Herald of free enterprise documentary

[Brains]

…..and numerous car carriers underestimating the free surface effect of bunker fuel in slack double bottom bunker tanks……

But at least in a PCC you only kill the crew, not hundreds or thousands of passengers

 

[cliffanger]

I was on the sister ship a week later and could appreciate how difficult it would be to survive once the ship rolled onto its side.

We were on the next ship that went out following the Herald. We watched it on the TV as we got into port - it was a huge shock. We didn’t look forward to the journey home.

We came back two days later, but I can’t remember seeing it - thank goodness.

 

[Lozsing]

I lost my Dad, Sister and Step Mum on that ferry , remember it like yesterday

 

[BikerGraham]

I lost my Dad, Sister and Step Mum on that ferry , remember it like yesterday

Sincerest sympathy and condolences to you.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Inverted icebergs
More above water than below it.
Hence inherently unstable

Only inherently unstable though. They have it all designed in to be safe in competent hands. A very stable ship (fully loaded 75,000 tonne bulk carrier) nearly broke up in mid Pacific in a storm due to systematically being overstressed with shear forces during loading - metre long fractures at the hatch corners. Ship was wet docked after discharge and two weeks of repairs to make seaworthy again. Chief mate and the Old man got blamed for it and hauled into the office for an interview without coffee and it was proven that on this occasion was loaded correctly. No further action.

I was that chief mate……..

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[BikerGraham]

Only inherently unstable though. They have it all designed in to be safe in competent hands. A very stable ship (fully loaded 75,000 tonne bulk carrier) nearly broke up in mid Pacific in a storm due to systematically being overstressed with shear forces during loading - metre long fractures at the hatch corners. Ship was wet docked after discharge and two weeks of repairs to make seaworthy again. Chief mate and the Old man got blamed for it and hauled into the office for an interview without coffee and it was proven that on this occasion was loaded correctly. No further action.

I was that chief mate……..

Nice one.

Mind you bet you were a bit worried, especially when you realised coffee wasn’t being offered

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Nice one.

Mind you bet you were a bit worried, especially when you realised coffee wasn’t being offered

Luckily the loading run plans were carefully recorded and kept in both my own log and the cargo log book which were produced together and matched.

 

[Brains]

Only inherently unstable though. They have it all designed in to be safe in competent hands. A very stable ship (fully loaded 75,000 tonne bulk carrier) nearly broke up in mid Pacific in a storm due to systematically being overstressed with shear forces during loading - metre long fractures at the hatch corners. Ship was wet docked after discharge and two weeks of repairs to make seaworthy again. Chief mate and the Old man got blamed for it and hauled into the office for an interview without coffee and it was proven that on this occasion was loaded correctly. No further action.

I was that chief mate……..

Angelicoussis ?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Angelicoussis ?

Nah….. one of my favourite companies when I was selling marine services. like nearly all modern Greeks, a very professional outift. I never dealt with a dodgy one, to be honest. You cannot reputsably charter a ship nowadays without a lot of compliance surveys. They have seriously upped their game from the bad old days of Stelmar etc…..

It was P&O

 

[Brains]

Nah….. one of my favourite companies when I was selling marine services. like nearly all modern Greeks, a very professional outift. I never dealt with a dodgy one, to be honest. You cannot reputably charter a ship nowadays without a lot of compliance surveys. They have seriously upped their game from the bad old days of Stelmar etc…..

It was P&O

Stelios made Ryan Air look like professionals!

I was always amazed his dad Loucas put up with him.
He massively hurt the reputation of the family, people were very wary of dealing with Troodos because of Stelios

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[DuxDeluxe]

Stelios made Ryan Air look like professionals!

I was always amazed his dad Loucas put up with him.
He massively hurt the reputation of the family, people were very wary of dealing with Troodos because of Stelios

Oh yes…… Latsis were a bit dodgy as well but CCM the successors called me in years ago as they were looking for professional auditing of their quality systems, standards, certification, everything.
Anyone trading to Europe, USA and other such countries needs to pass Port State Control inspection - even with that, there are about 5 a week detained in UK. Too expensive not to comply. So dodgy ships tend to trade around minor countries only…….

One thing I will say, is that nearly all Greek, Italian and even Turkish companies are passionate about ships and not glorified accountants

 

[Brains]

One thing I will say, is that nearly all Greek, Italian and even Turkish companies are passionate about ships and not glorified accountants

Aaaah, the age old question;
Is a ship a large piece of industrial machinery or is it an entity ?

Most of the originally Mediterranean origin owners will tell you one thing, most accountants will tell you the other.

 

[makems]

The week after this happend I was booked on the sister ship travelling with my wife and 3 kids down to Geneva where I would be working on a medium term project.
my wife was shitting herself whilst I assured her that it would be a very safe journey because i could guarantee all the crew would now be doing everything by the book.
(I hope they were, but in any case it was an uneventful trip )

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Most of the originally Mediterranean origin owners will tell you one thing, most accountants will tell you the other.

Spot on there. Best clients I ever dealt with. Peer to peer, not salesman stuff. Pity my old employer never understood that the marine business is a long term relationship business with long term rewards, rather than a “wham, bam, thank you ma’am” approach of a salesman on commission.

it was great being able to discuss the technical bits of ship in detail, plus a good “swing the lamp” session over a few beers afterwards - something you would never even dream about with Shell etc. etc (other oil majors and large commercial ship “owners”are available) plus you were dealing ex Captain to Captain or chief engineer. There was a natural bond

 

[Brains]

Spot on there. Best clients I ever dealt with. Peer to peer, not salesman stuff. Pity my old employer never understood that the marine business is a long term relationship business with long term rewards, rather than a “wham, bam, thank you ma’am” approach of a salesman on commission.

it was great being able to discuss the technical bits of ship in detail, plus a good “swing the lamp” session over a few beers afterwards - something you would never even dream about with Shell etc. etc (other oil majors and large commercial ship “owners”are available) plus you were dealing ex Captain to Captain or chief engineer. There was a natural bond

I also worked for a company that got taken over by non-shipping accountants who also could not understand than in shipping its all about what you know and who you know and trust is something that takes a generation or two to build up.

For several companies I personally dealt with 3 generations of the same family during my career and I have reports and correspondence to show that my great grandfather, grandfather and father were dealing with the same families back to the mid 1800's.

Try explaining that to an CEO accountant who can not understand why his new hotshot sales guy cant get a foot in the door, yet the old fart can waltz right in like he owns the place.

The Herald of Free Enterprise and many other similar 'accidents' can all be laid at the door of a company taken over by non-maritime people who think they are operating large bits of industrial machinery and not a ship.

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[DuxDeluxe]

I also worked for a company that got taken over by non-shipping accountants who also could not understand than in shipping its all about what you know and who you know and trust is something that takes a generation or two to build up.

For several companies I personally dealt with 3 generations of the same family during my career and I have reports and correspondence to show that my great grandfather, grandfather and father were dealing with the same families back to the mid 1800's.

Try explaining that to an CEO accountant who can not understand why his new hotshot sales guy cant get a foot in the door, yet the old fart can waltz right in like he owns the place.

The Herald of Free Enterprise and many other similar 'accidents' can all be laid at the door of a company taken over by non-maritime people who think they are operating large bits of industrial machinery and not a ship.

You absolutely nailed that one!!!

I left P&O due to poor maintenance standards and excessive cost cutting including flagging out and changing working conditions. Working in the services to shipowners/charterers etc business was great until about 2013 and I had developed very healthy and productive relationships with many clients, greatly expanding the business. Then a Russian took over as EVP and employed an over ambitious and under talented Brit as his sidekick/hatchet man. I had to fire my very well connected Indian sales assistant who was just being successful with the Indian ship managers for not producing the results. Much arguments but ended up with a bloke who happened to be one of his mates....... I took our US marine sales manager to a very very large cruise company in Miami, where I already picked up one smaller contract and was working toward a massive testing contract for all 104 ships which was within grasp. Had a great meeting and the procurement VP got on well with the US lady as well. Got back to Houston and the sidekick demanded to know why I had not come back with the contract (never considered the tendering bidding process........). He phoned the client, was told to go and do one. Client phoned me and said to never darken his doors ever again. Talking to my ex colleagues still working there, it is all about sales now instead of service and bigger sales over time. S glad I left and sorry to have whinged on about it, but still feel disgusted. They simply did not understand the business

 

[Spriddler]

Spot on there. Best clients I ever dealt with. Peer to peer, not salesman stuff. Pity my old employer never understood that the marine business is a long term relationship business with long term rewards, rather than a “wham, bam, thank you ma’am” approach of a salesman on commission.

The long-term aspect was brought home to me in the early 80's. As a newly-appointed export director I was in Europe discussing the renewal of a contract to supply my company's batteries to an international brand leader. Interestingly, they frequently used a new-to-me expression by referring to me as their 'business partner' rather than as a supplier.
A couple of years later I mentioned that 'cosy' reference from our first meeting whilst having dinner with their M.D. who reminded me that his company had as much dependence upon my company as mine did on his, saying "Of course we are business partners. Our costings, budget and marketing plans are all based upon our confidence in you, your company's products, your supply record and your honesty".

(However, in Algeria some months later after a week of negotiations I failed to secure a contract to supply a couple of million batteries to the Algerian military, most likely (it was later suggested to me) because the same 'cosy' company had arranged to pay an 'introduction commission' to the Algerian Buyer. Something my company would never do. ).

 

[Brains]

(However, in Algeria some months later after a week of negotiations I failed to secure a contract to supply a couple of million batteries to the Algerian military, most likely (it was later suggested to me) because the same 'cosy' company had arranged to pay an 'introduction commission' to the Algerian Buyer. Something my company would never do. ).

After I left a company and joined another, a new guy joined the new company as well.
We knew each other from our previous companies.

He then publicly accused me of 'bunging' the buyer in his previous company with a behind closed door 'commission'.
I denied it, and publically took it to my Divisional Director.
Bottom line to him was 'put up or shut up'. Obviously it was never provable.

I then found out, many years later, from a retired ex colleague that the story was true, my accuser was correct, except it was not me that offered/paid the bung, it was my former CEO!

By this point he had left my company, but I made a point of contacting him to tell him I now knew the correct version of the story.

 

[Pusscat]

please don’t read this if you think it may upset you. I’m not naming the ferry company or where it was, suffice to say it was an old ship on a crossing to a European country. A bit of catharsis to follow…

Myself and my heavily pregnant sister were on a car ferry some 30 odd years ago. Delayed so it turned into a night crossing. We were kindly given a cabin due to her condition. We were woken at around midnight with a scream and a bash at the door and a ‘get out’. Someone had set a fire in the lower decks, I think from the records, the first mayday had been sent out around fifteen minutes earlier.

Opening that cabin door to brown acrid smoke, not being able to see the ceiling of the corridor, the words I said to my sister were ’we need to get out, I think the ship’s on fire’. Crawling on hands and knees for 3/4 the length of the ship along corridors Some of it over broken glass. Things that happened on that journey and what we encountered along the way have had an effect that has lasted till this day. Eventually stopping breathing halfway up a stairwell and being pulled out that minute by people with breathing apparatus still haunts me.. Then joining others for a a couple of minutes recovery, seeing the faces, people in panic, some calmly making sure others were OK, people just stood still, children hysterical, a bloodied trucker who’d been trapped and had to break a door to escape. Then being told we had to move on…up and out. The outside decks were full, it felt weirdly like turning up to a bizarre party too late…Having to step over someone who’d been far less fortunate to get to a couple of life jackets.

a helicopter rescue and we were then landed at a hospital for checks, x rays etc. took days for the black plastic lining to come out of our noses.

Most people didn’t have cabins and were in the lounges at the time, that act of kindness to give us a cabin meant we were lower in the ship and were some of the last to be aware, we’d been sound asleep after a long car journey. No alarms, we are so grateful for who ever ran by the door.

Because of the deaths and that the fire had been started deliberately in one of the lowest cabins, we were ‘amusingly’ labeled ‘murder suspects’, were finger printed, interviewed several times by CID, questioned again because our accounts were so detailed as to be ‘questionable’ but all was corroborated.

we asked, why oh why were exit signs and exit route lines only at eye level? At one point when we must have entered a hallway and we could hear people choking. I’d called out for everyone to get on hands and knees, you couldn’t breath standing up, you certainly couldn’t see…at least if they had signs at floor level you get some orientation.

months of nightmares followed, night terrors, sleepwalking and opening the bedroom door to be be back on the ship. Being woken by rapid knocking at the door. Guilt was a big thing too. But we were so very lucky.

We hand over so much trust when we travel. , yes, I do travel on ferries now but I’m always aware of exits and escape routes. It can all collapse very quickly, and I know how I react personally now to drawn out life challenging situation which surprisingly is of some comfort. Thankfully I think most eventualities are controlled but the action of ‘man’ still remains a major weak point. Greed, arrogance or plain good old stupidity will always be our downfall.

incidentally, I went to my doc at the time, tried to explain things, the continuing months of problems I was experiencing and was told he could refer me to some one but that he thought I was a big boy and didn’t need it. 30 odd years later I was diagnosed with PTSD along with moderate / severe depression and anxiety and eventually had several years of treatments. How things have changed!

 

[DuxDeluxe]

(However, in Algeria some months later after a week of negotiations I failed to secure a contract to supply a couple of million batteries to the Algerian military, most likely (it was later suggested to me) because the same 'cosy' company had arranged to pay an 'introduction commission' to the Algerian Buyer. Something my company would never do. ).

United nations..... oil for food deal. Corrupt right to the very top and the senior diplomat, Benon Sevan who was actually caught (thanks in a big part to mine and my boss' evidence) was promptly given indefinite leave but still on a retainer by Boutros Boutros Ghali so that nobody could touch him as he still had diplomatic immunity. Eventually fled to Northern Cyprus where he was even more untouchable. Cost our company millions of dollars and made the "winning"company even more millions with a higher winning bid. All in the public domain now, if you are really bored

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[Detnor]

I was fortunate, in 20 years only had one serious event, big fire and all passengers off. The training kicks in and nobody died, we sailed back to Miami and the ship had a huge number of workers on to refurbish. Less than a week later we sailed full again, only to have a stowaway who killed her 18month old daughter. The crew suffer the same trauma as the passengers, look at the heroic work of the crew of the MV Norland in the Falklands.

 

[The Dotties]

But you are old.

Didn’t you use to drive a chariot

I knew you wouldn't let me down

 

[Stonemags76]

I wanted to watch the documentary, but now I can’t find it on My5?

 

[Brains]

please don’t read this if you think it may upset you. I’m not naming the ferry company or where it was, suffice to say it was an old ship on a crossing to a European country. A bit of catharsis to follow…

Myself and my heavily pregnant sister were on a car ferry some 30 odd years ago. Delayed so it turned into a night crossing. We were kindly given a cabin due to her condition. We were woken at around midnight with a scream and a bash at the door and a ‘get out’. Someone had set a fire in the lower decks, I think from the records, the first mayday had been sent out around fifteen minutes earlier.

Opening that cabin door to brown acrid smoke, not being able to see the ceiling of the corridor, the words I said to my sister were ’we need to get out, I think the ship’s on fire’. Crawling on hands and knees for 3/4 the length of the ship along corridors Some of it over broken glass. Things that happened on that journey and what we encountered along the way have had an effect that has lasted till this day. Eventually stopping breathing halfway up a stairwell and being pulled out that minute by people with breathing apparatus still haunts me.. Then joining others for a a couple of minutes recovery, seeing the faces, people in panic, some calmly making sure others were OK, people just stood still, children hysterical, a bloodied trucker who’d been trapped and had to break a door to escape. Then being told we had to move on…up and out. The outside decks were full, it felt weirdly like turning up to a bizarre party too late…Having to step over someone who’d been far less fortunate to get to a couple of life jackets.

a helicopter rescue and we were then landed at a hospital for checks, x rays etc. took days for the black plastic lining to come out of our noses.

Most people didn’t have cabins and were in the lounges at the time, that act of kindness to give us a cabin meant we were lower in the ship and were some of the last to be aware, we’d been sound asleep after a long car journey. No alarms, we are so grateful for who ever ran by the door.

Because of the deaths and that the fire had been started deliberately in one of the lowest cabins, we were ‘amusingly’ labeled ‘murder suspects’, were finger printed, interviewed several times by CID, questioned again because our accounts were so detailed as to be ‘questionable’ but all was corroborated.

we asked, why oh why were exit signs and exit route lines only at eye level? At one point when we must have entered a hallway and we could hear people choking. I’d called out for everyone to get on hands and knees, you couldn’t breath standing up, you certainly couldn’t see…at least if they had signs at floor level you get some orientation.

months of nightmares followed, night terrors, sleepwalking and opening the bedroom door to be be back on the ship. Being woken by rapid knocking at the door. Guilt was a big thing too. But we were so very lucky.

We hand over so much trust when we travel. , yes, I do travel on ferries now but I’m always aware of exits and escape routes. It can all collapse very quickly, and I know how I react personally now to drawn out life challenging situation which surprisingly is of some comfort. Thankfully I think most eventualities are controlled but the action of ‘man’ still remains a major weak point. Greed, arrogance or plain good old stupidity will always be our downfall.

incidentally, I went to my doc at the time, tried to explain things, the continuing months of problems I was experiencing and was told he could refer me to some one but that he thought I was a big boy and didn’t need it. 30 odd years later I was diagnosed with PTSD along with moderate / severe depression and anxiety and eventually had several years of treatments. How things have changed!

I really feel for you on this one, a horrific experience.
Obviously us ex shipping folk don't even need to look this one up as we can name the ship and operator from your description. From memory this genuinely was an 'accident' as the fire was started by an arsonist.

I think this just goes to show that in any RoRo, Passenger ship or even a land based hotel, you MUST know your way out, in the dark. I have always made a point of knowing, and telling my wife or other travelling companions. Maybe they think I'm paranoid, but stories like yours prove the point. You only have to be right once.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I knew you wouldn't let me down

I try not to as you know

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[DuxDeluxe]

I really feel for you on this one, a horrific experience.
Obviously us ex shipping folk don't even need to look this one up as we can name the ship and operator from your description. From memory this genuinely was an 'accident' as the fire was started by an arsonist.

I think this just goes to show that in any RoRo, Passenger ship or even a land based hotel, you MUST know your way out, in the dark. I have always made a point of knowing, and telling my wife or other travelling companions. Maybe they think I'm paranoid, but stories like yours prove the point. You only have to be right once.

I still do it when checking into a hotel, going on a ferry or even visiting an office. It could save a life as well as your own