HGV or not

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Euroanchor said:
This arguement can be divided into several camps,
Firstly those who drive a vehicle over 7.5 tonne who haven't got an hgv licence who will argue till the cows come home that they dont need an hgv licence because their vehicle doesn't carry goods (yeah very pedantic).

Secondly , those who have for whatever reason, already got an hgv licence, and dont need to worry about licencing issues.


However, the bottom line stands that, there is a difference between taxation class, licencing class and mot classification.

Just because your vehicle is taxed as plg, does not mean it is a car, If you take time to look at licencing catagories, you will see that they refer to each class by weight, ie under 7500kgs or over 7500kgs. Or more recently 3500kgs.

To drive a VEHICLE (regardless of its taxation or MOT class) over 7500kgs ,you need the relevant licence. Argueing that "it is a motorhome on the V5" so I can drive a 10 ton RV on a normal car licence, is not only foolish, but extremely arrogant.

I also cant believe that people keep saying that nobody has been prosecuted for it, so it must be ok, Nice arguement until you have an accident and your insurance refuses to pay out because you "do not hold the relevant licence to drive the class of vehicle"

I know of 2 people, who, like Chris Eubank had this thing about trying to act like a yank, and drive a tractor unit,and because they managed to have it taxed as a private vehicle for £185 instead of the £1000 s it costs for a 44 tonner, they believed they could drive it on a car licence, WRONG !! The units were 9 tonne each, and their licence only permitted them to drive a VEHICLE under 7500kgs. They were both convicted of driving without the appropriate licence, fined and had points on their licence.

You might not like or agree with what i've said, thats your perogative, I for one have a class 1 hgv, or whatever they call it nowadays, I've driven heavy haulage units of 150 tonne, and 100 ft long, so am licenced to drive anything.
If you have been driving an RV over 7500kgs for a while,do yourself a favour and take a class c test, it will be a doddle if you are even half a driver, and will cost you a couple of hundred pound, If not, try your luck and get convicted, that will probably cost about the same in fines and additional insurance premiums, the difference is, you only need to take the test once, the fines can come indefinately.
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You state several camps but mention only two;
  1. Those that don't think they need a C licence
  2. Those that have one.
What about those that have the licence but don't think they need it? And those like me that think it is a grey area that is not at all straight-forward and needs addressing:Smile:

Please tell me if I am being pedantic, foolish or arrogant, but if it as black and white as you say.. and the licence is only to do with the weight; why can you not take the C test in a motorhome? :BigGrin:

NB: You will get plenty of vigourous debate in this grey area of Motorhome licencing without implying that anyone who disagrees with you is foolish, arrogant or pedantic. Whether this was your intention or not, please remember this is motorhome FUN:Smile:
 
You state several camps but mention only two;
Those that don't think they need a C licence
Those that have one.
What about those that have the licence but don't think they need it?

Please tell me if I am being pedantic, foolish or arrogant, but if it as black and white as you say.. and the licence is only to do with the weight; why can you not take the C test in a motorhome?

Very good point Jim forgot that one :Smile:
GT researched the subject of wether you needed a HGV licence over 7.5tonne so thoroughly and wrote all his findings on the other side. He seemed to have all the different departments tied up in knots including the Police who admitted the fact. Everybody concluded at the end of the day including GT that it was probably wisest in the interests of safety to actually go to the trouble of having lessons and taking the test but it was highly likely also that if you were stopped and only produced a car licence that if it even got to court it would more than likely be thrown out. So like the A frame argument its down to the individual at the end of the day wether you take the chance or not. GT also thoroughly researched the A frame question also and was adament that it was illegal but hundreds if not thousands of us choose to differ and do it :Smile:
 
Hi not wishing to upset anyone, but I feel that the point that was made earlier in the thread regards insurance companies may be a valid one!

Insurance companies are renowned for trying to wriggle out of claims and a wrongly licenced driver would be an all too simple reason to refuse a claim, also how would you feel if you or your vehicle were to be hit by one of these such drivers resulting in you not being able to claim against their insurance?

I also feel that as some of the UK's RV dealers are now including LGV tuition with the sales of RVs over 7500kgs that in it self must surely indicate something?

Furthermore what licence is required when towing a car on a trailer/'A' frame?

I have been told it is a Class 1 i.e articulated/rigid+trailer licence the Class 2 only covers rigid vehicles without trailers! So if that is the case inorder to tow using a vehicle over 7500kgs 2 tests are required, as Class 1 can only be taken after having passing Class 2! Also I believe that there has to be a year's delay between these tests so that the driver gets experience of driving a rigid vehicle before being allowed to tow.

Regards Pat (Class 1 licence holder)
 
Hgv

Hi

I looked into this a while back and as part of my research telephoned South Yorkshire Police and asked for the traffic department. I asked the question what would happen if, a motorhome /RV was being driven on a car licence and the RV in question weighed more than 7500 kg. The force phoned me back with the implications.

Similarly, people with car licences passed before a certain date are limited to 3500 kg.

I also discovered that if you wanted to do your HGV test in an RV, this was not allowed.

There is a lot of info on the DVLA website about driving motorhomes and weights etc.

Personally, I cannot see why people don't just do the HGV test and clear up any loose ends.

Driving a large coach sized viehicle is a totally different concept to driving a car. If it was n't, bus firms and lorry firms would not be short of drivers. (I am aware that wages etc play a part in recruitment.)

In my personal view, if a vehicle weighs over 7500 kg, then the licence should be upgraded to reflect the vehicle that the owner wants to drive.

Of course, if a large vehicle - be it a bus or lorry or what ever, was to run me over or have a collision with me/my property, I would expect part of the investigation to look at the drivers licence. That in turn could open a whole can of worms with insurance.

If anyone is driving an RV weighing over 7500kg on a car licence - or indeed any vehicle weighing over 3500kg - depending on when you passed your test, ask yourself this.

If I have an accident and badly damage the RV, will the insurer payout? If I run over and paralyse a young man who has 60 years ahead of him, can I afford the litigation? Check with your insurance company re your licence. I know what they will say.

Russell

goes into a box now with a tin hat on.
 
I agree entirely with the Ruffingit and Rapide

Insurance could be an issue. I think that it hasn't been so yet or a small community like ours would have heard about it. But insurance companies will wriggle more than any worm to get off a hook so that has to be a serious consideration if you choose to drive an overweight motorhome.

I think that most half decent drivers could go from a car to an 8 ton motorhome without any real problems, but that means there are plenty of drivers that could not. So we must legislate clearly to prevent them from doing so and the only responsible thing to do is ensure that everyone is tested.

Its a grey area that really needs sorting out. the problem is that we now have to include Europe if we wish to change anything, so changes may be a long time coming.

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Hgv

Euroanchor said:
This arguement can be divided into several camps,
Firstly those who drive a vehicle over 7.5 tonne who haven't got an hgv licence who will argue till the cows come home that they dont need an hgv licence because their vehicle doesn't carry goods (yeah very pedantic).

Secondly , those who have for whatever reason, already got an hgv licence, and dont need to worry about licencing issues.

However, the bottom line stands that, there is a difference between taxation class, licencing class and mot classification.

Just because your vehicle is taxed as plg, does not mean it is a car, If you take time to look at licencing catagories, you will see that they refer to each class by weight, ie under 7500kgs or over 7500kgs. Or more recently 3500kgs.

To drive a VEHICLE (regardless of its taxation or MOT class) over 7500kgs ,you need the relevant licence. Argueing that "it is a motorhome on the V5" so I can drive a 10 ton RV on a normal car licence, is not only foolish, but extremely arrogant.

I also cant believe that people keep saying that nobody has been prosecuted for it, so it must be ok, Nice arguement until you have an accident and your insurance refuses to pay out because you "do not hold the relevant licence to drive the class of vehicle"

I know of 2 people, who, like Chris Eubank had this thing about trying to act like a yank, and drive a tractor unit,and because they managed to have it taxed as a private vehicle for £185 instead of the £1000 s it costs for a 44 tonner, they believed they could drive it on a car licence, WRONG !! The units were 9 tonne each, and their licence only permitted them to drive a VEHICLE under 7500kgs. They were both convicted of driving without the appropriate licence, fined and had points on their licence.

You might not like or agree with what i've said, thats your perogative, I for one have a class 1 hgv, or whatever they call it nowadays, I've driven heavy haulage units of 150 tonne, and 100 ft long, so am licenced to drive anything.
If you have been driving an RV over 7500kgs for a while,do yourself a favour and take a class c test, it will be a doddle if you are even half a driver, and will cost you a couple of hundred pound, If not, try your luck and get convicted, that will probably cost about the same in fines and additional insurance premiums, the difference is, you only need to take the test once, the fines can come indefinately.
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VERY GOOD. Also, as an HGV driver, you may find that you want to do a bit of part time HGV work. You may laugh now, but many firms like to have part timers on their books who will do "a bit now and again".

Russell
 
Yes Pat, in order to tow a trailer over a certain weight with an RV you do need a class C + E licence but NO there is no delay required between tests. I took my class C to drive my 12 ton RV on a Friday morning and followed it exactly a week later by taking my class E Licence - luckily enough I passed both and so can drive a 16 speed manual gear box on a 60ft long artic etc., etc., etc.

But that is not really the point that so many people seem to miss. At the risk of getting my fingers burned I will put it into absolutely basic English.

First and foremost for the sake of clarity let us forget about weight and just concentrate for a second on the vehicle:

There are two basic types of vehicle - the passenger carrying car and the goods carrying lorry. (I am not talking about specialist vehicles such as cranes, armoured fighting vehicles etc, etc).

Each of those two types come in several sizes - e.g.

you can have a small lorry (van) which will carry small cargo (goods) and can therefore be driven on a small licence (B licence), you can have a medium to bigger lorry which will carry medium to bigger goods and requires a bigger licence (Class C) and then you have the big boys HGV which requires the fully Yorkie bar licence (the C+E) licence. Now nobody argues about that in any way whatsoever, do they? If you drive an HGV you are subject to Tachograph laws, driver hours laws, restricted lane laws etc., etc., etc.

You can have a small car capable of carrying up to about 7 people and you can drive it on a small licence (B Licence) You can have a medium to large vehicle carrying between 8 and 50 people and you require a more special licence (PSV or D Licence) and you can a large car in the shape of a house (an RV) for which you need another special licence (only there isn't one, is there.)

Yes, there is says you, you need an HGV licence Sorry an RV is not an HGV, it is not taxed as an HGV, it is not licenced or MOT'ed as an HGV and it is not subject to HGV laws so, if an RV is not an HGV then it must be a car (albeit a very big and very heavy car but nonetheless it is a car) so why do you need an HGV licence to drive a car?

If you can drive a small passenger carrying vehicle on a (B) car licence - and you can drive a meduim to large vehicle on a (D) licence then you should have a large car licence in order to drive an RV - but there isn't one, is there? Carry on with that theme - if a coach driver can drive a coach with 40 or 50 people on board - why is he not allowed to drive either an RV or an HGV?

George Telford was not 'the Bible' on this subject, the written Laws of this Country and the EU are the 'Bible' to be obeyed BUT he did take the time and effort to study it in depth and came up with some remarkable answers - which even the Police and other Authorities had to concur with.

The very simple answer is that the Law is in disarray - very few people know what is actually needed although most of us agree that the only safe way to proceed is by covering all aspects of safety - and hoping beyond hope that the RVDA gets some kind of legible, legal and sensible legislation through the system before some poor 'beggar' gets killed!

As a very last afterthought - I heard yesterday that my Insurance Company had just downgraded my RV insurance from a 'Commercial' vehicle banding at £1200 per year insurance to a 'Car' banding at £500 per year. I am with the NFU - and when I phoned to check that their facts were correct, I was assured that they were perfectly satisfied that MY RV was now considered to be a CAR!
 
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Thanks Dick

I stand corrected re the delay between taking the licences but I am certain that I did read about it some where maybe someone else may know, could it be to do with age? i.e from the 1997 licence restrictions re 3500kgs!

Thanks again

Regards Pat.
 
Lets face it, there was a time when every thing was honky dory every one had a provisional or a full license that covered just about every thing with wheels or tracks on,
then one sunny bright morning some numb nut woke up and thought! I will get rid of the old system and invent a new one, and in doing so turned the driving world upside down, the argument used was to bring us into line with the EU,what a load of cobblers, and with some thought to the uproar it would create they granted Grandfathers rights to some of us, and all was quiet for a few years,then along comes another political screw driver who thought anyone taking the test after a certain date should not be allowed to drive anything bigger than a certain weight,
Why what happened to these people who took there test after this date? did they get less professional tuition or substandard test, or were they just less skilled all of a sudden, who knows I don't!!
amongst all this was the idiot who decided that vehicles need re classification from Lorries to HGV, from Busses to PSV, From cars to PLG from Heavy Motor cars to ????????? Oooh he forgot that one!!!!
And so it goes on the Mad debate about rules that didnt need changing in the first place
All those of you out there who says its the Drivers fault should really think again
one bright morning Mr I know it all, will suggest perhaps that a heavy motor car is a 4 x 4 and all drivers who have them need to retake another test to carry on driving what theve been driving since the year dot
and all drivers who pass after 2010 can only drive electric cars and push bikes weighing less than 500 kilos till there 45:Eeek:
Its firmly the bureaucrats and Nanny state syndrome thats at fault
Geo
 
Need people like you with a bit of sense in Parliament & the civil service Geo :BigGrin:

"Furthermore what licence is required when towing a car on a trailer/'A' frame?"

On any vehicle under the magic 7.5tonnes you are allowed to tow a trailer taking your maximum weight upto 8250kg.
This fact is all that has stopped me from buying an RV to use on my car licence because there arent many cars that you can A frame that are that light (under 750kg) and I do need to tow a car for shopping trips etc because the wife cant walk very far without using her small disability scooter.

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Mo & Dick. Just changing the subject slightly. I used to insure all my vehicles with the NFU because I am in the Ag Industry and It was cheaper to. About three years ago they wrote and told me that they could no longer offer me Breakdown cover to go with my Bessacarr Motorhome insurance as they had just realised that I was over the magical 3500kg and the breakdown service they use ( I think the RAC) couldnt recover over that weight. I had to go with Safeguard who do offer Breakdown cover on any weight vehicle, the silly thing is they also use the RAC but they use the commercial section which are able to pull in heavier vehicles. Seems quite crazy. How do you manage for breakdown cover or dont you ? just interested.
 
As a very last afterthought - I heard yesterday that my Insurance Company had just downgraded my RV insurance from a 'Commercial' vehicle banding at £1200 per year insurance to a 'Car' banding at £500 per year. I am with the NFU - and when I phoned to check that their facts were correct, I was assured that they were perfectly satisfied that MY RV was now considered to be a CAR!
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Hi Dick,

I read your post with interest so emailed NFU.

Unfortunately, this was their reply :-

All motorhomes are now insured on a private car policy based on the engine size of the vehicle. We previously insured motorhomes on a commercial vehicle policy based on GVW but this was changed over a year ago.

Your vehicle is currently insured on a private car policy and therefore will not be changed.
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So, whilst this confirms your statement, it looks like my premium will still be £1,300 this year. :cry:

I would be interested to know what value you have insured your RV for Dick (PM me?) - mine was for £130k

Paul
 
Jim said:
Mr Eubank could have taken his C in his truck had he wished to. But why can I not take a C licence test in a 10 ton motorhome?.
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Is it because the legislation defining a suitable vehicle is quite clear?
I've no idea where to find it but when I was training for my class C the instructor said that the vehicle has to be manual of a certain weight (17 tons springs to mind) and is actually changing to requiring a box vehicle with an 8 speed split gearbox.
Even it were allowed I wouldn't fancy trying to do the reversing test in a LHD vehicle!

Cheers
Doug
 
Yet another example of nonsensical rules. you can drive 8.25 total mass with a swinging bit in the middle, but 7.6 ton ridgid OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO,you wouldnt pay them in buttons would you, they gave you the extra 750 Kilo in case you want to use your RV and garden trailor to go to the tip:Rofl1::Rofl1:
There is the odd little car out ther Tony the french liegier about 500kg diesel you can quite easly fit a disability scooter rack on the back of an RV
My RV weighs in at 6.4 ton fully loaded, 30 foot Coachmen Mirada
and im looking at BIGGER ones :Rofl1::Rofl1:
Geo
 
hgv test

to have a hgv liecence in 20008 theory test hazard perception test then you have got to drive a rigid box lorry with a spliter box block changes etc

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Hi Tony

I am 'breakdown' covered by the Greenflag 'Mayday' system through Caravan Club Membership. I have asked several times and been re-assured several times that there is no size limit to the Greenflag policy.

Hi Paul

My 3 year old (going in for it's first MOT on Monday) Monaco is valued at £98,000 - (although it is worth more - but Mo gets VAT exemption through disability and therefore I always quote VAT-free). I have the 5.9 Litre diesel engine and a 60% No claims bonus, (protected), single named driver (Me) and a voluntary £250 excess - I also now have my car and car-transporter trailer on the same policy.
 
My 3 year old (going in for it's first MOT on Monday) Monaco is valued at £98,000 - (although it is worth more - but Mo gets VAT exemption through disability and therefore I always quote VAT-free). I have the 5.9 Litre diesel engine and a 60% No claims bonus, (protected), single named driver (Me) and a voluntary £250 excess - I also now have my car and car-transporter trailer on the same policy.
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.....me thinks NFU are screwing me then. :Angry:

Paul
 
Slow down for a couple of days yet, Paul - I haven't got my policy or quote yet. I reckon they are talking about £500 for the RV BUT I don't yet know if that includes the car and trailer - or is in excess of the car and trailer.

As I said I only found out about it yesterday - but I will keep you informed.
 
Hi,

As a matter of interest, could you all tell me which regulations you have read that make the class of vehicle ambiguous?

Thanks
 
Dick. when I was with the NFU and originally towing a car on a trailer and more recently a Car on an A frame my local group secretary made a point when I asked that the car is always covered by its own insurance. Cant remember wether I had to get them to cover the trailer also as an addition to the car for theft and damage. Worth checking also that whilst being towed the car is adequately covered ie still fully comp or does it revert to just third party whilst being towed. I still have my car insured with the NFU so will have to check that point myself.
>
Geo. Is that all a Coachman weighs ? Is that with slideouts? I was always under the impression that they were nearer 7.5 tonne. If thats the case you could just about tow a smallish car on an A frame. Our Agila goes around 1050kg. which would be a little too big.
>
We personally wouldnt enjoy our motorhoming so much without the small car parked alongside. We park the motorhome up on a site for a few days and explore the countryside and local towns and villages all around the area before moving on. We are free to go round the local shops without worrying where we are going to park even our 7.5m Bessacarr let alone a 10m + RV. We can go to a pub out in the sticks for a meal of an evening and the missus can drive the car home whereas she would never get behind the wheel of the Motorhome to get us back. We had a month in Benidorm one christmas at El Raco and travelled 3000 miles whilst there exploring all the local mountain roads and tracks and local beaches. If we had tried to leave our pitch in the motorhome for the day we would have lost it because the site was packed out and somebody would have grabbed it. No, I couldnt manage without the car, if they ban A frames eventually I shall have to get another trailer. I used to dread trailing, having to find somewhere to safely secure the trailer everywhere we stopped in case it got pinched. The A frame is so hassle free, I just stow it in front of the Bessacarr passenger seat whilst on site out of the way.

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OK, so I have read this thread and am now puzzled about what I can drive. I had believed that I was restricted to 7.5 tons, but some comments make me think that there is no limit.

Being an oldie, my licence covers categories A, B, BE, C1, C1E, D1, D1E as well as my motor mower etc!:Blush:

I've been onto the DVLA website, and THINK I am limited to 7.5 tone, but those of you who ar more up in this area than I am may be able to sort this out for me - am I limited to 7.5 tons or not? Now resident in France, I am looking to get my licence exchanged for a French one, but would like to know where I stand before I do.:Doh:

Cheers

Bob
 
Well, I am disappointed, I thought that people would be falling over themselves to point me in the direction of ambiguity!! Come on all of you that think it is a grey area 'SHOW ME' please!!!!!:Eek!:
 
Hi Bob

There are several areas where you can get info on what you licence you need to drive which vehicle BUt as far as motorhomes are concerned the easiest to understand is at this link:

Link Removed

Not wishing to teach you to suck eggs, as the saying goes - the term that you used to understand as "gross vehicle weight" - got changed to "maximum authorised mass" - which is now known as mtplm or: maximum technical permitted laden mass.

In essence:

You (having passed your test before 1 Jan 1997) can drive a vehicle up to a maximum of 7½ tons on your (B) car licence.
When you reach the age of 70 you are only allowed to drive up to 3½ tons but you have to re-apply every three years.
If you still wish to drive over 3½ tons you need to submit a medical test every three years with your renewal application.

With your C1 + E you can also tow a trailer weighing more than ¾ ton - up to the maximum weight allowed to be towed by your primary tow vehicle (85%, I think) which means you can drive something like a maximum weight 12 tons of vehicle and trailer.
 
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Spartacus

For the sake of clarity - and to save us pulling out every book and Statutory Instruction from DVLA, SMMT, OPSI and a host of other - what ambiguity are you going on about?
 
Moandick,

Well, it appears that a lot of people are constantly referring to HGV's when the driving licence regs specifically refer to motor vehicles (of which a motorhome is one) of varying weights. I just cannot see where the grey area is and I personally think it is extemely misleading to say that there is a grey area. :Wink:

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[FONT=&quot]there are plenty of posts about this. George Telford most often referred to a "grey area", some quotes of his and others are as follows:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] There as only ever been one attempted prosecution for someone driving a motorhome which was over the licence holders "entitlement" here is a post I made elsewhere that ran and ran.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [b:9eec48f2ca]I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that’s the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of “I’ll get back to you” and they never have!

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.[/b:9eec48f2ca]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] I have since been in contact with VOSA, Construction and Use depts, Ministry of transport and several other goverment agencies. Interestingly they all agree with what I say above.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] The DVLA are the only body that are "squirming" asked about licencing for large motorhomes and they send a leaflet which clearly states that it is only their interpretation of the law. (ie that 3.5 Tonne and 7.5 tonne [b:9eec48f2ca]goods vehicle[/b:9eec48f2ca] limits apply to motorhomes) I have asked them to quote the actual law that they are trying to expound in their leaflet.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] After many "lost enquiries" I sent one registered which trhey had to answer this eventually made its way thru policy and the legal depts.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] End result ? they still have not quoted a law that covers motorhomes, campervans etc, all the other goverment depts agree that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and therefore not restricted in weight/licencing.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]In the same thread he wrote

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] In the case of motorhomes there are no weight limits, according to all goverment depts bar one, the DVLA are the only people who claim that a motorhome must fit a weight category and need a hgv licence when over 7.5 Tonnes, when pressed they cannot quote the law which backs it up, their legal dept could not quote the law either and came back with the rather childish retort that they do not have to tell me anything, even though thats the whole point of their existence.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] All the other evidence and LAW says different.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] If you do not want to drive one, then dont. If you want to persuade anyone that it is illegal then show me the law. Not one goverment Dept can show any reason why I cannot drive a motorhome that is heavier than 7.5 tonnes

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] The DVLA
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Construction and Use
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Ministryof Transport
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Dept of Transport
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] The Police Transport section
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Vehicle Inspectorate
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] VOSA
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] The Crown Prosecution Service

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] (see above dropped the only case ever like a hot potato, due to lack of evidence, actually all the evidence is still there it was lack of a relevent law that buggered them up)

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] If none of the above can say you are not allowed to drive it how would the insurance company prove otherwise? In fact most of the above actually agree with what I say, that there is no restriction on motorhomes, ring a few yourself and find out.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] I am not saying it is even sensible to drive a large motorhome, I would cope, many others would not, a lot of people cannot even cope with the vehicles they are licenced for !


[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]And Elswhere[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I dont even think they have a "grey" leg to stand on, there just doesnt appear to be a weight category for motorhomes, the people who decide weights etc say if none is written in law for a particular application, then construction and use says its 18 Tonnes on a single axle and cant remember exactly what they said for mutliple axles (44 Tonnes?)

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] There are set categories for many vehicles, the one that the DVLA are trying to push refer to goods vehicles, but the construction and Use people say that (most) motor caravans cannot be squeezed into a goods vehicle description. The ones that can would be classed as living vans which is different again, but does have good vehicle weights and licencing applied because of the commercial goods and burden carrying.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Also if the motorhome is a goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes it would need

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 1. a Tacho fitted operational and used ( there are some exemptions but none that apply to motorhomes )
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 2. Plating for weights according to UK law, Imported HGV have to be replated American motorhomes at 40ft and over 7.5 tonnes dont appear to be replated.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 3. HGV "MOT" testing
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 4. HGV are not allowed in outside lane on Motorway
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 5. HGV are restricted to 56 Mph

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Anyone know of a big American motorhomes, that fit the above description?

[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Eddievanbitz once wrote[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The last very big motorhome I had was 36'9" and it was coming up for three years old when I sold it. The guy that wanted to buy it asked if I would MOT it for them. Because of the size I took it to the DOT testing centre at Norton Fitzwarren, Taunton where I was told in no uncertain terms that it was NOT a HGV it only needed a Class 4 MOT, not a Class 7 so I should take it to a private garage and stop wasting their time! I argued that no garage locally could take that sized motorhome, again they disagreed and sent me off to a private garage that could accommodate my sized motorhome. (to be fair to them I have had bigger vehicles MOT'd there since (Class 4) I think the commandant that ran reception has retired, and they remembered that they are civil servants again)

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] A life long friend who is involved in the insurance industry investigated and tried to make arrangements to take his test in his RV and was told absolutely no way, and he would have to take it in a "HGV"

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] A customer who runs a large driver training school and has a 40' Monaco made enquiries with the Department Of Transport to see if it could be used to train and test people that wanted to drive large RV's again an emphatic no.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] DVLA say we need licence entitlement the Department of Transport say we don't I fail to see how an insurance company could refuse to cover and liability under these circumstances.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] As for litigation or prosecution? Imagine the Crown states that the motorhome was being driven illegally. The Department Of Transport refuses to test the motorhome, or lets you take a test in the motorhome, tells you to have a car Class 4 MOT on our motorhome not a HGV Class 7 No driving restrictions by way of limited hours and you don’t have to have a Taco on the motorhome either

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] I haven't had time to check so forgive me if I am wrong, but my memory tells me that as far as the DOT construction and use is concerned, motorhomes fall into the "other" category along with play buses and mobile libraries" The important phrase in all of this is "for reward"

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] For the record we drive a 30' Minnie Winnie C class RV and for our main holiday down on the Med somewhere, we tow our 23' Marlin RIB which makes us about 57' in total We have been driving for years and would happily take a test if there was one suitable for the type of vehicle that we own and drive, but we have no intention of learning about air lines, trailers, slippers and taco's

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Doesn't mean that we are right or wrong, it is our interpretation of very bad law, and until someone can point us to a clear, concise and definite piece of legislation we will keep enjoying our motorhome.


[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]George again[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] VOSA is the merger of the Vehicle Inspectorate (VI) and the Traffic Area Network (TAN) division of the Department for Transport (DfT). We have approximately 2,500 staff, 1,700 of which are based at our operational locations across Great Britain. The aim of the agency is to contribute to the improvement of the road safety and environmental standards, and to the reduction of vehicle crime.


[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] VOSA website

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Broadly speaking Bilge Rat is right, in that it can be classed as a living van, however just because a motorhome as a garage, it doesnt have to be classed a living van, here is the legal defination. direct from VOSA in the course of my research. Faxed recd by me 26th Jan 2004

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] FAO George Matthews

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Subject Definitions as requested


[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] "living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as living accomodation by one or more persons and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are clessed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Basically this is for Living and business, like a showmans van or say you did shows and carried stock, it is not applicable to a motorcaravan which is defined thus

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] "motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van)
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] which is constructed or adapted for the carraige of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanantly installed equipment the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users; Motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test puposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] BTW DVLA like point you in the direction of all these other depts, only thing is all these other depts actually say the opposite to DVLA

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] VOSA Also state that unless a Goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes is exempted then it must have a tacho fitted, I asked if motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes required a Tacho and was told no as it cannot be classed as a goods vehicle.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Marsham construction and use disagree with DVLA definition (and DVLA admit that Marsham decide on vehicle classification

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Ministry of Transport disagree

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Legislation does not agree with DVLA opinion and they cannot show where their definition is written in law. After months of correspondnce with DVLA they could not find a single shred of law that agrees with
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]them.

[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Someone else summed it up[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My license which is pre '87 doesn't mention weights only classes of vehicles. I believe this is called 'grand father rights' ?

It licences me to drive any motor vehicle, except a motor cycle, HGV or Public Service vehicle and a few other odd vehicles like track and road laying vehicles.

GT's argument was founded on the lack of a specific law regarding motorhomes, not the DVLA's interpretation of them, no one has been able to produce the law that states that motorhomes are weight and license restricted.

When I insured with NFU I specifically asked about this, I informed them about my license and they were happy with it.

My RV is registered PLG .. Private/ Light Goods , the same as a car, that is 'Private or Light Goods', not Private and Light Goods, and is PHG not Private /Heavy Goods ?

This argument has been running since I first joined MHFs now almost 4 years, my guess is it will still be running in another four, much as the A frame argument will.

However, as has been said many times before, absence of proof is not proof of absence.. I would love to see the relevant legislation, not an interpretation by the DVLA. or anyone else, no more lecturing or preaching, let's have some concrete facts.
[/FONT]​
 
Jim, I have read all of these posts and there is nothing in any of them which proves conclusively that a cat 'c' licence is not required for a motor vehicle in excess of 7500kg.

Again these posts refer to HGV/living van etc, which are ALL classified as motor vehicles for the purposes of the driving licence regulations.

It staggers me that people don't just read the actual regulation, not the C&U regs or Plating & Testing Regs, but the Driving Licence Regulations.

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996

See schedule 2 for classes of vehicle.
 
The grey area is where a previous member used to specialise - and the proof of it was within these posts but by now has probably been time-deleted. I assure you that the subject has been well and truly thrashed out by many members much more learned than me.

However I will try and paraphrase that which I remember.

In order to drive a vehicle over 7½ tons you are required to pass a C licence

In order to drive a vehicle over 7½ tons and tow a car you are required to take a C + E licence.

In order to drive a coach of the same size and dimension as an RV but to carry more people you are required to have a D licence.

The coach can be exactly the same chassis as the RV and can weigh exactly the same but a coach driver is not a class C licence and is therefore not allowed to drive an RV or an HGV.

I have a C + E Licence and can drive a 30 ton artic but I am not allowed to drive a coach that is smaller and weighs less than my RV.

At one stage a friend of ours could drive his RV on his class C licence but could not tow his car because he did not have the E bit to go with the C licence. However because of his age he could tow his car behind his 4x4 with his C1E licence!

Now to get to the really deep, dark grey bits that GT proved with the Police and Local Authority.

In my previous post, I tried to explain that in law, there are only two types of vehicle - in plain english - they are a car and a lorry.

An RV has already been proven NOT to be a lorry through various court cases etc, etc, etc and therefore should be classified as a motorcar. It is taxed. mot'ed and everything else as a motorcar. It is not subject to tachograph, speed laws, driver hours etc., etc., etc. and is now being classed as a car by all insurance companies.

All of this is proven fact:

however there is some debate as to whether you need to have a class C licence to drive a motor car - this is strictly down to a difference between proper Governmental rules and regulations and the legal and technical terms within those laws.

Currently the RVDA (apparently) is working with the DVLA and other bodies to clarify this situation as to the proper legality of the 7½ ton limit. I say apparently simply because the RVDA is a dealer group and I am not privvy to their workings.

So that leaves us several outstanding questions:

1: If I am driving a motorcar (albeit a very large and heavy one) why do I need the Class C + E Licence. Surely it would be more sensible to have a 'proper' motorhome type licence - even a coach drivers licence would be more appropriate to an RV than a Class C+E licence.

2: If I can drive a 30 ton artic why can I not drive a coach - or vice versa if I can drive a coach why can I not drive an RV? - after all, a coach is a coach is a coach, isnt it?

3: There is a fairly well known story that we have quoted previously where a chap was caught and stopped for driving an RV on his car licence - and the case was dropped for lack of evidence that the vehicle he was driving on a car licence was in fact an HGV.


In summary, whatever you may think of the people who are trying to sort out this very silly mess - there is a huge problem out there, whether you call it a grey area or whatever - it would appear that the situation is being discussed at Governmental level by some very influential people - and the end result should be a very logical and Black and White solution.

I can actually quote one very silly situation (and very definitely a grey area):

If you submit a motorcaravan (which weighs over 3½ tons) for MOT it will be mot'ed at class 4 level - i.e a car MOT. However, if you hang a bicycle on the back of that motorcaravan, you change the designation from motorcaravan to 'living van' and in that case it has to be tested as a class 7 MOT i.e an HGV!

The reason is quite simple - the powers that be have decided that a motorcaravan must contain within its wall everything that is necessary (and only what is necessary) in order to live in that motor caravan.

In their opinion you do not need a bicycle in order to live in that motorcaravan therefore you have turned it into a cargo carrying vehicle, ie an HGV. Taken to extremes that means that if you strap a pair of ski's onto the roof of that motorcaravan you have turned it into an HGV!

In order to stop such ridiculous stupidity the powers that be have delegated the decision as to whether your cycle carrying RV is an HGV to the honesty of the person presenting the vehicle for the test - or to the actual tester themselves. Who is going to police that situation? In other words a grey area!

And I say once again - the main grey area is whether the DVLA are allowed to state that the 7½ ton limit is actually legal as far as our rules and regulations are concerned.

From George Telford's painstaking work comes the following - you try and prove it wrong because nobody else can or has!!!!!!

In the case of motorhomes there are no weight limits, according to all goverment depts bar one, the DVLA are the only people who claim that a motorhome must fit a weight category and need a hgv licence when over 7.5 Tonnes, when pressed they cannot quote the law which backs it up, their legal dept could not quote the law either and came back with the rather childish retort that they do not have to tell me anything, even though thats the whole point of their existence.

All the other evidence and LAW says different.

If you do not want to drive one, then dont. If you want to persuade anyone that it is illegal then show me the law. Not one goverment Dept can show any reason why I cannot drive a motorhome that is heavier than 7.5 tonnes
The DVLA
Construction and Use
Ministryof Transport
Dept of Transport
The Police Transport section
Vehicle Inspectorate
VOSA
The Crown Prosecution Service

(see above dropped the only case ever like a hot potato, due to lack of evidence, actually all the evidence is still there it was lack of a relevent law that buggered them up)

If none of the above can say you are not allowed to drive it how would the insurance company prove otherwise? In fact most of the above actually agree with what I say, that there is no restriction on motorhomes, ring a few yourself and find out. Hence the reason why all insurance companies are now treating motorhomes as a car.

I am not saying it is even sensible to drive a large motorhome, I would cope, many others would not, a lot of people cannot even cope with the vehicles they are licenced for !
 
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Spartacus
In a previous post I refered to the re classification of motor vehicles, in a nut shell the term Heavy Motor Car has not been re classified and this was the old classification All Motor Homes were in, and if your car licence dosent cover your Motor Home there isnt one that will
Dick summed it up rather nice in a previous post the Motorhome irrespective of size or weight does not fit into any of the little boxes they made for other vehicles, they tried to encompass them in the now quoted All vehicles, but its quite clear a license does not exist that covers motor homes in their own right, and there is the crux of the matter, Motor Homes Do stand alone in the scheme of things, if you cant or wont except that as fact, then you never will be convinced
Do you realy think there is a traffic cop out there who hasnt heard of over 7.5 ton Rvs being driven on car licences, so why arn't there prosecutions galore, there has to be a reason
Geo
 
In the case of motorhomes there are no weight limits, according to all goverment depts bar one, the DVLA are the only people who claim that a motorhome must fit a weight category and need a hgv licence when over 7.5 Tonnes, when pressed they cannot quote the law which backs it up, their legal dept could not quote the law either and came back with the rather childish retort that they do not have to tell me anything, even though thats the whole point of their existence.

How can any person of reasonable intelligence agree with this? Of course a motorhome has a weight restriction, just look at the manufacturers plate!

I have read GT's posts and to me he just does not make sense, he clouds the issue with plating & testing regs, c&u regs, vehicle excise regs etc, when all you have to do is look at the categories in the driving licence regs!

With regard to Travelworld, has anybody seen the evidence? I suspect that the driver was only reported for using the 3rd lane of a motorway, when he was entitled to to so, that is probably the reason it was dropped.

With regard to his correspondence with various Govt dept's, has anybody seen copies of his letters, and more importantly the questions contained therein? has anyone seen the replies from these dept's?

For licensing purposes you should dismiss the term HGV and concentrate on permitted weights and categories C1, C1+E, C and C+E.

Regards S

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