a look at it at quackers to help determine what type it was (after your battery talk). I can now confirm it is a 145 ah AGM (eek!)

View attachment 802165
Having considered all our options, all of which require some sort of help as it weighs 35kg, we have decided simplest option is to replace like for like.
We don’t use an inverter, have a 100w solar and so far in our 8 years of never paying for hook up unless included and long stays off grid at quackers and other rallies, Swaffham for a week for example, we have never run out before now.

I think it would be well over 1k to change to lithium what with purchase price and paying for fitting of new charger etc.
This is our charger which is currently set to Pb but has a gel setting.
View attachment 802167

Am currently considering these two batteries from Alpha batteries, the cheaper one seems to promise more cycles but the Leoch one currently fitted to new IH.

View attachment 802172
View attachment 802176

This is our solar regulator setup and current battery as uncovered so far. If a son were able to help just exchange, what should we do to disconnect ?
Remove solar lead and how? Turn off anything else? Remove negative then positive from existing battery?
View attachment 802170
View attachment 802171
And is this the battery master? What to do with that?
View attachment 802168

I know you are currently fully hands on with Northernraider (very jealous) but your input appreciated even if it is to say don’t get another AGM! View attachment 802166

Hi Annie, yep been a bit busy sorting out Tam's Italian spaghetti and got a rotten cough so not been on the forum much the last couple of days.
I think you have been very lucky with you AGM probably because you rarely use EHU and the Victron solar has the correct profile for AGM. As Paul pointed out your mains charger is not suitable for AGM.
If it was me I wouldn't risk another AGM unless it was the exact same one even then I wouldn't be too sure. A 100 ah Gel would give you similar useable capacity so I would go for that.

Changing the battery over is just a straight swap you don't need to worry about the Victron as that should retain it's settings for 12v and leave the battery master alone.
Although probably best to cover the solar panel and remove one of the pv leads from the Victron.

If you change to Gel you will need to change the Victron & CBE units to Gel settings.

 

[Riverbankannie]

I think you have been very lucky with you AGM probably because you rarely use EHU

Well, it is left on EHU for the winter months so that I can plug in a small heater on frost setting, having that prevents the running condensation that I would otherwise get, and yes, I do have ventilation. However, I presume in that situation, it is only minimal trickle charge going into battery from the 240 charger as there is no drain on it.
There are no switches on the Victron to change it to gel setting and it doesn’t look like it should be taken apart unlike the 240v charger on which the front cover comes off.

 

[PhilandMena]

Just what is a cycle and how do you know how many it's done, ? Our batteries are never below 12.5 but the solar puts them back to 14 by dinnertime , is that a cycle? Or does it mean down to 12 and back up again or what?

My understanding is a cycle is one discharge and recharge back to full, regardless of how low the discharge is. It just means more cycles the lower the discharge,

 

[PhilandMena]

I would not be swayed by Lenny's hate for AGM's, to the best of my knowledge its based on a bad experiance he had with Banner AGM batteries back in the 60's and has never got over it.
There has been some big developements in AGM technology since then and today we have Pure Lead Carbon deep cycle batteries in the market place.
I have just fitted 2 x Leoch AGM batteries and my expectation is they will out perform my last set of LA by a significant margin.
They will be maintained by Solar Regulators only, on a user setting, as my Sargent charger has a 15 V Equalisation charge every 30 days which is harmful to AGM batteries.
I also got them much cheaper than advertised, as the UK Leoch dealer is based in Market Harbourough and I could collect, saving delivery cost.

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-105-G27-DT) (SLCA-12115 DT)

Group 27 Leoch Battery 12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC105-G27-DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? Positive Plate This paste formula used is designed to minimise water consumption providing a longer service life at 1300 cycles at 50%DoD. Designed for...

batteryfactory.co.uk

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0084/9369/5035/files/ldc12-105-g27-dt.pdf?v=1639734876

 

[rosalan]

Thank you Lenny HB. If only I had followed all your advice I would not have replaced my 95ah AGM with another AGM (100ah) this week. Mine had died after almost exactly 11 months. Halfords, had to chuck it as could not find guarantee .

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[Pablo19]

I would not be swayed by Lenny's hate for AGM's, to the best of my knowledge its based on a bad experiance he had with Banner AGM batteries back in the 60's and has never got over it.
There has been some big developements in AGM technology since then and today we have Pure Lead Carbon deep cycle batteries in the market place.
I have just fitted 2 x Leoch AGM batteries and my expectation is they will out perform my last set of LA by a significant margin.
They will be maintained by Solar Regulators only, on a user setting, as my Sargent charger has a 15 V Equalisation charge every 30 days which is harmful to AGM batteries.
I also got them much cheaper than advertised, as the UK Leoch dealer is based in Market Harbourough and I could collect, saving delivery cost.

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-105-G27-DT) (SLCA-12115 DT)

Group 27 Leoch Battery 12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC105-G27-DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? Positive Plate This paste formula used is designed to minimise water consumption providing a longer service life at 1300 cycles at 50%DoD. Designed for...

batteryfactory.co.uk

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0084/9369/5035/files/ldc12-105-g27-dt.pdf?v=1639734876

To be fair, I've just had a bad experience with a Banner AGM battery in the 2020s! Although I don't think my charger settings were correct from new which probably didn't help.

 

[Pausim]

My understanding is a cycle is one discharge and recharge back to full, regardless of how low the discharge is. It just means more cycles the lower the discharge,

You certainly get more cycles with lower levels of discharge. I think manufacturers usually base their headline claims about cycle life on 50% discharge and replacing at 50% remaining capacity but it is not clear that they are all using the same levels. The rate of discharge and the rate of recharge also make a difference.

To be fair, I've just had a bad experience with a Banner AGM battery in the 2020s! Although I don't think my charger settings were correct from new which probably didn't help.

I think the problem with AGM is that their charging requirements are very precise and many mains chargers do not look after them properly, despite the claims that they have compatible settings.

 

[Lenny HB]

There are no switches on the Victron to change it to gel setting and it doesn’t look like it should be taken apart unlike the 240v charger on which the front cover comes off.

You have to do it via the VE Direct port not a DIY job for you but a Funster may be able to help.

 

[stevewagner]

I started off using the Gel setting on my CBE 516 charger with its 14.3V/13.6V for my LiFePO4. However it has an 8 hour constant voltage period which whilst good for Gel batteries is far longer than I was comfortable with for LiFePO4. I now use the Pb setting which at 14.1V/13.5V slightly undercharges the battery but has a more acceptable 90 minute constant voltage phase. My thinking is that undercharging LiFePO4 causes no harm whatsoever and while I am on an EHU I don’t need a 100% full battery, 95% is just fine. I only need 100% when I am not on EHU and my B2B takes care of this.

LiFePO4 batteries do not need or want a long constant voltage stage, ideally they should drop back to a maintenance charge as soon as they reach their top voltage. The Pb setting is closer to this than the Gel one. Unlike all types of lead battery they are fine with undercharging.

My charger is a CBE but I never use EHU so doesn’t matter to me. I was only quoting what lithium suppliers advise. The BMS on my set up seems to work very well as does the Sterling B2B charger so I am more than happy with mine.

 

[Pablo19]

You certainly get more cycles with lower levels of discharge. I think manufacturers usually base their headline claims about cycle life on 50% discharge and replacing at 50% remaining capacity but it is not clear that they are all using the same levels. The rate of discharge and the rate of recharge also make a difference.
I think the problem with AGM is that their charging requirements are very precise and many mains chargers do not look after them properly, despite the claims that they have compatible settings.

My charger is capable of charging AGM batteries but I don't believe it was ever set correctly. A bit like the Alde pump settings which were causing the header tank to bubble away. I'm trying to find the best settings at the moment on another thread for my replacement gel batteries to make sure it doesn't happen again!!

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[Just smiffy]

Hi Annie, yep been a bit busy sorting out Tam's Italian spaghetti and got a rotten cough so not been on the forum much the last couple of days.
I think you have been very lucky with you AGM probably because you rarely use EHU and the Victron solar has the correct profile for AGM. As Paul pointed out your mains charger is not suitable for AGM.
If it was me I wouldn't risk another AGM unless it was the exact same one even then I wouldn't be too sure. A 100 ah Gel would give you similar useable capacity so I would go for that.

Changing the battery over is just a straight swap you don't need to worry about the Victron as that should retain it's settings for 12v and leave the battery master alone.
Although probably best to cover the solar panel and remove one of the pv leads from the Victron.

If you change to Gel you will need to change the Victron & CBE units to Gel settings.

Exactly what I said… the student is learning oh master….

 

[AshVanBitz]

We all have our preferences to which type we prefer and which ones we dislike and who has the right to say who is right or wrong. We all have bad experiences with things in life and make personal choices not to use them/it again. In my personal opinion (which may be controversial), I can’t see the advantages of Gel or AGM’s to honest. The additional costs over a lead acid alternative, I can’t see as being justifiable. I have seen batteries last 6 months and others last well over 10 years (by memory the LA batteries were 13 years old and still going strong). It is how you use and treat a battery which will determine how long it lasts (generally).
So if you like lead acid, gel, AGM, carbon, lithium it really doesn’t matter as long as you are happy with them!!