How long will they be using the 9-speed autos on Fiats (1 Viewer)

[Saucer]

Peter Vaughan has said that they are phasing these out for motorhome manufacturers, at least as I understand it. I think there has been discussion on here about a newer (?inferior) 8 speed auto on the way. We may not be ready to buy until next year when we may buy new. Do people think they will still be selling the 9-speed auto on new vans then? I thought some of you good (and well informed) people might know.
Thanks

 

[Lenny HB]

I was out in the MH this week. I tried resetting the cruise control back to the previous setting (56) on coming out of a roundabout and it pulled like a train changing gear at about 2500rpm. Totally different to my experience with manual control. Maybe I don’t have a heavy enough right foot!

With autos cruise control always floors the throttle until set speed is reached.

 

[Pausim]

I was out in the MH this week. I tried resetting the cruise control back to the previous setting (56) on coming out of a roundabout and it pulled like a train changing gear at about 2500rpm. Totally different to my experience with manual control. Maybe I don’t have a heavy enough right foot!

Some drivers seem very hesitant to hold a gear and floor the throttle. I find it shows when people are joining motorways. The Highway Code says to match your speed to that of the traffic and then to merge into a gap but time after time I find a slower vehicle trying to push in at a slower speed just because they have not accelerated enough. Fair enough with HGVs but there is not a car on the road that can’t reach 55+ to match the near side lane speed needed for a safe merge. It is particularly annoying when forced out a lane to overtake a slow joiner who then speeds up slowly, whilst you are alongside them trapping you on the outside. OK a bit of a rant but to me it demonstrates a complete lack of awareness that amounts to poor driving skills.

 

[fred_jb]

When I was keeping note of the gear to revs relationship as in post #29 above, and also flicking through the other information on the digital display, I did notice that even when ‘coasting’ and the fuel economy showing maximum, the gear indicator remained the same and the revs were where I would have expected them given the speed.

Totally agree about engine braking downhill. We’ve been up and down some seriously steep climbs in the Alps and elsewhere during the past 18 months, and it’s been a pleasure to drive it. As you say, it’s uncanny how well it selects or holds a gear on steep descents, which makes it very easy on the brakes.

Interesting. On a recent trip in our new Ducato based van with 180 hp and 9 speed auto gearbox, steep downhills were the only situation where I wasn't entirely happy with the box. My experience was that as I eased off the throttle on a steep downhill the gearbox took that as an invitation to change up a gear just as it would on the flat.

This was not what is needed to maximise engine braking and the disconnection in drive as it changed ratios gave a momentary horrible runaway sensation on steep downhills. As a result, in those situations I put it in manual gear selection mode. That was fine, but I would rather not have to do that - that's not what I paid extra for!

I had exactly the same experience some years ago with a Honda NC motorcycle with DCT transmission and generally also put that in manual mode in the mountains. The Honda had no sensor for detecting slopes to allow it to modify its behaviour accordingly, and I suspect that must also be the case for the Ducato auto.

 

[MichaelT]

Interesting. On a recent trip in our new Ducato based van with 180 hp and 9 speed auto gearbox, steep downhills were the only situation where I wasn't entirely happy with the box. My experience was that as I eased off the throttle on a steep downhill the gearbox took that as an invitation to change up a gear just as it would on the flat.

This was not what is needed to maximise engine braking and the disconnection in drive as it changed ratios gave a momentary horrible runaway sensation on steep downhills. As a result, in those situations I put it in manual gear selection mode. That was fine, but I would rather not have to do that - that's not what I paid extra for!

I had exactly the same experience some years ago with a Honda NC motorcycle with DCT transmission and generally also put that in manual mode in the mountains. The Honda had no sensor for detecting slopes to allow it to modify its behaviour accordingly, and I suspect that must also be the case for the Ducato auto.

You should also be braking

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[Basildog]

With autos cruise control always floors the throttle until set speed is reached.

My manuals all seen to do that too

 

[DuxDeluxe]

My 5speed manual is fine Some of you must have more money than sense

Has it ever occurred to you that some people actually need an auto gearbox? No, thought not……

 

[fred_jb]

You should also be braking

I was of course also braking, but trying not to do so continuously to avoid overheating the brakes. I try to just use engine braking on the less steep bits to give the brakes a break!

I just would have liked the van to stay in a lower gear when going downhill, even when I wasn't actively braking. However, it seems like putting it in manual mode is the only way to do this as the auto box algorithms are a bit too keen to change up in such situations.

 

[Saucer]

It looks like we’ll have to see what the new 8-speed auto gearbox is like, alongside the chassis changes. It is good to hear they should be doing it on the Peugeot as well.
Incidentally, I drive a Skoda Superb with DSG gearbox, which was the first auto I’d driven (apart from the odd holiday rental). When I hired a Adria PVC with the ZX gearbox I thought it was good but not like my car, but maybe that was expecting a lot because the Skoda is a dream to drive.

 

[fred_jb]

It looks like we’ll have to see what the new 8-speed auto gearbox is like, alongside the chassis changes. It is good to hear they should be doing it on the Peugeot as well.
Incidentally, I drive a Skoda Superb with DSG gearbox, which was the first auto I’d driven (apart from the odd holiday rental). When I hired a Adria PVC with the ZX gearbox I thought it was good but not like my car, but maybe that was expecting a lot because the Skoda is a dream to drive.

Yes, we have DSG on my wife's Audi A3 plug in hybrid, and that is likewise a dream to drive. Almost imperceptible changes unless flooring it, and even then the changes are so quick that it just gives a seamless stream of acceleration. As a bonus, the electric motor also works through the gearbox so makes the electric drive much more flexible, with great acceleration and a top speed of 87 mph on electric only without troubling the petrol motor! Shame it only has a range of about 30 miles on battery only.

Of course the DSG boxes are a whole different technology with dual shafts and clutches which makes it possible to line up the next gear in advance for a very quick and smooth gear change. In contrast the ZF autos, while being quite smooth, are rather slow to make ratio changes, giving what to me is a very noticeable gap in drive when a change happens - alright on the flat, but a bit of momentary freewheeling is not what I want on a downhill!

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[Pausim]

The DSG is a dream gearbox, we have one on our Audi. It very much disproves the idea that automated clutch gearboxes are always inferior to torque converter ones by being better. However after the first 2 days with the 9 speed box on our Malibu Van I have to say it is also impressive, slides through the gears seamlessly. With gentle driving it drops into 9th gear at about 55mph, keeping the revs nice and low.

 

[Pausim]

Stellantis/Fiat are claiming significant improvements with their new 8 speed auto. It will be interesting to read how Motorhomefun users rate it.

FIAT Professional introduces the new 8-speed automatic transmission for the New Ducato: more comfort, driving pleasure and efficiency

The new transmission promises a significantly enhanced driving experience, boasting improved performance, comfort, and a 10% reduction in CO2 emissions.

www.media.stellantis.com

 

[Guigsy]

Stellantis/Fiat are claiming significant improvements with their new 8 speed auto. It will be interesting to read how Motorhomefun users rate it.

FIAT Professional introduces the new 8-speed automatic transmission for the New Ducato: more comfort, driving pleasure and efficiency

The new transmission promises a significantly enhanced driving experience, boasting improved performance, comfort, and a 10% reduction in CO2 emissions.

www.media.stellantis.com

Those are some pretty significant efficiency claims! And the fact it mentions campers and heavy vehicles is encouraging.

The ZF 9 speed is generally reliable (if it was filled with enough oil at the factory), smooth and fuss free. If the new 8 speed matches it, I'd be very happy... Although I'm hoping it'll be a cheaper option than the current +£3.5k.

 

[Lenny HB]

Certainly blowing their own trumpet about it.
Only done 800 mile in my new van with the 9 speed & 180 engine, even if it is better I doubt if I would notice the difference, the 9 speed is such a smooth drive.

 

[gus-lopez]

OK a bit of a rant but to me it demonstrates a complete lack of awareness that amounts to poor driving skills.

These are the same people who have trouble in walking without wandering all over the place.

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[enark]

Interesting. On a recent trip in our new Ducato based van with 180 hp and 9 speed auto gearbox, steep downhills were the only situation where I wasn't entirely happy with the box. My experience was that as I eased off the throttle on a steep downhill the gearbox took that as an invitation to change up a gear just as it would on the flat.

This was not what is needed to maximise engine braking and the disconnection in drive as it changed ratios gave a momentary horrible runaway sensation on steep downhills. As a result, in those situations I put it in manual gear selection mode. That was fine, but I would rather not have to do that - that's not what I paid extra for!

I had exactly the same experience some years ago with a Honda NC motorcycle with DCT transmission and generally also put that in manual mode in the mountains. The Honda had no sensor for detecting slopes to allow it to modify its behaviour accordingly, and I suspect that must also be the case for the Ducato auto.

Hill descent control should help on steep downhills?

I used it with a comformatic and it helped, think basically just knocked it down a gear or two, havent yet tried it with the 9sp ZF. With auto cars, i have usually just flicked to manual in hilly areas, especially when towing.

My first 1500 miles with the 9sp have been a revelation, its as silky smooth as my car.

 

[Lenny HB]

Hill descent control should help on steep downhills?

I used it with a comformatic and it helped, think basically just knocked it down a gear or two,

Are you confusing it with the UP button, hill decent limits max speed to 25 kmh (15.5mph) and you are not supposed to touch the peddles when using it.

 

[maison]

Hill descent control should help on steep downhills?

I used it with a comformatic and it helped, think basically just knocked it down a gear or two, havent yet tried it with the 9sp ZF. With auto cars, i have usually just flicked to manual in hilly areas, especially when towing.

My first 1500 miles with the 9sp have been a revelation, it’s as silky smooth as my car.

With our 9xspeed box I use the auto gearstick to change down and lock into a lower gear for steep hill descents. Works well.

 

[enark]

Are you confusing it with the UP button, hill decent limits max speed to 25 kmh (15.5mph) and you are not supposed to touch the peddles when using it.

No, then it would be hill ascent?

 

[fred_jb]

With our 9xspeed box I use the auto gearstick to change down and lock into a lower gear for steep hill descents. Works well.

Yes, that is what I resorted to, but if the auto box had a bit more intelligence then I wouldn't have needed to. Maybe it's not the fault of the gearbox, as possibly the Ducato lacks an IMU (inertial measurement unit) to detect vehicle pitch angle and direction, which high end cars using this gearbox no doubt have.

The manual change option also doesn't seem too clever in that I assumed it would be overridden by the auto function in certain situations, but in my admittedly limited experience that didn't seem to happen, so it seems that you have to be on your guard to not let engine revs get too high before changing up when in manual change mode.

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[Pukka]

Those are some pretty significant efficiency claims! And the fact it mentions campers and heavy vehicles is encouraging.

The ZF 9 speed is generally reliable (if it was filled with enough oil at the factory), smooth and fuss free. If the new 8 speed matches it, I'd be very happy... Although I'm hoping it'll be a cheaper option than the current +£3.5k.

Do you know if it's possible to check the level of the gearbox oil?

 

[WESTY66]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m reading that the new 8 speed is another robotic gearbox

 

[Guigsy]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m reading that the new 8 speed is another robotic gearbox

Unlikely. There's not an 8 speed manual to robotise. And I think they've revealed who they've licenced the design from... They've used it before.

 

[1967bowesj]

Unlikely. There's not an 8 speed manual to robotise. And I think they've revealed who they've licenced the design from... They've used it before.

Is it the asin? Like in there car range, at least its a torque converter.
Mind i did many miles in the car version of the robotic box without issue and i wasnt gentle on it

 

[Pausim]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m reading that the new 8 speed is another robotic gearbox

Don’t be mislead by the references to clutches and hydraulics, even torque converter automatics need something to engage the different gears. I think they were referred to as belts rather than clutches in the past and yes they can wear out and either slip or grab. I had an auto Golf where the belts started to give up.

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[Scotch mist]

Do you know if it's possible to check the level of the gearbox oil?

Could be wrong but I think you have to empty the oil from the box & refill with the correct amount of oil , pretty sure there is no dipstick

 

[Guigsy]

Don’t be mislead by the references to clutches and hydraulics, even torque converter automatics need something to engage the different gears. I think they were referred to as belts rather than clutches in the past and yes they can wear out and either slip or grab. I had an auto Golf where the belts started to give up.

Robotised boxes generally have one clutch and the actuation is via servomotors, not hydraulics. Torque convertors have clutch packs between gearing sets that are hydraulically actuated. I think the braking bands can be used to give different speeds within a gearset to allow different planetary gears to rotate. I'm not sure if that's always used though?

 

[Lenny HB]

With our 9xspeed box I use the auto gearstick to change down and lock into a lower gear for steep hill descents. Works well.

Not driven ours that much yet but trying out the different modes. In Eco it was a bit sluggish on long up hill gradients, in Power mode didn't notice an awful lot of difference apart from holding low gears on descents giving quite a bit of engine braking.

 

[maison]

Not driven ours that much yet but trying out the different modes. In Eco it was a bit sluggish on long up hill gradients, in Power mode didn't notice an awful lot of difference apart from holding low gears on descents giving quite a bit of engine braking.

I agree with your initial impression of “Eco”. I only use it on Motorways or good A roads without steep hills, normally using the standard mode.

As you say “Power” mode holds onto the lower gear for longer so on steep climbs, think mountain areas, it makes the hill climb easier so I have used it for that.

I find that the ability to manually select and hold a gear is by far the best way use engine braking. Slip the lever sideways from “D”, move it to select your gear and Robert is your mother’s brother.

I think you will come to love the gearbox, most users do. I didn’t want it because of the additional cost but, at the time, I was lucky enough to have two dealerships, two miles apart, with the same model available. By trading one off against the other I got the autobox “free”.

 

[Lenny HB]

I think you will come to love the gearbox, most users do. I didn’t want it because of the additional cost

Didn't have a choice 180 engine & 9 speed is standard on my van but I would have ordered it anyway if it wasn't. Loved it in the first 5 miles.

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[MichaelT]

Didn't have a choice 180 engine & 9 speed is standard on my van but I would have ordered it anyway if it wasn't. Loved it in the first 5 miles.

I loved it as soon as it started up, just sounded and felt better.