Help. Batteries? Engine? God???

[Figaro]

This thread is more entertaining than strictly

PS hope you get your batteries sorted soon

 

[movan]

Yes. scally

I don't understand much but that is what I thought and why I went in to buy a new one.

Thank you. It does help.

I HAVE learned not to go to him for a new one as I asked him re the connection of the leisure batteries to the engine battery and he said he didn't know about such things, I need a caravan place.

 

[autorouter]

Before I go on and on can you tell me something. If the engine is running.. (I have an engine, 2 leisure batteries quite new, 2 solar panels, a battery master)......... and a garage man puts a multimeter or whatever it's called on the engine b, and checks and says if battery receiving powerand says, therefore, 'No. You don't need a new engine battery, it' s good and receiving power. And I say, 'Yes. But it' s receiving power from leisure battery I think cos panel indicator flashing that leisure batteries are GIVING OUT 6.3 V.! '

He says,' Oh, I know nothing about leisure batteries. '

Every vehicle, including a motorhome, has an alternator that produces electrical power when the engine is running, and charges the starter battery. In a motorhome, the leisure battery connects to the starter battery when the engine is running, and the alternator charges both batteries at the same time.

If the alternator isn't working, when the engine is running the leisure battery still connects to the starter battery. In that case, if the leisure battery is fully charged and the starter battery isn't, then amps will flow from the leisure battery to the starter battery. That would show on the panel indicator as amps going out of the leisure battery. But it would be Amps not Volts going out of the leisure battery.

An autoelectrician who didn't know about leisure batteries might mistake power from the leisure batteries for power from the alternator. It's easy to tell which is which. For example, if he pulled the leisure battery main fuse, to cut off the leisure battery, then he could tell from the starter battery voltage whether the alternator was working or not.

 

[movan]

That would show on the panel indicator as amps going out of the leisure battery. But it would be Amps not Volts going out of the leisure battery.

An autoelectrician who didn't know about leisure batteries might mistake power from the leisure batteries for power from the alternator. It's easy to tell which is which. For example, if he pulled the leisure battery main fuse, to cut off the leisure battery, then he could tell from the starter battery voltage whether the alternator was working or not.

THANK YOU.

That's what I thought and that's why I said about the panel flashing a discharge of 6.3 (must have been amps, sorry). I actually said to him should I not remove the fuse to disconnect the leisure batteries, but he just maintained he didn't know about leisure batteries.... I thought it must be a daft question or he would have taken it further.

Thank you.

 

[Badknee]

Oh my love I wish we were closer and I could help you. Ok, let’s start with the engine battery. This should be stood at 12.4 volts then when the engine is running go up to 14.3 volts, this means the alternator is charging.
The same should happen to the leisure batteries after a short time as the battery master passes voltage over. I think you need a motorhome clued up auto electrician.

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[JockandRita]

movan. If you don't tell us where you are Joy, none of us willing to assist you are able to.

What you are experiencing is not difficult to solve, but not knowing where you are, makes it very difficult for those willing, to help you out.
It doesn't need to be an exact location, ie, a rough location will do for folks to know if they are within helping distance.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[andy63]

If the alternator isn't working, when the engine is running the leisure battery still connects to the starter battery.

I dont get that statement.. the joining of the two battery banks is dependant on a signal..if the alternator isn't working there will be no signal and no joining of the two banks..
Or am I missing a point somewhere..??
Andy

 

[autorouter]

I dont get that statement.. the joining of the two battery banks is dependant on a signal..if the alternator isn't working there will be no signal and no joining of the two banks..

If it has totally failed, you are right, there'll be no D+ signal so the split charge relay won't trigger. However there could easily be other faults where it doesn't produce enough to charge the batteries, but the D+ signal is still active. I'm no expert on alternators, that's only my guess.

 

[Sandancers]

I dont get that statement.. the joining of the two battery banks is dependant on a signal..if the alternator isn't working there will be no signal and no joining of the two banks..
Or am I missing a point somewhere..??
Andy

I have mounted directly in my line of sight two panel voltmeters, one across the starter battery terminals and one across the leisure battery terminals these are always on as they take no current from the batteries. Therefore I can see at all times what the voltage in each battery is.

We don't have B2B or anything like that fitted, just the normal Chausson relays to charge each battery.

I can say that after a drive both batteries will be charged at up to 14.5v with the engine ticking over and when the engine is switched off they will both discharge to 12.8v / 12.9v after a period of time. If I now switch the ignition to pre-ignition the starter motor battery voltage will drop to 12.4 / 12.5 volts. When the engine starts cranking the starter battery voltage will go down to say 11.5v. BUT the leisure battery voltage does NOT drop ! If the leisure battery was somehow was wired to supply voltage to "top up" the starter battery I would have expected to see it happen then.

Also, if there was some form of connection from the leisure batteries to the starter batteries then if you left the side-lights on, for instance, you would find that your starter battery AND leisure battery were drained in the morning, but I have not heard of anyone reporting that.

 

[pappajohn]

Think your leisure battery is trying to start your engine and its not built for fast output to starter motor.

It wouldnt try for long..... 300 amps starter current through a 1 or 2mmsq wire and the wire itself would melt in seconds, if that long.

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[Steve and Pam]

Before I go on and on can you tell me something. If the engine is running.. (I have an engine, 2 leisure batteries quite new, 2 solar panels, a battery master)

A lot of posters seem to have missed this.

 

[autorouter]

When the engine starts cranking the starter battery voltage will go down to say 11.5v. BUT the leisure battery voltage does NOT drop ! If the leisure battery was somehow was wired to supply voltage to "top up" the starter battery I would have expected to see it happen then.

That's the difference between the ignition signal and the D+ signal. If the split charge relay is triggered by the D+, it doesn't turn on until the engine is running and the starter motor has stopped, and by that time the alternator has powered up enough to send charge into both batteries.

 

[pappajohn]

A lot of posters seem to have missed this.

Battery master only trickle charges the engine battery at 2amps when the engine battery drops a set amount below the leisure battery. It neither can or could carry the starter amperage.
A B2B charger is one way only... Engine to leisure.

 

[Sandancers]

That's the difference between the ignition signal and the D+ signal. If the split charge relay is triggered by the D+, it doesn't turn on until the engine is running and the starter motor has stopped, and by that time the alternator has powered up enough to send charge into both batteries.

Maybe I'm am reading it wrong, but did not Joy say that there was a current of 6.3A from the leisure battery into the starter battery ?

If so, what conditions of engine starting / running / not running would cause that to happen ?

 

[Eggs]

Maybe I'm am reading it wrong, but did not Joy say that there was a current of 6.3A from the leisure battery into the starter battery ?

If so, what conditions of engine starting / running / not running would cause that to happen ?

No. Joy didn't say that.

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[autorouter]

Maybe I'm am reading it wrong, but did not Joy say that there was a current of 6.3A from the leisure battery into the starter battery ?

If so, what conditions of engine starting / running / not running would cause that to happen ?

I was trying to imagine what could cause a 6.3A current from the leisure battery to the starter battery, while the engine was running, which is what the OP described. I thought that if the alternator failed to produce charge, but still sent out the D+ signal to trigger the split charge relay and connect the two batteries, then charge might flow from a fully charged leisure battery to a partly discharged starter battery.

I'm sure the gods of chaos and misrule can conjure up other more fiendish scenarios, but that's what I'd be checking first.

 

[Sandancers]

No. Joy didn't say that.

Have a look at posting #34

 

[Sandancers]

I was trying to imagine what could cause a 6.3A current from the leisure battery to the starter battery, while the engine was running, which is what the OP described. I thought that if the alternator failed to produce charge, but still sent out the D+ signal to trigger the split charge relay and connect the two batteries, then charge might flow from a fully charged leisure battery to a partly discharged starter battery.

If that was the case would there not be a display on the dashboard to say "alternator not charging"?

 

[steveh57]

I was trying to imagine what could cause a 6.3A current from the leisure battery to the starter battery, while the engine was running, which is what the OP described. I thought that if the alternator failed to produce charge, but still sent out the D+ signal to trigger the split charge relay and connect the two batteries, then charge might flow from a fully charged leisure battery to a partly discharged starter battery.

Should you not see an ignition warning light as well?

 

[Abacist]

Its hardly my place to say this but eddievanbitz business is as an installer of selected products like solar panels, alarms, immobilisers, solar controllers, lithium batteries, inverters etc. He is not a general motorhome repair shop and does not instal customer owned products. I was told this when I spent over £3k having a load of new stuff installed in my motorhome. Its hardly appropriate to suggest that she contact Vanbitz in the circumstances but maybe not all members on here know this!

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[lunarman]

Battery master only trickle charges the engine battery at 2amps when the engine battery drops a set amount below the leisure battery. It neither can or could carry the starter amperage.
A B2B charger is one way only... Engine to leisure.

I agree that the Battery Master cannot supply the current required to start the vehicle. However in an earlier post Joy said that the mechanic measured the cab battery at 13.1 v(ithink that was the value) could that have been the voltage being suypplied from the leisure battery via the battery master without any current being drawn.

 

[Nanniemate]

movan. If you don't tell us where you are Joy, none of us willing to assist you are able to.

What you are experiencing is not difficult to solve, but not knowing where you are, makes it very difficult for those willing, to help you out.
It doesn't need to be an exact location, ie, a rough location will do for folks to know if they are within helping distance.

Cheers,

Jock.

I think she is Somerset area, Movan, where are you

 

[Winger]

@movan well that has to be a first.
Batteries, engine and God in the one sentence!
Don’t worry Joy. It’ll be sorted soon!

 

[mitzimad]

movan. Are you anywhere near Peterborough Joy? If so, send me a PM please, and I'll return with our contact and location details.

If your engine started, then the cab battery must have enough power, and like Spriddler, I would suspect a bad connection or earth to be the cause of intermittent starting.

Re the leisure batteries powering the cab battery? No. Once the cab battery reaches a certain voltage from the alternator, the split charge relay kicks in and sends that same charge to the leisure batteries, not the other way round.

If no solar power, and not on EHU, there is every chance your leisure batteries may be very low, but if as low as 6.2v................that means they will be kaput.

Jock.

on another thread jockaneezer was saying if you run cab bateery down and then turn oin ignition it suckes from the leisures which suggest the split charge is ignition rather than d plur operated

 

[mitzimad]

i doubt joy has a battery master as its the same van as ours and charges both batteries via the ebox

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[mitzimad]

i think youve got a flat engine battery get some one to disconnet the earth lead to the leisures and get it tested again thats if it will start without the leisures

 

[movan]

i doubt joy has a battery master as its the same van as ours and charges both batteries via the ebox

My paperwork shows Battery Master connected. I thought it said by VanBitz?

i think youve got a flat engine battery get some one to disconnet the earth lead to the leisures and get it tested again thats if it will start without the leisures

That is what I think is my first choice. . I wish I had been confident enough to argue that point with the first garage guy... It's just that I KNOW I havn't an indepth clue so lacked standing up to him.

I happened by chance, at a lovely garage which told me straight off that they don't do mhs, to meet the father of someone from Highbridge. I will try them again..... at the moment booked up weeks in advance.

I'm currently (oh noo why did I use that word ). in Somerset but youve all been marvellous and I have enough info to feel empowered... Thanks all.

Xx

 

[berni109]

Dont get confused with all of the possibilities of battery interconnections.
If it wont turnover every time you try the key its sounds like it's too little power in the starter battery or loose connection or a faulty earth.
The engine battery needs to come out of the vehicle and be charged up for at least a few hours then tested for cranking power - any reasonable garage should be able to do that. Result will be either a good battery or u need a new one.
I think u posted earlier that it initially wont turn over but then turns over/starts sometimes on the 3 or 4 try which points to the wiring being loose or a faulty earth. Some X250 ducato Van's have been reported to have faulty engine earth straps that could cause these symptoms depends how old your van is. Before u start paying someone to check all that get the battery checked properly.

 

[Riverbankannie]

I’m sure that eddievanbitz is the closest professional to you and of course the best. Sure to be mega busy but worth a ring.

 

[scally]

It wouldnt try for long..... 300 amps starter current through a 1 or 2mmsq wire and the wire itself would melt in seconds, if that long.

My link through the split relay is starter almost size

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